Simon the Digger vs Chimera (GRACE ENDED)

[BluudyManikin777]

Managed to get a second opinion, Acausality Type 4 does not grant protection to Probability Manipulation by default.

Simon should still have resistance to probability manipulation via type 2 acausality, as he has merged every single version of himself in the multiverse, including past and future versions. Since alternate universes in TTGL are alternate possibilities, and he doesn't exist anywhere else in the multiverse, he's capable of going forwards to a path he chooses, regardless of the change in the possibility of it happening. He's capable of Manipulating Probability himself, and as we've established, he has the same level of PM as Chimera, so therefore would cancel out

 

[N_Kardashev]

physics and math manip can def resist probability manip, then again when it all comes down to it whos higher into high 1-c

 

[Everything12]

Honestly you could probably argue True Gremlin is 12D.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

physics and math manip can def resist probability manip, then again when it all comes down to it whos higher into high 1-c

Simon is 1,920 times Infinity^3 times above baseline

 

[deonment]

Simon has type 4 acausal this would help from deadly probability ?

I swear the number of times I have seen this is far too many, no, acasuality type 4 does not help against probability manip, it objectively does not, while you may say but probability is a subset of fate/casuality, so is time stop to time manip but we don't let people who resist time manip to resist time stop without feats, same with resisting other stuff not letting you resist the sub-power of them, and thinking about it logically, why would working on a different system of cause and effect let you resist someone changing a coin flip to what they want it to be, it makes no sense

 

[DontTalkDT]

I have no idea honestly, so I am not sure if it can go past Simon's resistence or not.

Chimera's mind hax is strong enough to control every living being that ever existed, possibly throughout countless realities.

Using this logic, I think that only Chimera's Mind Hax would work on Simon.

Considering that Chimera doesn't have NPI and Simon is the materialisation of thoughts, the only way that she can deal damage to him is by striking the Mind, which she can do only through Mind Hax.
The other haxes like Soul Manipulation and Law Manipulation shouldn't affect him, or at least in my opinion.

Is there any good reason to believe he has no soul or that his soul is fundamentally different from the one he had as a normal human?

And thoughts are also governed by laws.

Simon is 1,920 times Infinity^3 times above baseline

That's still just infinity above baselines.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

That's still just infinity above baselines.

There are a lot of circumstances that make this such. Such as Simon integrating an infinite Multiverse, having infinite Spiral Power, and having a scaling chain, all that makes him that high

Anyways, Simon's best chance which was to use probability manipulation to increase the chance of him hitting his opponent, is just not available. Would being able to create a Pocket Reality help here?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Why does Simon have FTL as a power?

I have no idea why no one has removed it yet. Once Fandom is fixed for me I'll get onto that

 

[BluudyManikin777]

I have no idea why no one has removed it yet. Once Fandom is fixed for me I'll get onto that

I removed it, yesterday

 

[Everything12]

There are a lot of circumstances that make this such. Such as Simon integrating an infinite Multiverse, having infinite Spiral Power, and having a scaling chain, all that makes him that high

None of that matters in High 1-C.

 

[ThanatosX]

This match seems more based on the personal interpretations of how certain things works, so I'm going to explain my point of view regarding a couple of things.

Is there any good reason to believe he has no soul or that his soul is fundamentally different from the one he had as a normal human?

I have two problems regarding the Soul Hax working and defeating Simon:
1. Chimera has never affected the soul of a being made of thoughts. I can understand why attacking the mind of a thought might work, considering that thoughts come from the mind in the first place. But attacking the soul of a thought is a different thing, and in my opinion it would need at least a feat of her being able to do so to believe that she can actually do it.
2. Even if she is actually able to do so, I am not sure how that would actually put Simon down. Considering again that he is made of thoughts, Chimera would need to destroy his mind to actually kill him since the thoughts come from the mind, not the soul. Also, Low Godly and Immortality Type 3 might help, but I am not sure about this.

And thoughts are also governed by laws.

My problem with this is similiar to the Soul Hax. I know that thoughts are governed by laws, but form my understandings Chimera never actually shown to be able to apply this laws to thoughts or modify the laws that govern thoughts in the first place. The idea that the Law Hax would work on Simon is based on the supposition that Chimera would affect laws that, from what I know, she never shown to be able to affect.

This being said, I can understand the arguments in favor of Chimera too. I think that inputs from other knowledgeable members of both verses would help.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

None of that matters in High 1-C.

Are you saying he’s just baseline?

 

[Rez]

Are you saying he’s just baseline?

He is infinitely above baseline same as chimera

 

[BluudyManikin777]

He is infinitely above baseline same as chimera

No he’s not, he’s accepted as 3 infinities above baseline

 

[Rez]

No he’s not, he’s accepted as 3 infinities above baseline

That's still infinite multiple infinites from 2-A and above don't give higher ap

 

[BluudyManikin777]

That's still infinite multiple infinites from 2-A and above don't give higher ap

It’s 3 infinities, because a single infinity would be significantly affecting a single infinite 10/11 dimensional universe, two infinities would be an infinite collection of infinite universes, and another infinity would be having infinite Spiral Power on top of all of that. This is currently accepted by staff

 

[Rez]

It’s 3 infinities, because a single infinity would be significantly affecting a single infinite 10/11 dimensional universe, two infinities would be an infinite collection of infinite multiverses, and another infinity would be having infinite Spiral Power on top of all of that. This is currently accepted by staff

Yes and that doesn't mean anything in terms of ap 3 times infinite is still infinite

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Yes and that doesn't mean anything in terms of ap 3 times infinite is still infinite

You can have many more infinities above baseline, than just a single infinity. Just like how there’s Uncountably Infinite, where it’s Infinity^Infinity. In Simon’s case, he’s Infinity^3

 

[DontTalkDT]

You can have many more infinities above baseline, than just a single infinity. Just like how there’s Uncountably Infinite, where it’s Infinity^Infinity. In Simon’s case, he’s Infinity^3

infinity^3 = infinity

The difference between one level of infinity and the next is bigger than that. In non-rigorous terms, you would need an infinite exponent for that, like 2^infinite.

Anyways, Simon's best chance which was to use probability manipulation to increase the chance of him hitting his opponent, is just not available. Would being able to create a Pocket Reality help here?

Don't think so. Chimera would passively destroy it anyways.

I have two problems regarding the Soul Hax working and defeating Simon:
1. Chimera has never affected the soul of a being made of thoughts. I can understand why attacking the mind of a thought might work, considering that thoughts come from the mind in the first place. But attacking the soul of a thought is a different thing, and in my opinion it would need at least a feat of her being able to do so to believe that she can actually do it.
2. Even if she is actually able to do so, I am not sure how that would actually put Simon down. Considering again that he is made of thoughts, Chimera would need to destroy his mind to actually kill him since the thoughts come from the mind, not the soul. Also, Low Godly and Immortality Type 3 might help, but I am not sure about this.

1. That argument would only apply if the soul of a thought is fundamentally different from a soul of a human. Considering that Simon literally was a human originally, I see no reason to assume his soul transformed into something fundamentally different than what it originally was.
2. Similarly people life through their body not their soul, but destroying the soul still is lethal. It's just usually assumed to be a necessary component unless we have evidence of the opposite. I mean, if you kill a ghost by destroying its soul its thoughts don't remain either.

It would be different if it regenerated from something external, like the thoughts of other people or a concept, but I don't think a thought body implies immunity to regular soul damage.

My problem with this is similiar to the Soul Hax. I know that thoughts are governed by laws, but form my understandings Chimera never actually shown to be able to apply this laws to thoughts or modify the laws that govern thoughts in the first place. The idea that the Law Hax would work on Simon is based on the supposition that Chimera would affect laws that, from what I know, she never shown to be able to affect.

This being said, I can understand the arguments in favor of Chimera too. I think that inputs from other knowledgeable members of both verses would help.

Even if that were the case he would still be incapacitated, since he can't do anything whatsoever anymore once the laws are in place. He couldn't manipulate the world in any aspect Chimera's laws are governing it or that can be prevented by governing them. Since they govern the laws of physics, mathematics and occult (eg. souls and mortality) there isn't really anything he cna do anymore. He can't manifest himself or a robot physically, he can't manipulate probability, can't do anything with spacetime etc.

So at best, instead of dying, he is stuck in limbo forever.

I also still wonder if his mind resistance is strong enough to actually resist Chimera's mind attacks.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

infinity^3 = infinity

So significantly affecting an infinite Multiverse is treated as having equivalent potency to significantly affecting a single infinite universe?

 

[ThanatosX]

1. That argument would only apply if the soul of a thought is fundamentally different from a soul of a human. Considering that Simon literally was a human originally, I see no reason to assume his soul transformed into something fundamentally different than what it originally was.
2. Similarly people life through their body not their soul, but destroying the soul still is lethal. It's just usually assumed to be a necessary component unless we have evidence of the opposite. I mean, if you kill a ghost by destroying its soul its thoughts don't remain either.

It would be different if it regenerated from something external, like the thoughts of other people or a concept, but I don't think a thought body implies immunity to regular soul damage.


Even if that were the case he would still be incapacitated, since he can't do anything whatsoever anymore once the laws are in place. He couldn't manipulate the world in any aspect Chimera's laws are governing it or that can be prevented by governing them. Since they govern the laws of physics, mathematics and occult (eg. souls and mortality) there isn't really anything he cna do anymore. He can't manifest himself or a robot physically, he can't manipulate probability, can't do anything with spacetime etc.

So at best, instead of dying, he is stuck in limbo forever.

I also still wonder if his mind resistance is strong enough to actually resist Chimera's mind attacks.

I still don't agree with the Soul Hax, but I think that the Law Hax can be a viable way to incap if that's how she uses it.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

infinity^3 = infinity

Still haven't gotten an answer for this. So is significantly affecting an infinite multiverse, equivalent to significantly affecting a single infinite universe?

 

[Rez]

So significantly affecting an infinite Multiverse is treated as having equivalent potency to significantly affecting a single infinite universe?

No an infinite universe is just high 3-A and an infinite multiverse is 2-A structure doesn't matter if it's 3 infinite multiverses it's still gonna be same 2-A ap since infinite times 3 is still just infinite. Anything above 2-A is via dimensions stuff or maths and again infinite*3 is still just infinite

 

[BluudyManikin777]

No an infinite universe is just high 3-A and an infinite multiverse is 2-A structure doesn't matter if it's 3 infinite multiverses it's still gonna be same 2-A ap since infinite times 3 is still just infinite. Anything above 2-A is via dimensions stuff or maths and again infinite*3 is still just infinite

So significantly affecting a single 10/11D infinite universe is the same as significantly affecting a 10/11D infinite multiverse?

 

[Rez]

So significantly affecting a single 10/11D infinite universe is the same as significantly affecting a 10/11D infinite multiverse?

Significantly affecting an infinite universe 11d is not gonna be infinitely above baseline high 1-C without context. magic gods are Infinitely above because even when restricted to 1/∞ of their power they are still stated to be pretty much the same(well not really but I don't wanna even try to explain this part so here's the qoute from novel itself)

But, High Priest," cut in a girl's voice that sounded even younger and also childish. "Miss Zombie's theory is essentially the same as holding up opposing mirrors, right? By splitting up our power infinitely, we can intentionally weaken ourselves and avoid destroying the world whenever we move an arm or leg."

"What about it, Niang-Niang?"

"I'm just wondering if the symbol ∞ will really grow weaker when you split it up. I don't want to smash the world up like stained glass the first step I take. We're not like Othinus."

"It doesn't matter if it's a mere deception as long as it works. Just like a Moebius strip or a Klein bottle, some concepts are allowed to exist even if they can't be properly defined, Niang-Niang."

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Significantly affecting an infinite 11d is not gonna be infinitely above baseline high 1-C without context

Why is that so? The baseline of 11D is significantly affecting an 11D space that's at least the size of the observable universe, which is a finite size. An infinite sized 11D space would be infinitely above baseline, since the difference between any finite value and infinity, is literally infinity regardless. So basically what you're trying to say is that significantly affecting an 11D space the size of at least the observable universe, has the same potency as significantly affecting an 11D infinite space?

 

[Accelerate420]

I'm in agreement with all of DT's points here as someone who dabbles in both verses. There's nothing really saving Simon from being mind and soul haxed immediately upon gazing at Chimera, and the infinity baseline stuff doesn't matter when they're both infinitely above it (regardless of these made up infinity multiplies, as 4010000 x infinity is still infinity, and guess what, so is addition. )

Chimera's passive hax as well makes it so Simon never has any means of reaching nor having any affect on Chimera while all of Chimera's attacks will hit with 100% probability. All possible possibilities of negatives towards Chimera do not exist in any realities by virtue of Chimera existing, that's what it means to be a Magic God.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

There's nothing really saving Simon from being mind

The mind hax thing is still up for debate

Simon never has any means of reaching nor having any affect on Chimera while all of Chimera's attacks will hit with 100% probability

This has been mentioned before, but how many realities you can affect at once with probability manipulation doesn’t determine potency at all, it’s just range. Simon and Chimera have the same level of probability manipulation

this is stomp anyways, but I’m just saying

 

[Accelerate420]

The mind hax thing is still up for debate

This has been mentioned before, but how many realities you can affect at once with probability manipulation doesn’t determine potency at all, it’s just range. Simon and Chimera have the same level of probability manipulation

this is stomp anyways, but I’m just saying

Potency isn't what I'm arguing. I'm stating that they do not have the same level as Simon does not also eliminate all 100% negatives to debuff the opponents own probability.

They are not the same, the Magic Gods go a step further and affect both parties whereas Simons is only boosting his own chances, which would effectively already be 0 by their passive.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

They are not the same, the Magic Gods go a step further and affect both parties whereas Simons is only boosting his own chances

Simon can also do that, upscaling from the Anti-Spiral who can negate the probability of an opponent successfully blocking the attack. So Simon can affect both parties too. He increases his own chances of hitting and negates any chance of the opponent blocking it

 

[BluudyManikin777]

regardless of these made up infinity multiplies

Are you saying that significantly affecting an 11D infinite universe is the same as significantly affecting an 11D infinite multiverse?

 

[Zensum]

Hmmm... additionally, it doesn't seem like Simon has his probability manipulation at 100% always. It raises due to his spirit overtime and it's not an immediate passive, so it's useless here when he's forced to 100% failure instantly by Chimera merely existing. It looks like spiral energy is a process of evolution like a spiral, so it makes no sense for it to be 100% out the gate and it never has been to begin with right? Team Gurren had to fight overtime to increase it. Also, Anti spirals chances of negating aren't 100% either. Either way you look at it, both these characters are susceptible to having their probability countered and messed with, while the probability of 100% Magic God's can't be.

There's also the fact that Chimera's probability hax potency > 100% Othinus so all of this is probably a moot point anyways.

 

[Accelerate420]

Are you saying that significantly affecting an 11D infinite universe is the same as significantly affecting an 11D infinite multiverse?

On this site?
Yes. That's literally how this tiering system works.
Go bring it up with the staff if you disagree.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

it doesn't seem like Simon has his probability manipulation at 100% always. It raises due to his spirit overtime and it's not an immediate passive

Yes it is. He scales far above Kittan who could destroy the Death Spiral Machine, which had an absolute 0% chance in succeeding, and the Ashtanga, who can negate any chance of the opponent blocking. Simon was also shown to be able to fight one on one with the Anti-Spiral, who explicitly stated in the beginning of the fight, that the chances of Team Dai-Gurren winning in his universe are absolutely 0. This isn't hyperbole, considering that Granzeboma was completely undamaged by a barrage of lasers, and Yoko's bullets. Simon would need Probability Alteration active at all times to damage Anti-Spiral, as Anti-Spiral is the universe itself, according to Final Drill

It looks like spiral energy is a process of evolution like a spiral, so it makes no sense for it to be 100% out the gate and it never has been to begin with right?

Yeah, no. As I've already said, the Ashtanga can completely negate any possibility of the opponent dodging, and isn't implied to run on Spiral Power or anything similar. Simon (Post-Multiverse Labyrinth) is FAR superior to the Ashtanga, and Simon (Post-Apotheosis) is FAR superior to his PML self, via a scaling chain

Also, Anti spirals chances of negating aren't 100% either

Again, he did say that the chances of Team Dai-Gurren winning are absolutely 0. This also isn't him being superior in physical strength, as Anti-Spiral stated that he'd fight them on an equal playing field, which is corroborated by a tactic he uses called absolute despair, in which he proceeds to make his opponents feel horrible, by playing equal with them, and making them realize that winning is actually far beyond their reach

On this site?
Yes. That's literally how this tiering system works.

Could you actually explain why then?

 

[Heavens_Feel]

Toaru god tiers are too strong for god tier ttgl. Almighty stomp for chimera.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Toaru god tiers are too strong for god tier ttgl. Almighty stomp for chimera.

I know they are. I'm just trying to get some downplay out of the way

 

[Orioreeem]

Significantly affecting an infinite universe 11d is not gonna be infinitely above baseline high 1-C without context. magic gods are Infinitely above because even when restricted to 1/∞ of their power they are still stated to be pretty much the same(well not really but I don't wanna even try to explain this part so here's the qoute from novel itself)

But, High Priest," cut in a girl's voice that sounded even younger and also childish. "Miss Zombie's theory is essentially the same as holding up opposing mirrors, right? By splitting up our power infinitely, we can intentionally weaken ourselves and avoid destroying the world whenever we move an arm or leg."

"What about it, Niang-Niang?"

"I'm just wondering if the symbol ∞ will really grow weaker when you split it up. I don't want to smash the world up like stained glass the first step I take. We're not like Othinus."

"It doesn't matter if it's a mere deception as long as it works. Just like a Moebius strip or a Klein bottle, some concepts are allowed to exist even if they can't be properly defined, Niang-Niang."

Can you please explain dimensions in To Aru? It seems to me like higher dimensional being can exist in 3 dimensional world if they just suppress their power by infinity?

 

[Rez]

Can you please explain dimensions in To Aru? It seems to me like higher dimensional being can exist in 3 dimensional world if they just suppress their power by infinity?

They are not accepted to be higher dimensional only their powers are and toaru World it self is 11d

 

[Zensum]

Yes it is. He scales far above Kittan who could destroy the Death Spiral Machine, which had an absolute 0% chance in succeeding, and the Ashtanga, who can negate any chance of the opponent blocking. Simon was also shown to be able to fight one on one with the Anti-Spiral, who explicitly stated in the beginning of the fight, that the chances of Team Dai-Gurren winning in his universe are absolutely 0. This isn't hyperbole, considering that Granzeboma was completely undamaged by a barrage of lasers, and Yoko's bullets. Simon would need Probability Alteration active at all times to damage Anti-Spiral, as Anti-Spiral is the universe itself, according to Final Drill

I'm only concerned with the actual probability manipulation and not the superior AP scaling. The Death Spiral Machine wasn't manipulating probability, getting sucked into a "black hole" and Spiral conversion field and Kittan collapsing the field by exploiting a weakness was essentially just a risky endeavor? They just had a low chance of success because it's made to absorb Spiral energy. Nothing about it had to do with it manipulating probability. And while the Ashtanga do manipulate probability, the crew had to actively fight to raise their chances to success. "Team Dai-Gurren winning in his universe are absolutely 0... Simon would need Probability Alteration active at all times to damage Anti-Spiral" Sure, but this doesn't answer what I said previously. Always active Probability Alteration =/= Probability Manipulation is at 100% success passively. Simon is just increasingly manipulating the logical probability of his own success and thus lowering Anti-Spiral's probability potency via Spiral Power and fighting spirit.

Yeah, no. As I've already said, the Ashtanga can completely negate any possibility of the opponent dodging, and isn't implied to run on Spiral Power or anything similar. Simon (Post-Multiverse Labyrinth) is FAR superior to the Ashtanga, and Simon (Post-Apotheosis) is FAR superior to his PML self, via a scaling chain

Everything about Post-Apo is about Spiral Power. I didn't mention Ashtanga's manipulation. This scaling doesn't mean anything in regards to my point about probability manip potency.

Again, he did say that the chances of Team Dai-Gurren winning are absolutely 0. This also isn't him being superior in physical strength, as Anti-Spiral stated that he'd fight them on an equal playing field, which is corroborated by a tactic he uses called absolute despair, in which he proceeds to make his opponents feel horrible, by playing equal with them, and making them realize that winning is actually far beyond their reach

Yes, he was toying with them and that gave them the time and spirit to become more powerful, but how does this relate to what I said? My previous post meant when Simon ups his chances from 0%/Anti-Spirals chances are lowered. This isn't Simon immediately using passive 100% chance.

But yea looks like thread purpose has concluded anyways so no point in me continuing here.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

They just had a low chance of success because it's made to absorb Spiral energy. Nothing about it had to do with it manipulating probability. And while the Ashtanga do manipulate probability, the crew had to actively fight to raise their chances to success

They did not just “have a low chance”, Lordgenome, who has been in battle with the Anti-Spiral before, and has shown to have knowledge about this machine, said that destroying it had a 0% percent chance of succeeding. And Simon never needed probability manipulation to defeat the Ashtanga, because the Ashtanga are so weak in comparison, that it gets one shot by any attack Simon in SGGL throws at them.

Simon is just increasingly manipulating the logical probability of his own success and thus lowering Anti-Spiral's probability potency via Spiral Power and fighting spirit

When has it ever been stated that Spiral Power increases probability? Ashtanga don’t even use any whatsoever Spiral Power, and it can still manipulate probability, so it would be logical to assume that Spiral Power was never the factor in probability fluctuations

Everything about Post-Apo is about Spiral Power. I didn't mention Ashtanga's manipulation. This scaling doesn't mean anything in regards to my point about probability manip potency.

Ashtanga doesn’t use any Spiral Power, nor are they ever stated to use whatever energy Anti-Spiral uses, so it’s completely contradictory to say probability alteration is because of Spiral Power, on top of having nothing that says it’s highly likely that Spiral Power helps Probability Alteration

My previous post meant when Simon ups his chances from 0%/Anti-Spirals chances are lowered. This isn't Simon immediately using passive 100% chance.

Debunked already, as per reasoning above

But yea looks like thread purpose has concluded anyways so no point in me continuing here

Already concluded long ago, if you knew that maybe you shouldn’t have replied anyways, and just talked about this else where, ya know?