Rematch Shia Haulia vs Fiamma of the Right (6-9-0)

[Expectro2000xxx]

Listen. Just because it essentially teleports doesn't mean we shud give them infinite speed. Its like saying we shud have all teleporters listed as infinite in speed. Its redundant, unnecessary and confusing.

If essentially is a teleport I don't see why should be trated any different from other teleports, and if it really different than teleport then give him infinite speed would affect other teleportation users. But anyways.

 

[Heavens_Feel]

@Heavens_Feel All Hajime's harem have a smartphone which is normally in a pocket dimension, it monitors their vitals, if those vitals ever go bad, it automatically opens a portal next to them, firing the laser of Hajime's space satellite.

The laser uses soul magic to resurrect its target. Hajime's laser can only resurrect ppl who haven't been dead for too long, Kaori doesn't really have that restriction as she specializes in it.

But yea basically a person can be revived so long as there soul is still there.

Okay now this is very important. Have they ever actually been revived from nothing. Using soul magic doesn't mean it revives using the soul. It likely still requires a body, or some part of it atleast.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

I'm just asking that you please use the things in the profile and try to understand that he isn't invincible.

Why even have a discussion if u are basically telling us "You're wrong, I'm right"? The reason it's a debate is cause it's supposed to be a back and forth mate. Stop acting like it's baffling how we aren't agreeing with you. Quit being condescending.

Since when did we claim he was invincible? Stop putting words in our mouths. it's not our fault the forum can't make a decent match with fiamma....

Also, I'd appreciate it if you, The OP, updated the vote tally and actually be more transparent about it by including the names of those who voted in parentheses. least you could do.

Do we have a rule for threads where the OP is arguing hmm?

But enough derailment. We're in the lead and Grace is still (?) ongoing.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I remember Kaori in the afterstories being able to bypass those conditions of needing a body that isn't completely destroyed.

In terms of Hajime, idk exactly how potent it is, it's time reversal but idk if it would still apply if nothing was left.

Yeah, Kaori in wars showed it was able to revive even if there is no body with time manipulation, she only need to use it before five minutes have passed because then the cost of magic power and the difficult of it would increase exponentially, and the potent artifacts of Hajime are made with the colaboration of the girls, so consider that have the same potency as the one of Kaori is fine, could even be more potent if we consider that is a artifact to revive the girls so they put more effort in it. Like how the artifact to train Myuu in a game world was made with a restriction so potent that after be under it even Yue couldn't escape.

 

[Accelerate420]

The you are admitting that she have win con here? Because if that's the case at least it's a progress.

She does, but the problem is she has more loss probability than win.

@Heavens_Feel All Hajime's harem have a smartphone which is normally in a pocket dimension, it monitors their vitals, if those vitals ever go bad, it automatically opens a portal next to them, firing the laser of Hajime's space satellite.

The laser uses soul magic to resurrect its target. Hajime's laser can only resurrect ppl who haven't been dead for too long, Kaori doesn't really have that restriction as she specializes in it.

But yea basically a person can be revived so long as there soul is still there.

This pretty much guarantee's she's lost as soon as she's BFR'd and sealed then.

I'll just make one last comment on things using proof from both sides.

Here's how the fight will go ;

Future sight will activate first and she'll see Fiamma go for the swing.

She'll erase HR with either Time Manipulation or Info Manip considering that's the leading argument. If she tries to do it to fiamma, HR will tank the hit anyways, but he still has the 100k grimoires.

His immediately action is to use this , a grimoire that isn't on the profile but still exists in the library ;

Time related to Life and Death: With 'counter-attack against weapon wielders' inscribed on it, the grimoire has a defensive function which forces enemies to kill themselves with their own weapons.

So whatever weapon she has available on her, she'll pretty much turn it on herself. Grimoires affect both the mind and soul and taints them, so if she can't resist both then she's susceptible.

Once she's dead, Fiamma can continue to use Michael's Right hand Blessings to BFR and Seal her. And the match is over.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

With accel's recent comment, I hope the flame dies down and a consensus is reached.

It's not our fault he's written like that

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

She does, but the problem is she has more loss probability than win.

See, if you have say this from much before this could have be more smooth instead of say that anything she do don't matter.

This pretty much guarantee's she's lost as soon as she's BFR'd and sealed then.

Yes, the point against it is that seems like it isn't much in character to use it, so if he take to much in do it she could already develop a counter to the hand and defeat him before he can use it, with either info, time or even spatial manipulation because the profile say he don't resist any of them. Also, she can turn intangibility and the profile of Fiamma don't mention non-physical interaction.

His immediately action is to use this , a grimoire that isn't on the profile but still exists in the library ;

I said that I would prefer not use things in the profile, but because this comment make much more senses that the others until now I'm gonna count it.

So whatever weapon she has available on her, she'll pretty much turn it on herself. Grimoires affect both the mind and soul and taints them, so if she can't resist both then she's susceptible.

She resist both, and potent versions of both, so she isn't susceptible.

This comment I think is reasonable, good one.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

With accel's recent comment, I hope the flame dies down and a consensus is reached.

It's not our fault he's written like that

I also hope the flames calm down.

And please don't make comments like the second line, because if you go with that is like you provoke others and incite responses that only gonna agitate more the things instead of calm them.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

And please don't make comments like the second line, because if you go with that is like you provoke others and incite responses that only gonna agitate more the things instead of calm them.

Did it as a little tongue and cheek, but aight.

 

[Schnee_One]

I quite frankly don’t give a shit about this match, but why the **** is the OP arguing entirely in favor of Shia and going so far as to say “Counter all points in Fiamma’s favor”?

I know Fiamma threads suck and for good reason, but that doesn’t help at all.

 

[Everything12]

Fiamma fra (and for my own knowledge of the series).

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I quite frankly don’t give a shit about this match, but why the **** is the OP arguing entirely in favor of Shia and going so far as to say “Counter all points in Fiamma’s favor”?

Because as I said before I'm the one that know the most about Arifureta here aside from Pegasus and he already said that he don't care about the match because don't matter what you say the other side just say Fiamma auto wins anyway. So I'm the only one that can bring the reasons of why Shia can win against Fiamma to make a fair match, I don't have a problem with someone voting Fiamma after a consideration that he have more probabilities of win, but I think is wrong if people say that the opponent can't do anything and even if she do is completely useless when the profile don't show that he have faced something like the haxs that are argumented in favor of Shia.

 

[Schnee_One]

So why on earth did you make the match and argue for it yourself? If you’re the sole supporter arguing, making matches for you specifically to argue is obnoxious. Get somebody else to make the match instead of arguing on your own thread

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

So why on earth did you make the match and argue for it yourself? If you’re the sole supporter arguing, making matches for you specifically to argue is obnoxious. Get somebody else to make the match instead of arguing on your own thread

I just made a rematch and didn't expected that it would be so painful, in my case is even more painful aside from the debate itself because I'm sick currently.

 

[Schnee_One]

Last thing you should do is be on a site that can cause immense frustration while sick. Get yourself some rest and try to take care of yourself in the meantime

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Last thing you should do is be on a site that can cause immense frustration while sick. Get yourself some rest and try to take care of yourself in the meantime

Yeah, it wasn't the best idea argue here when sick, though it was in part to pass boredom while resting. I only realised that it was really a bad idea late.

 

[Accelerate420]

I've made that mistake myself and it only does more harm than good. But yeah I think this can pretty much be concluded at this rate. I don't believe the removal will happen with the consensus reached.

Also 6 - 9 , nice . . .

 

[Tyranno223]

I feel like a content revision should be made to note Fiamma's "insta win" stuff. Sure it's on the profile, but it's not noted in the speed or ap section.

 

[Accelerate420]

I feel like a content revision should be made to note Fiamma's "insta win" stuff. Sure it's on the profile, but it's not noted in the speed or ap section.

I can make a CRT for that in a few weeks. I'm not sure why people were ever treating it as teleportation when the novel never used it as such. The problem with APing it is that it specifically scales just above enough to destroy the opponent so it's a scaling hax almost akin to reactive power level but I'm not sure how well that'll go over with the specific supporters of the verse.

 

[Rez]

I can make a CRT for that in a few weeks. I'm not sure why people were ever treating it as teleportation when the novel never used it as such. The problem with APing it is that it specifically scales just above enough to destroy the opponent so it's a scaling hax almost akin to reactive power level but I'm not sure how well that'll go over with the specific supporters of the verse.

About the ap stuff treating it like sukuna's cleave would be a pretty good idea so simply putting an additional unknown ap on Fiamma's profile with an simple explanation should do the job

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

The thing about the speed is absolutely needed because without it then is only a normal teleport, the ap I don't think is needed to touch because the description of the hand make it clear that just use the exact amount needed against the opponent, but a Varies with the hand should be fine, at least I think it fits more than a unknown. And aside from the hand I think it's also good to add the potency of his sould and mind resistance, after searching for it the only thing I finded it was that it's equal to the amount of grimmores he have, not sure, the reason I say this is because it can help when the opponent have soul/mind manipulation.

 

[Accelerate420]

These are good additions and advice, I don't think it needs to be put to Unknown as we can scale it to the highest tiers he's faced and HR does have clear output statements too like turning planets to dust, but we could treat it similar to Accelerator's vector control with a Varies statement as well. HR can be weak enough to just push normal humans away or strong enough to wipe out Saints with one swing, so putting 'Varies' is good.

 

[Malox1696]

mhh read the arguments and really ?

resurrection ? yes Bel Agarta works to resurrect people but she needs to deploy it (which she has never done), power it with magic , and not getting it destroyed (which she really can't), shia herself can use almost (magic that affect only herself like space shift) no magics outside strengthening and magic weapons(plus the elemental spirit/god inside them) so using evolution magic to affect fiamma is out

about negation and teleportation of the strike

fiamma HR does not works by speed or strenght unless he himself is in a state of mind bad enough to want it too or cause HR itself deems the opponent too weak and fiamma still wants more for some reason (like his fight with touma as HR is incapable of counting touma IB when choosing the right amount of power)
it's not really teleportation really the attack just happens in the most optimal place with the most optimal strength to beat the opponent

the negation part what is it about ? cause it's not on the profile and i have never seen it really in the novel

fiamma swings once the hammer is destroyed, whatever she brings out of the ring is destroyed (that means resurrection satellite which she would need to power up first too) and the fight is over by knock out not even death, as the strike will immediately be delivered with enough power to just knock her out and ignoring speed direction or distance
it's a stomp

honestly OP why are you arguing for win condtion as OP ? and some of your argument don't really make sense

First of all, Shia already have surpassed enemies who teleport, various actually and a lot of times, and it wasn't by strategy but pure battle sense because she is mostly a muscle head.

false equivalence, fiamma already fought opponent with a lot of physical strength does it means he automatically beats her ?

Second, the hammer have a anti-magic property that was enough to fight the desintegration of various of the most powerful apostles, so that should weaken the hand.

hammer 1 is not negating : the surface of Drucken is covered with sealing stones, which is material in which mana is hard to circulate in, Drucken has countless sharp edges which pulverizes anyone touched by it, ignoring her targets durability
nothing to do in this case cause 1 while in index you use mana to cast spells but not all spells are not made of mana like in arifureta and are more similar to conceptual magic and 2 the hammer would need to touch the hand in the first place

Third, Shia can automatically see the future when in danger and can see 2 second in the future with little magic power, with more magic power she can see the future futher than that.

seeing the future changes nothing cause you can't dodge it as there is neither travel time or space the strike just happens

Fifth, in first place seems like in this key Fiamma have a limit of use of the hand, I think that even if that wasn't the case she still have more possibilities of winning but if that's the case then the probabilities are even more in her favor.

he has index controller that weakness is no more , it's stated in the profile , not that it would change much since the opponent is 1

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

mhh read the arguments and really ?

resurrection ? yes Bel Agarta works to resurrect people but she needs to deploy it (which she has never done), power it with magic , and not getting it destroyed (which she really can't), shia herself can use almost (magic that affect only herself like space shift) no magics outside strengthening and magic weapons(plus the elemental spirit/god inside them) so using evolution magic to affect fiamma is out

about negation and teleportation of the strike

fiamma HR does not works by speed or strenght unless he himself is in a state of mind bad enough to want it too or cause HR itself deems the opponent too weak and fiamma still wants more for some reason (like his fight with touma as HR is incapable of counting touma IB when choosing the right amount of power)
it's not really teleportation really the attack just happens in the most optimal place with the most optimal strength to beat the opponent

the negation part what is it about ? cause it's not on the profile and i have never seen it really in the novel

fiamma swings once the hammer is destroyed, whatever she brings out of the ring is destroyed (that means resurrection satellite which she would need to power up first too) and the fight is over by knock out not even death, as the strike will immediately be delivered with enough power to just knock her out and ignoring speed direction or distance
it's a stomp

honestly OP why are you arguing for win condtion as OP ? and some of your argument don't really make sense

First of all, Shia already have surpassed enemies who teleport, various actually and a lot of times, and it wasn't by strategy but pure battle sense because she is mostly a muscle head.

false equivalence, fiamma already fought opponent with a lot of physical strength does it means he automatically beats her ?

Second, the hammer have a anti-magic property that was enough to fight the desintegration of various of the most powerful apostles, so that should weaken the hand.

hammer 1 is not negating : the surface of Drucken is covered with sealing stones, which is material in which mana is hard to circulate in, Drucken has countless sharp edges which pulverizes anyone touched by it, ignoring her targets durability
nothing to do in this case cause 1 while in index you use mana to cast spells but not all spells are not made of mana like in arifureta and are more similar to conceptual magic and 2 the hammer would need to touch the hand in the first place

Third, Shia can automatically see the future when in danger and can see 2 second in the future with little magic power, with more magic power she can see the future futher than that.

seeing the future changes nothing cause you can't dodge it as there is neither travel time or space the strike just happens

Fifth, in first place seems like in this key Fiamma have a limit of use of the hand, I think that even if that wasn't the case she still have more possibilities of winning but if that's the case then the probabilities are even more in her favor.

he has index controller that weakness is no more , it's stated in the profile , not that it would change much since the opponent is 1

Why you comment when this is already settled, but anyways.

She don't need to summon Bel Agarta, it's already said that in the moment their signals got wrong a laser from Berl Agarta would come from a portal in space, and it's time manipulation, don't matter if there is nothing left after the destruction, Kaori herself can resurrect when nothing more is left. And the point of the hax magic is that yes, she use them as physical methods, but with RE she can develop more dangerous ways to use them, as was showed when she with RE developed the vibration manipulation of Hajime and created a aoe that destroyed space itself, develop a way to use info manipulation to negate the damage to herself is something possible, heck, Kaori already can do that with time manipulation, Shia can develop either of them, that's the joke with her, that she develop absurd abilities out of nowhere.

The profile call it a teleport, so it's a teleport until the CRT that give it infinite speed, it was already said that that CRT would be in a near future. Also, now that you say so, if the hand aside from come to the side of the objetive also attack in the most optimal way (not the same that the optimal strength) then that's other thing to add to his profile

If you say that the hammer can't negate magics from Index because they lack mana then ok.

If he don't have weakness then just eliminate the weakness in the profile, as easy as that.

 

[Malox1696]

i mean the satellite is destroyed not her (the satellite can't regen itself as it needs to be working to cast the magic)

info man to negate the damage itself is not possible even for better evolution magic user so 1 she needs to show it 2 it's most likely not possible

while yes, she is becoming a JK character in the after stories she needs feats nonetheless (or fiamma is tier 0 by that logic)

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

i mean the satellite is destroyed not her (the satellite can't regen itself as it needs to be working to cast the magic)

info man to negate the damage itself is not possible even for better evolution magic user so 1 she needs to show it 2 it's most likely not possible

while yes, she is becoming a JK character in the after stories she needs feats nonetheless (or fiamma is tier 0 by that logic)

Why the satellite would be destroyed? Bel Agarta isn't even in the ring, though is also completely possible that there is other Bel Agarta in each ring.

Info manip can negate the existance of things, so something like negate damage is possible, it can even negate things that someone have from the very moment they begin to exist.

She have feats of RE, have feats of develop abilities from others, have feats of develop new ways to use her hax out of nowhere.

 

[Malox1696]

Why the satellite would be destroyed? Bel Agarta isn't even in the ring, though is also completely possible that there is other Bel Agarta in each ring.

Info manip can negate the existance of things, so something like negate damage is possible, it can even negate things that someone have from the very moment they begin to exist.

She have feats of RE, have feats of develop abilities from others, have feats of develop new ways to use her hax out of nowhere.

bel aragta is in space i know but fiamma can already destroy satellites

again feats nobody has shown what you said in the series, nor it was ever stated, your argument literally is " she makes up a new ability out of nowhere"

ok so she has every ability in existence since , have feats of develop new ways to use her hax out of nowhere. ?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

bel aragta is in space i know but fiamma can already destroy satellites

As far the profile make it clear that was because the hand protected Fiamma and Fiamma couldn't even know the existance of the satellite, the satellite wouldn't make any damage to him so the hand wouldn't react. If he can destroy it without know where is then fine.

again feats nobody has shown what you said in the series, nor it was ever stated, your argument literally is " she makes up a new ability out of nowhere"

ok so she has every ability in existence since , have feats of develop new ways to use her hax out of nowhere. ?

I say that she develop new abilities, and have show to develop abilities from others, I'm not saying she has every ability in existence.

 

[Malox1696]

the moment it activates it is hostile, i mean it's healing the enemy

so she just develops new ability which was never stated to exist just to fit your argument ?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

the moment it activates it is hostile, i mean it's healing the enemy

so she just develops new ability which was never stated to exist just to fit your argument ?

Yes, whatever you say oh great lord.

 

[Malox1696]

lol dude this is pathetic you literally said

develop a way to use info manipulation to negate the damage to herself is something possible, heck, Kaori already can do that with time manipulation, Shia can develop either of them, that's the joke with her, that she develop absurd abilities out of nowhere.


you are literally saying she develops the ability to fit your argument with nothing to back it up other than " she created some new ability derivative of her magic"

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

This match has been nothing but heated.

Fiamma abilities are going to be clarified in a CRT apparently, so don't think this match is even worth been continued, especially due to how many tempers are being flared here.

 

[Schnee_One]

Please delete this mess Celestial