Shinza Banshou 1-A discussion

[ZERO7772]

Just one thing

Wasn't their taikyoku off and they suppressed their AP for not accidentally destroying remnants of marie world. Like their AP was mountain level but durability still 1-A. Unless you are saying eastern expedition had 1-A durabiliy in base and without taikyoku?

That not how scaling work in like, any verse on this site.
Getting stomped is NOT a feat. There is countless examples of much weaker characters getting hell stomped and surviving the onslaught of the stronger one, yet they doesn't scale. You have to remember that almost no author writes their story with such system and believe in mind, and we have to make sense of what we get.

The problem has always been the claim that Taiji gives you literally infinite power difference
Yet the Taiji users doesn't seems to erase the EE from existence with a touch.

 

[Kaizuka_Satomi]

Huh, am I ******* dreaming? Both Akuro and Morei were already stomping the EE prior to activating their Taikyoku.



It describes here from Akuro's viewpoint that just like a painting that cannot harm reality itself, reality itself can easily destroy the [painting] as will.
Next part line the narration describes how carrying an attack from a higher dimensional to a lower dimensional attack is easier than "twisting a newborn infant's arm".

"Injured" lmao, that's a funny way to describe how the entire EE were ******* massacred like child's play.


Oh and I am not fond of you strawmanning me. I clearly indicated or at least hinted here that I haven't finished any of it yet. And I have clearly said that I was neutral on the Shinza Bansho CRT until I complete the Shinza Bansho verse.

Do you even playing K3, at all or just reading and taking things out of context? After using Taiyoku and unleash Kamunagara did Morei and Akuro cut off Shiori's arms, poisoning Soujirou, killed off Habaki, Keishirou gradually losing Yugami, and Yakou losing his eyes.

Well, guess my advice did not get you, so I'll say it again. Think at the speed of light.

Edit: Or, you, like, didn't even watch the video. What is this CG then?

Edit 2: Just realized that you further proved my point without me taking screenshot of my game or searching on the shitty YT. Thanks for cut me some slack, but well, everything... is within my calculations.

 

[Chasekilleen]

Do you even playing K3, at all or just reading and taking things out of context? After using Taiyoku and unleash Kamunagara did Morei and Akuro cut off Shiori's arms, poisoning Soujirou, killed off Habaki, Keishirou gradually losing Yugami, and Yakou losing his eyes.

Why you so toxic mate? I made a reasonable request asking you to send clips or screenshots over to confirm things, you keep strawmanning me and saying that I have read Shinza stuff when I never did mention that and keep talking down to me whilst insulting my intelligence, the stuff I sent is in context of what I am originally arguing for, Yatsukahagi's kicking EE's ass without using Taikyoku and they are seemingly on a higher plane of existence of EE prior to activating their Taikyoku.
I am aware that they were killed after Morei and Akuro activated their Taikyoku, but that's not my argument, my argument is that they still were hilariously above EE without Taikyoku.

 

[ZERO7772]

Can we stop with the mockery and toxicity? The reason many people dislike to talk to this verse "elites" is because some them are pretty rude and disrespectful toward people, if someone is making a mistake just correct them and provide better context and we are done.

This is a discussion about 10 years old chunni game. Lets chill everyone.

 

[Kaizuka_Satomi]

Why you so toxic mate? I made a reasonable request asking you to send clips or screenshots over to confirm things, you keep strawmanning me and saying that I have read Shinza stuff when I never did mention that and keep talking down to me whilst insulting my intelligence, the stuff I sent is in context of what I am originally arguing for, Yatsukahagi's kicking EE's ass without using Taikyoku and they are seemingly on a higher plane of existence of EE prior to activating their Taikyoku.
I am aware that they were killed after Morei and Akuro activated their Taikyoku, but that's not my argument, my argument is that they still were hilariously above EE without Taikyoku.

Congratulation! You have missed the entire point of this thread: To discuss about whether Taiyoku difference is infinity or not. Yatsukahagi still stomp Eastern Expeditors without going Taiyoku? Nothing to do with this thread. You are off-topic.
And yeah, strawman or not, I don't care. If you cannot prove I'm wrong by attacking the core of my statements, I'll skip.
Yeah, thinking at the speed of light is the thing you, objectively, need the most to not going off-topic here, mate. Nothing toxic here, just an earnest advice to a random stranger. Good luck, everything... is within my calculations.

 

[AKM sama]

This is a discussion about 10 years old chunni game. Lets chill everyone.

This. Let's all relax and discuss it without mockery and aggression. Those who can't be chill will ultimately be restricted from commenting in the thread.

 

[Infera28]

Yakou aware of the general rule of Taiji battle and he intended to overpower, and devour Ootake, thus there are implications that Yakou's value is higher. Plus, due to having the same color, the act also overload the Tenma's world, cracking his armor as that world's boundary, being overflown with death, is breaking apart.

Isn't that a feat for Ootake's EE then? Erasing characters far stronger than himself and he consistently done that too.

Machina without his taiji could erase Hadou God Ren and Ren countered his EE through making his own time 0 not resisting it. It also could erase Methuselah who was 1.5 step beyond briah degree and Machina's EE was coming from his briah. It could erase Reinhard, Mercurius and Marie who are far stronger than Machina. Not to mention countless statements about Machina erasing stories and story was referred to Mercurius's world.

It was human Machina without taiji. Now imagine Machina with taiji value 50. Machina's EE always was threatened as an all-ending attack.

FYI, Gare translated "eternal moment" as "ephemeral moment." I'm too lazy to point out all the falsely translated part, but you should aware that what the man has done to Dies Irae is not translating, but rather fanfic-ing the game. That's it, so I will consider all English scan of Dies Irae wrong. Feel free to find someone who can read Japanese and debunk my statement. Try and fail miserably, burden of proof is not something worth concerning to me.

Having some mistakes = / = whole translation is wrong. Masadaverse threads always were fact checked by members who could read japanese such as Trexalfa29, EvilMegaCookie, TISSG7Redgrave, Qliphoth Bacikal, Alrf and some more

So your point really is wrong. Translation has some mistakes but it isn't fully flawed.

Taken out of context, nothing more, nothing less. Yato merely bluffing, and the "level" does not always meant to be Taiyoku.

Mind proving he was bluffing because it looks like you are taking many shit out of context. Especially seeing we haven't anyone else who read KKK in thread for fact checking your context and claims. Yato also was cleary talking about taiji:

"Even if heaven and earth are turned over, it is impossible without the qualifications.
Did you say .... Taiji?
I don't know the details, but at this point nothing should work unless you reach the same level."

Lying about my scan displays your dishonesty.

Wrong, they already intended to kill the whole Expedition squad if Ryumei did not show up. And still using the "holding back" argument despite what I've said, do you hold back when you trample on an ant?

So recently getting stomped hard by someone and only surviving due to Ryumei's appearance is a feat?! Plot is a thing. Writer can't just one shot and murder every main character for our power scaling.

And why not? because they weren't trying to accidentally destroying remnants of marie world. So they suppressed their powers. You can still kill an ant in suppressed state, can't you? according to Masada himself, Yato suppressed his power and only used swords. So why his gang couldn't do same thing?

And we don't need to thinking at speed of light for properly knowing and arguing a japanese verse that we never read in our lives. But keep continue your toxicty i guess.

 

[PsychoWarper]

This gang the Tenmas have literal full control over there offensive output being able to lower themselves even down to Mountain level so they could very easily limit themselves and still be strong enough to beat the EE.

Also while this is understandably a flaw in the writing since they are using so many high tier characters Masada isnt just going to have everyone one shot everyone cause theres still plot that needs to happen, K3 isnt just a battle Novel with power as its only focus (Dispite how it seems at times) but it does in character have plot meaning Masada wont just have characters insta gibbing their opponents even if they should.

 

[ZERO7772]

K3 isnt just a battle Novel with power as its only focus (Dispite how it seems at times)

Funny that you brought this up, I used to think that Hajun is just insane buffoon, but it seems there is some depth to his character.
I very much doubt he hold a candle to top tier villains like Rein and Merc tho

 

[Mugen_no_Setsuna]

If the gap between characters are infinite, then why the fight is prolong like some DBZ episodes? Saying "because of the plot" is not even right, it's just bad writting. Moreover, no scan from the game directly said that the gap is infinite either, it's all just assumption.

 

[Kaizuka_Satomi]

Isn't that a feat for Ootake's EE then? Erasing characters far stronger than himself and he consistently done that too.

Machina without his taiji could erase Hadou God Ren and Ren countered his EE through making his own time 0 not resisting it. It also could erase Methuselah who was 1.5 step beyond briah degree and Machina's EE was coming from his briah. It could erase Reinhard, Mercurius and Marie who are far stronger than Machina. Not to mention countless statements about Machina erasing stories and story was referred to Mercurius's world.

It was human Machina without taiji. Now imagine Machina with taiji value 50. Machina's EE always was threatened as an all-ending attack.

This is taking my word out of context. I proved that there is Taiyoku difference between those two, something like cracking on Ootake's armor is the effect of having the same color.

Having some mistakes = / = whole translation is wrong. Masadaverse threads always were fact checked by members who could read japanese such as Trexalfa29, EvilMegaCookie, TISSG7Redgrave, Qliphoth Bacikal, Alrf and some more

So your point really is wrong. Translation has some mistakes but it isn't fully flawed.

あなたはそうして、彼と何処までも穴の底へ落ち続けるのか？それが望みと？
There, this is your endlessly falling down. Kichi has implied that he fought Shura several times though, so that "endlessly" could be fighting Kichi forever within the timeloop, who knows? Idk about Trexalfa29, EvilMegaCookie, TISSG7Redgrave, Qliphoth Bacikal, Alrf so I can't ensure anything about them though.

Mind proving he was bluffing because it looks like you are taking many shit out of context. Especially seeing we haven't anyone else who read KKK in thread for fact checking your context and claims. Yato also was cleary talking about taiji:

"Even if heaven and earth are turned over, it is impossible without the qualifications.
Did you say .... Taiji?
I don't know the details, but at this point nothing should work unless you reach the same level."

Lying about my scan displays your dishonesty.

Just saying, conveniently missing something listed right below is, weird.

Ootake vs Yakou, Rindou breaking Tenma's barrier with Tenma Fukumetsu (which protected by Yato's Law) despite the former nowhere to match the latter's Taiyoku value, Ryumei and Teirei using Shurado to defeat other Tenmas despite having zero Taiyoku value, throughout the game there is already more than enough circumstances to go against Zaranibba's word. Oh, forget to mention Reizen, 0 Taiyoku despite being described as surpassing Tenma.

...You seems to complain that there's no one fact check my word, but previously you did just listed a few? I would love to have someone to cut me more slack to determine whether I or you, who take things out of context.

So recently getting stomped hard by someone and only surviving due to Ryumei's appearance is a feat?! Plot is a thing. Writer can't just one shot and murder every main character for our power scaling.

And why not? because they weren't trying to accidentally destroying remnants of marie world. So they suppressed their powers. You can still kill an ant in suppressed state, can't you? according to Masada himself, Yato suppressed his power and only used swords. So why his gang couldn't do same thing?

And we don't need to thinking at speed of light for knowing a japanese verse that we never read in our lives. But keep continue your toxicty i guess.

Wrong, the Ryumei part because you said something about they hold back so I provide you the actual context of why did the Expeditors survived. Using Kamunagara is holding back, perharps. In the first place, Tenma holding back on anyone trepass onto the domain of Twilight? Well, if you want to blame on plot device then, I won't stop you

 

[ZERO7772]

His tone aside, I still think Kaizuka_Satomi the most sense here.

Does anyone have a directed translated scans proving the difference is infinite tho? Posting a scan saying
"you can't do anything unless you are on the same level"

Doesn't help much and it doesn't remotely suggest the claims that re being tossed here
Cases like Ren surviving a direct hit from Hajun and halting his law doesn't help either, sure you can talk all day about how easily Hajun did it but it still goes against what is being suggested here.

Sure, you can blame some plot points on the "writing" but the problem is that I am yet to see this "writing" suggesting what is being claimed here in the first place

 

[Kaizuka_Satomi]

Despite the game is set, there is still arguments to solve...

sign I'll add more point. Have to dig into the game around those part to check for any lines implying the Tenma reserves strength or holding back. Result: None.

Your details are made out of thin-air, I'm ready for fact check by you lot. Elsewise, nothing to deny the fact that the Tenma did tried to kill off the Expeditors, thus the "hold back" notion, moot.

And since no hold back, the nortion that "the difference between Taiyoku is infintite" also, moot, none of them instantly break anyone within EE into oblivion by mere touch.

Edit: and since everything left here is debating about little details, whereas everyone pretty much agreed that there is no infinity shennanigans within Shinza, I suggest closing the thread. I'll go back to reading Demonbane, have a Nya to crush

 

[PsychoWarper]

What exactly does the Tenma’s trying to kill the EE prove? That alone doesnt prove they turned on their Taiji and if their Taiji isnt on then in no way does that disprove anything.

 

[Antvasima]

This. Let's all relax and discuss it without mockery and aggression. Those who can't be chill will ultimately be restricted from commenting in the thread.

Agreed.

 

[Infera28]

This is taking my word out of context. I proved that there is Taiyoku difference between those two, something like cracking on Ootake's armor is the effect of having the same color.

Machina always was capable of erasing people stronger than himself. Your point? mountain level Machina could erase Reinhard, Mercurius, Methuselah (beyond briah degree), Gudou God Marie, Hadou God Ren and it stated his briah always interferes with Mercurius's story. If anything erasing Yakou is a feat for Ootake rather than some debunk for taiji difference.

There, this is your endlessly falling down. Kichi has implied that he fought Shura several times though, so that "endlessly" could be fighting Kichi forever within the timeloop, who knows? Idk about Trexalfa29, EvilMegaCookie, TISSG7Redgrave, Qliphoth Bacikal, Alrf so I can't ensure anything about them though.

Continue to endless downfall to bottom (throne is located in bottom and their point was drilling to throne), making another holes in singularity without end, defiling and recoloring singularity was cleary referred to same fight. Not endless fights in endless time loops. That's a big assumtion really.

Ootake vs Yakou, Rindou breaking Tenma's barrier with Tenma Fukumetsu (which protected by Yato's Law) despite the former nowhere to match the latter's Taiyoku value, Ryumei and Teirei using Shurado to defeat other Tenmas despite having zero Taiyoku value, throughout the game there is already more than enough circumstances to go against Zaranibba's word. Oh, forget to mention Reizen, 0 Taiyoku despite being described as surpassing Tenma.

Idk KKK enough for arguing them. I never argued against those points either. I wasn't saying difference between each taiji is infinite nor saying all your points are wrong. Only some of your points (not whole them) were bothering me, because they looked wrong so i refuted them.

but previously you did just listed a few?

I was talking about past. Those dudes are retired and they wouldn't fact check anymore. But frankly someone who read KKK should fact check your points. I can't trust you without any backup. That's like revising a verse without any fact checking and agreement from reliable members. Making sense isn't enough someone WHO READ KKK should fact check your points too. Especially your points are pretty controversial.

Wrong, the Ryumei part because you said something about they hold back so I provide you the actual context of why did the Expeditors survived. Using Kamunagara is holding back, perharps. In the first place, Tenma holding back on anyone trepass onto the domain of Twilight? Well, if you want to blame on plot device then, I won't stop you

If a universe buster will god stomp some planet level dude, our planet level dude is stomped to death but not killed and saved by someone else then we should downgrade universe buster to planet level too? we don't do such thing in this wiki, because that doesn't make any sense and plot is a thing. Writer can't just one shot and murder every main character. That takes fun and stress away from story.

 

[Kaizuka_Satomi]

If a universe buster will god stomp some planet level dude, our planet level dude is stomped to death but not killed and saved by someone else then we should downgrade universe buster to planet level too? we don't do such thing in this wiki, because that doesn't make any sense and plot is a thing. Writer can't just one shot and murder every main character. That takes fun and stress away from story.

Only Sukuna and Ootake capable of posing a thread to destroying Twilight's domain because of their craving. Morei and Akuro fought EE for a reason.

Quick reply, I'm still working on summoning Shining Trapezohedron so I will skip the rest of your argument, now then, excuse me.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

They don't have to turn on their taiji but Yato's time armor exists...

How is yato bluffing? That's a blatant lie cuz like why lie? He's in a disadvantage and he gains nothing for saying smth like that. He knows what he's into and all he can do is use the chips available. Hell masada said fighting Hajun directly is stupid so he needed Habaki.

Again why the **** are we assuming yato is like 65 or anywhere his peak if its breaks the taiji's way of fighting.

And why are you assuming time loops shit for Rein because it has nothing to do with his law...Like nothing implied merc was talking about rein specifically when he was there with ren. He stopped them from fighting a fruitless battle that falls endlessly.

Christ you assume all of DI english is wrong when there is consistency there like holy hell. Then prove its wrong.

あなたはそうして、彼と何処までも穴の底へ落ち続けるのか？それが望みと？

Btw this quote is saying: Is that what you want? To keep falling endlessly down the hole with him? Is that what you desire?

Which is consistent with the english you hate so much.

You didn't prove anything about Yakou vs ootake at all. All you said was Yakou was overpowering. Which is possible despite being at the same grade. Did we just forget ren was about to get overpowered in 3 colors?

Tenma fukutetsu is literally imposing the loser status on the tenmas and flattening their law by calling them with their true names.

夜都賀波岐たち、旧世界の存在をかつての名＝咒(神号・神咒)で呼ぶ力。夜都賀波岐たちは旧世界の英雄であり、第六天波旬との戦いに敗れたことで「敗者の型」に嵌められてしまった存在である。穢土の中では無間大紅蓮地獄の展開で神の如き力を発揮する無敵の存在でいられるが、「勝者の型」を持つ西の者からかつての名で呼ばれると再び「敗者」であることを強制されてしまい、時間停止の鎧は砕け、大幅に力を削がれて存在そのものが霧散しかけてしまう。

Mentions the tenmas are in the losers state and thus by calling their true names it flattens the time armor.

All the gods fights haven't proven their taijis are different at all. Stop using ootake vs yakou when it clearly shows the two were affecting the other to some capacity (if it was different yakou could incinerate Ootake with ootake unable to do anything back. The literal basis of a taiji battle).

We know how a taiji hadou can't reach the throne endlessly by falling because they are not strong enough. Merc's singularity already expanded and we know the one before any expansion was infinite anyway so it got "deeper" with the changing of heavens and those who fail will fall endlessly. Hajun is considered infinite in "depth" in comparison to his previous godheads.

I also don't get how machina's opponent being stronger would work with the taiji system. Hell that's when Ootake/Machina just said screw it and showed his face which wrecked Yakou until hajun ressurected him and made him finish the job.

There are far more consistencies with the explaination to certain things than just assuming its not infinite. I could literally add shiori's infinite mirage which stacks btw (would have done nothing if the taiji difference was even 1) or Merc has infinite souls under his belt iirc (considering hajun inherited the souls of marie's world who inherited from merc) so there is that...

Sukuna can only pose a threat to the same taiji as yato (which if anyone remembers sukuna is yato's apoptosis which makes their taiji the bloody same) so he can't null for the life of him or not it will turn on him if its bigger. Ootake who is also 50 has nothing to say he wasn't affecting yakou. He stopped using his fist and went to the face which as i mentioned took down Yakou (but the taiji didn't increase he just had his armor as a restrain to not kill with a glare).

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Btw this was used for Hajun's taikyoku: 無量大数

According to multiple sites its 10^68 (or 10^88) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

So we can count Hajun's taikyoku as 10^68 i guess

無量大数 in English - Japanese-English Dictionary | Glosbe

Check '無量大数' translations into English. Look through examples of 無量大数 translation in sentences, listen to pronunciation and learn grammar.

glosbe.com

This site also said it's immeasurable.

 

[SleepyTBubble]

the way it is written in the in-game profiles, it would be read as immeasurable

 

[PsychoWarper]

Ootake vs Yakou

Ill let Red deal with that.

Rindou breaking Tenma's barrier with Tenma Fukumetsu (which protected by Yato's Law) despite the former nowhere to match the latter's Taiyoku value

“Tenma Fukumetsu” is literally LLT, a weapon with feats of harming/battling against characters far higher than any of the Tenma’s. Now sure Rindou’s LLT isnt quite on par with Reinhards that doesnt mean its fallen to a level below the Tenma’s, so isnt that just more feats for LLT?

Even disregarding LLT is a God Slaying weapon she literally is calling out their “loser status”, as those who got murked by Hajun and forcibly reincarnated, by revealing their true names and debuffing them.

Ryumei and Teirei using Shurado to defeat other Tenmas despite having zero Taiyoku value, throughout the game there is already more than enough circumstances to go against Zaranibba's word.

By Shurado are you referring to Shura Mandala? Which iirc is referring to Rainhards Universe and directly related to the Gods, Ryumei is literally using the last remaining “divinity” of the Shurado. Also Teirei is literally a Kamunagara which is a physical manifestation of a Law

Oh, forget to mention Reizen, 0 Taiyoku despite being described as surpassing Tenma.

You mean when he used Solipsism Mandala which is a direct boost from Hajun himself? Hell part of it even mentions that “3 eyes of the Great Demon appear” aka Hajun. Isnt it explicitly stated to be one of the deepest connections to Hajun?

 

[Udlmaster]

90 degrees above baseline lmao

I think they're an Acute angle above Baseline, but I don't want to be Obtuse.

 

[BleedingPeach]

Couldn't the implications lead to a likely higher when we talk about their power levels? The same way I found the term "baseline" as something that always leads to a way of saying "they're not as powerful as you think they are", like that we can say "yeah, baseline but not so much". Gudou could have the "likely" alone while Hadou could have also an "at least" in their 1-A.

 

[PsychoWarper]

So like “1-A, likely Higher” for Gudou and “At least 1-A, likely Higher” for Hadou?

 

[Ovy7]

So 1A+ Gods?

 

[ZERO7772]

This is yet to proven lel.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Honestly I dont even know at this point.

If we go with Immeasurable then that counts as “Not Countable” and “Can’t be Counted” as Masada has shown to use those as interchangeable (And those kinda come from the definition), I dont know how we’ll treat it. Ive talked with Ultima some and he seems confused on why that kind of Immeasurable is seen as Finite so... eh.

Honestly I dont even care about 1-A+ rn (If we find full evidence later it can be applied later), if we just went back to how it was then it would be clear and wed know where they stood I guess.

 

[ZERO7772]

Does that matter that much? It's not like each profile list the "layers" of 1-A each character is each on.

Anyway gonna unwatch this for now.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I mean it would matter for Vs battles but eh.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

So 1A+ Gods?

As of yet? No.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

So like “1-A, likely Higher” for Gudou and “At least 1-A, likely Higher” for Hadou?

Tbh Idk. I feel the latter works for the gods but meh

 

[Infera28]

Maybe something like this is better.

"1-A, likely Higher” for Gudou and Hadou | 1-A, likely higher as Throne Master
or
"At least 1-A, likely Higher” for Gudou and Hadou | At least 1-A, likely higher as Throne Master

Don't forget throne masters are heavily amped by universes and souls. Whole creation is their territory.

So maybe we should add a saparate key for throne masters because it completely changes their powers.

Although idk if throne master or master of throne is best name? i took name from here.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I feel like Throne God sounds better personally.

 

[Infera28]

Throne God and Master of Throne sounds better than Throne Master i agree.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Haven't caught up with the thread, so I won't be surprised if I'm missing something, but likely higher would be 1A+, aka infinite levels above baseline 1A.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Technically it could just mean higher levels of 1-A than we currently rate them as so it doesn’t necessarily mean 1-A+.

 

[Zencha9]

Technically it could just mean higher levels of 1-A than we currently rate them as so it doesn’t necessarily mean 1-A+.

High 1-A lmfao

 

[Rikimarox2]

Technically it could just mean higher levels of 1-A than we currently rate them as so it doesn’t necessarily mean 1-A+.

Are there any profiles like that? I don't think there's a single profile that has Likely higher and not be 1A+

Though, my knowledge is limited here, so it could also just be above baseline and not 1A+. But I'd appreciate if you could link me a single profile that has a likely higher rating, and not be 1A+

 

[PsychoWarper]

I mean I dont know every 1-A profile, our standards for 1-A profiles are basically just “explain this well” afaik.

So I dont know if thats allowed or not.

Although for a higher tier we could say possibly higher since the evidence is concrete.

 

[Infera28]

Just make it normal 1-A without likely

I don't want another revision thread and headache over a mere "likely"

We only need to adding that throne key i guess