Shinza Banshou 1-A discussion

[Darksmash]

Since the downgrade thread has been concluded, this thread's aim would be to determine how high into 1-A the Shinza Gods exactly are(And to decide a better AP description I guess)

This post from the downgrade thread summarises the reasons that led to the downgrade.

Basically, the argument previously used to argue why depth differences between the singularities generated by the gods were transcendental has been deemed incorrect, since it's only "immeasurable and bottomless" when the challenger is directly facing the throne god's law. And the analogy of gods transcending singularity with a reality>painting difference was also wrong.

However, 1-A should still hold up as the multiverse and it's dimensions are still part of the drawing on the canvas. Now, the question is, how high into 1-A exactly?(Though I personally think such a thread is unnecessary as we don't list the amount of layers on the profiles but I guess there's a very small chance they end up at 1-A+ or smth)

Users that might be interested in this thread: @PsychoWarper, @TISSG7Redgrave, @Nepuko, @Tony_di_bugalu, @Infera28, @Kaizuka_Satomi

I suppose Taiji levels can still be transcendent given all the "not being able to reach the bottom" stuff, but the more important question is: does a God with Taiji 2 transcend a god with Taiji 1 just as much as the god with Taiji 1 transcends a normal human?
That's what we can determine here

 

[PsychoWarper]

Non-Mods cant tag people unfortunately, anyway I posted it on the Shinza Discord.

 

[CaptainHulk23]

this will be fun

 

[PsychoWarper]

Sure... fun, kinda wish this had waited to happen since everyone just got done constantly debating Shinza for the last few days.

But its up so... eh

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

I can sort of explain that smth like yakou who can change his existence on a fly just to interact with ppl can easily make himself an incomprehensible existence to anyone that is lower than him so that's a start for smth.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

90 degrees above baseline lmao

 

[Fixxed]

90x transcending baseline 1A

 

[Everything12]

Wasn't their a quote about how the invulnerability of Taiji comes from something like "A picture of a flame won't burn a real human no matter how realistic it is".

No clue about the context of where this comes from because, you know, I don't understand the source.

険えるなら 、 絵の中でどれだけ猛火を描写しよう と 、それが 現実 の人間を燃やせるわけがないのと同じ 。

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I personally dont think they reach 1-A+

 

[PsychoWarper]

For now im down for just going back to how they used to be treated which was “Taiji level of degrees above baseline” so for Rein hes 90 while Yato hes 100.

If we find legitimate stuff to upgrade it, it can be handled then once we gather the proper information and submit a CRT but atm we dont have that so just going back to what they where.

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

Although I do not know anything about shinza, it is argued that in some communities, the presence of lower Taiji was possible to hit the higher Taiji's presence, so they were not really a difference between painting and reality, but simply figuratively representing a large difference.

What does this wiki think of this?

 

[PsychoWarper]

Well I dont think someone getting hit is enough to disprove the difference. At least not with Shinza characters.

Looking at a fight between someone (I forgot their name) and a Tenma he was capable of hitting the Tenma but it did no damage, it did no damage not because a simple difference in power but a difference in plane of existence.

 

[Chasekilleen]

I disagree with 1 Taikyoku is automatically above Throne since the only lowest recorded Taikyoku were that of Gudou God's and Gudou God's can't take up the Throne due to their nature.
We know that to destroy the Throne itself it took deities their strongest power to completely destroy the Throne.
Another Ravenous misinterpretation.
The lowest Taiykoku known to take up the Throne is Nerose Satanuel's, (unless Avesta has released shit, I don't think Muzan's and Shinga's Taiyoku is known yet).
But I don't want to touch anything Shinza related after I read all Shinza stuff and also after all my native eroge games.

 

[Nepuko]

Wasn't their a quote about how the invulnerability of Taiji comes from something like "A picture of a flame won't burn a real human no matter how realistic it is".

No clue about the context of where this comes from because, you know, I don't understand the source.

Oh, nice. If the context behind this quote is about the Taiji values then yeah, I can see how each Taiji value will transcend the last one, and how each one is 1 layer in the hierarchy. If it's not though then I suppose we'll have to prove the difference stated in the OP.

Although I see some debates above about the "absoluteness" of Taiji values so I'm unsure. But I suppose this is what this thread is for.

But I'm alright if we return to before as Psychowarper said tbh.

 

[Antvasima]

@Tony_di_bugalu, @Infera28, @Kaizuka_Satomi

It seems like your input has been requested here.

 

[UlbertAlain]

It seems interesting, following

 

[QuasiYuri]

Oh, nice. If the context behind this quote is about the Taiji values then yeah, I can see how each Taiji value will transcend the last one, and how each one is 1 layer in the hierarchy. If it's not though then I suppose we'll have to prove the difference stated in the OP.

It's actually about why Mibu (a non-god at the time) couldn't hit Akuro.

He was able to do so after gaining higher dimensional slash and the likes tho.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Iirc he wasnt able to damage still after that but iirc during that Fight Akuro’s Taiji was inactive.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Iirc he wasnt able to damage still after that but iirc during that Fight Akuro’s Taiji was inactive.

They stay the same even without the use of their Taiji (which is why Tenmas have 1-A durability regardless).

And the higher dimensional slash affected him, it's even especially stated to be able to cut down the Tenmas.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Well I know that their durability doesnt change, I added it.

I forgot about him hurting the Tenma’s, ill definitely have to look into but yeah prior to getting a special slash he couldnt do anything to them but its not super relevant here.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I forgot about him hurting the Tenma’s, ill definitely have to look into but yeah prior to getting a special slash he couldnt do anything to them but its not super relevant here.

Iirc the scan was put in Soujirou's page too.

But yeah not relevant to this specific thread.

 

[Infera28]

I think difference between each taiji is infinite due to these statements:

Ren and Reinhard will continue endless downfall towards the bottom of the hole. They even can open new holes akin to the one they had made in multiverse. it mentioned "same type holes/akin to them" and those holes were pathways for drilling from multiverse to singularity, so making another holes in singularity is referred to drilling and transcending your way from singularity to throne. they also can open as much new holes as they want too, without any end and they still can't reach to throne. So even infinite drilling itsn't enough. It stated even if heaven and earth are turned over, nothing works against higher taikyoku and doing anything against it is impossible. Singularities generated by a God with “higher” quality would be immeasurably “deeper” than those of lower quality and singularity already is infinite in size so they are making a infinite construct even immeasurably bigger. It also stated higher taiji transcends weaker one and makes it void.

Its cleary size not some supernatural block. Because they can't "cross" it. It stated singularity is a "tunnel" and each singularity is deeper than last. Even if that isn't size but that still makes each taikyoku transcendental to last.

 

[Infera28]

I disagree with 1 Taikyoku is automatically above Throne since the only lowest recorded Taikyoku were that of Gudou God's and Gudou God's can't take up the Throne due to their nature.

That is due to throne's mechanices. They can't take over throne but they are beyond it and capable of destroying it.

Gudou God Marie was stronger than Hadou God Mercurius. Mercurius was throne master and destroyed throne. Soujirou was gudou and could cut throne.

It stated Taiji transcends anything and everything, It is highest form existence, ultimate transcendence and root of everything in reality. Taiji is connected to everything and also outside of them and inherites throne. so taiji >>> throne.

Note: taiji was mentioned not hadou or gudou and gudou gods have taiji too.

We know that to destroy the Throne itself it took deities their strongest power to completely destroy the Throne.

Strongest power? It where stated? Rein and Merc destroyed throne as side effect of their fight and they even weren't concentrating their powers on throne. They also instantly recreated throne after fight.

Your claim also is inconsistent with countless statements about taiji transcending and controlling everything in verse and existing outside of them.

 

[Darksmash]

The holes themselves aren't transcendences.
The act of gaining the perspective of seeing creation as a canvas would be transcendence. Once they are seeing it as a canvas/paper making holes inside of it isn't really any transcendence. It's just....making a hole in the paper. Same for going deeper into the singularity. However since it falls endlessly the difference between Taiji values can be infinite(Whether or not on a 1-A scale is questionable though)

 

[Infera28]

IK. I was trying to saying they made a hole in multiverse and drilled through it/transcended their way into singularity. Then they were trying to making another hole in singularity too, moving through it and transcending their way to throne but even keep making infinite holes, drilling over and over again wasn't enough.

I'm not saying hole had reality-fiction transcendence to singularity.

 

[ZERO7772]

Following for now.

 

[Darksmash]

I would rather prefer this thread die for now

 

[Infera28]

Same. I'm still recovering from losing brain cells in previous thread.

 

[ZERO7772]

I read this on translation site, so please correct me if I am wrong

But supposedly, the different in how the "KKK" route and "Rea route" is whatever or not the Twilight law is broken or not.
Dude to Hadou nature, they are destined to eat each other existence by default, but thanks to Marie's law, three colors were able to coexist under the same world
If Hajun manage to break Twilight law then they would be weakened hence why they can't survive long enough.

The point is Gods with lower Taiji can actually survive for sometime against a stronger one, how the does the three colors vs Hajun battle makes sense if that not the case?

 

[ZERO7772]

I would rather prefer this thread die for now

Wtf you were the one who made it

 

[Darksmash]

Wtf you were the one who made it

Indeed but that was more of a formality

 

[Bernkastelll]

How 90 degrees above baseline even works? Shouldnt it be 90 transcendences?

 

[Infera28]

I read this on translation site, so please correct me if I am wrong

But supposedly, the different in how the "KKK" route and "Rea route" is whatever or not the Twilight law is broken or not.
Dude to Hadou nature, they are destined to eat each other existence by default, but thanks to Marie's law, three colors were able to coexist under the same world
If Hajun manage to break Twilight law then they would be weakened hence why they can't survive long enough.

The point is Gods with lower Taiji can actually survive for sometime against a stronger one, how the does the three colors vs Hajun battle makes sense if that not the case?

What implied that they could have defeated Hajun if Marie had survived? Ren, Reinhard and Mercurius already had whole long fights + simultaneously eating each other without any problem in marie route and rea route. They also had relative taiji. Law clash barely affects them.

Hajun casually one shotted them and called them garbage, trash and etc. It doesn't look like they had any chance:

Here I’ve met the being that lived there — bright, blinding goddess [garbage].
At this moment, the man for the first time acknowledged another person besides himself. Despite being somewhat inferior to his own extremely huge weight, for the first time he has seen an existence that he could compare himself to.

— Metsujin Messou!
With vulgar nonsense of a beast-like being, her compassion was crushed.

Snake of Foreknowledge [Someone I don’t know].
Shining Golden Beast [Who cares].
Eternal Moment [You’re in the way].
Trash, trash, trash… Trash.
— A-ah, just disappear, you garbage. In this universe [here], just me alone is enough.

Despite not being able to use all of their strength, those three still possessed very strong cravings, and even with that, they still weren’t able to achieve anything, because the strength of their enemy was just too big.

Billion, trillion, ten quadrillion, hundred quintillion… What are those? For this god’s Muryoutaisu of Manji Mandala, even the whole strength of the Twilight’s guardians would be nothing.

First, I tore to pieces the Shining Golden Beast [just trash].
Crushing the whole body, and trampling underfoot the light that left afterwards. After the first one disappeared, I felt a faint delight.
I destroyed one half, and threw aside the other one.
His ruined soul didn't even notice its own disappearance, scattering across the singularity in a single strike.

But now, this is the result. Forgetting himself in the single moment because of his friendship, this being was easily crushed in a single moment.
What irony. In an event that has never happened when he was at the Throne, Snake of Eternal Recurrence ceased to exist with a feeling of regret.

 

[ZERO7772]

The point is that they weren't able to Cooperate with each other because their laws kept getting in the way of each other, so instead of it being 3 vs 1, it was basically a 4 way battle due to the nature of Hadou.

Posting a scan of Hajun calling them trash doesn't exactly help in anything.

Despite not being able to use all of their strength
It literally says they were nerfed

 

[Ren1999]

Follow

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

How 90 degrees above baseline even works?

It just means u are 90 levels deep into 1-A

 

[PsychoWarper]

Hajun literally casually defeated them all, using that fight of all fights to disprove the Transcendence doesnt really work.

Even if it is a 1v1v1v1 that doesnt matter as 3 of them are on the same level while Hajun isnt, Hajun one shots Reinhard and gets attack my Merc and refers to it as “noise” and then murks Marie.

 

[Infera28]

The point is that they weren't able to Cooperate with each other because their laws kept getting in the way of each other, so instead of it being 3 vs 1, it was basically a 4 way battle due to the nature of Hadou.

Posting a scan of Hajun calling them trash doesn't exactly help in anything.

Despite not being able to use all of their strength
It literally says they were nerfed

They were weaker but that doesn't imply they could have defeated or even damaged Hajun at full power. Thats only a assumtion really.

Weaker can be only 2% or 5% weaker too. We don't know how much weaker. Ren, Rein and Merc had 1v1v1 and 1v1 fights in Marie Route and Rea Route + simultaneously eating each other too, Even issack was separately affecting them and they weren't much in problem. Again they had relative taiji, It barely affects them.

those three still possessed very strong cravings, and even with that, they still weren’t able to achieve anything, because the strength of their enemy was just too big.

even the whole strength of the Twilight’s guardians would be nothing.

It stated even their whole strength would be nothing. Also wasn't End of Series Hajun depowered to death and still killed Rein, Ren, Marie and Mercurius barely survived?

 

[PsychoWarper]

I think Hajun may have been depowered.

Anyway the only reason the fight didnt instantly end is cause Masada loves going into detail when it comes to battle, he still went about showing how they couldnt harm him and where casually beat.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Hajun literally casually defeated them all, using that fight of all fights to disprove the Transcendence doesnt really work.

Even if it is a 1v1v1v1 that doesnt matter as 3 of them are on the same level while Hajun isnt, Hajun one shots Reinhard and gets attack my Merc and refers to it as “noise” and then murks Marie.

I think Hajun would just be 1-A ad-infinium