Shinza Banshou 1-A discussion

[PsychoWarper]

Tfw for everyone else Throne God key is an upgrade but for Hajun is weaker.

I think we could go for a “possibly Higher” instead but eh.

Anyway it seems for the most part people are fine with us going back to how we used to treat them so all we did in this thread was debate Anti-Feats basically.

 

[Infera28]

Why weaker for Hajun? wasn't he turned weaker after becoming gudou and losing his control over throne and souls? idk KKK enough tho

 

[Ren1999]

Excuse me, I'm sorry I want to ask. This Hadou God is still 1A or not

 

[Infera28]

Every hadou and gudou god is still 1-A. Only high 1-A was removed.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Why weaker for Hajun? wasn't he turned weaker after becoming gudou and losing his control over throne and souls? idk KKK enough tho

Hajun became weaker once he became the Throne God, due to his unique nature when he became the TG and the Infinite Souls “latched” on to him it actually weakened his power, afaik I don’t think we ever actually see Hajun at his peak during K3.

 

[ZERO7772]

afaik I don’t think we ever actually see Hajun at his peak during K3.

Only in flash during his fight with the Twilight and her guardians.
Hajun indeed was already nerfed when the story began and they nerf him to ******* hell by the time Habaki confront him.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Yeah Hajun gets hella nerfed, he loses the tumor, his Law is cracked cause some weird shit, loses his hybrid status and gets nerfed by the Thrones infinite souls.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What even justifies the "likely higher".

 

[PsychoWarper]

I still think it would be possibly but what ever, honestly im just kinda tired of this whole debate.

Seems people dont have an issue with the old stuff so if we went with that its simple and we could finally bring a close to this.

 

[Udlmaster]

What even justifies the "likely higher".

A Desperation to want the possibility of Higher Tiers.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Depending on some interruptions there could be higher stuff but atm im fine leaving it at just 1-A, if we eventually find evidence for higher stuff we can handle it then.

 

[Infera28]

Hajun became weaker once he became the Throne God, due to his unique nature when he became the TG and the Infinite Souls “latched” on to him it actually weakened his power

I heard a different story about it? he was annoyed by souls so his rage consistenly increased his taiji and power. So actually infinite souls helped him.

but idk if this is true or not.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I heard a different story about it? he was annoyed by souls so his rage consistenly increased his taiji and power. So actually infinite souls helped him.

but idk if this is true or not.

No its not, from what ive heard the Infinite Souls made him weaker and massively distracted him, it’s basically why he did nothing the entire story cause he was trying to get rid of them.

 

[ZERO7772]

I heard a different story about it? he was annoyed by souls so his rage consistenly increased his taiji and power. So actually infinite souls helped him.

but idk if this is true or not.

It literally says he's weaker as a throne god on his profile ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[Darksmash]

The world would be so nice if people cared more about forming an accurate and consistent interpretation of the cosmology rather than trying to get the characters as high as possible. But guess that's asking too much.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Hajun gets weaker with souls. Literally that's why he's also weird as a hadou god as he gets stronger being alone.

 

[Ren1999]

So the decision is this thread Hadou God wants to get tier 1A or not, or can it be higher than baseline 1A

 

[Kaizuka_Satomi]

Spoiler: Oof, the discussion barely progress at all. Well, at least I'm revitalized.

Again why the **** are we assuming yato is like 65 or anywhere his peak if its breaks the taiji's way of fighting.

I'm not assuming. I've proved that Yakou has higher Taiyoku value. Scroll up, I don't want to repeat a fouth time.

And why are you assuming time loops shit for Rein because it has nothing to do with his law...Like nothing implied merc was talking about rein specifically when he was there with ren. He stopped them from fighting a fruitless battle that falls endlessly.

Christ you assume all of DI english is wrong when there is consistency there like holy hell. Then prove its wrong.

あなたはそうして、彼と何処までも穴の底へ落ち続けるのか？それが望みと？

Btw this quote is saying: Is that what you want? To keep falling endlessly down the hole with him? Is that what you desire?

Which is consistent with the english you hate so much.

"何処までも" is endlessly?
The correct translation is "Is that what you're going to do, keep falling down the hole with him to nowhere? Is that what you want?"
But well, I give you some insight about the context:
Kichi meant the battle would lead them to nowhere. I can sympathize with you for failing to translate by yourself and relying on mistranslation though, language barrier is a bitch. Considering the context that if Setsuna and Shura keep fighting they will ended up facing Kichi, then defeating him means loop. So Ren and Reinhard could repeat the same fight again and again, leading to nowhere. Kichi only need Marie to take the throne in the first place, not two fools who will turn the world into a living hell.
Let us call this... a scan taken out of context.

You didn't prove anything about Yakou vs ootake at all. All you said was Yakou was overpowering. Which is possible despite being at the same grade. Did we just forget ren was about to get overpowered in 3 colors?

All the gods fights haven't proven their taijis are different at all. Stop using ootake vs yakou when it clearly shows the two were affecting the other to some capacity (if it was different yakou could incinerate Ootake with ootake unable to do anything back. The literal basis of a taiji battle).
Two points.

First, scroll up. What I proved is not only Yakou overpowering Ootake, he D-E-V-O-U-R Ootake. Sorry for the tone, I simplt has realized I forgot to empathize on the D-E-V-O-U-R part so you must have been conveniently overlooked it. Crap, I repeated it a fourth time.
Second, are you sure Setsuna is equal with Kichi and Shura? Guess you have conveniently forget that Hadou God's power relied on the souls they has as well and the only soul Ren has is Marie, while Reinhard has a ******* Legion and Mercurius has just countless souls from the multiverse. That's it, Ren's Taiyoku is lower than his other two opponents. All the souls he snatched from Reinhard are top-quality ones which is why has he has a sudden power boost and match the rest in the later phase of the Three Color fight. sign This is the result of relying on mistranslation.
This is convenient, so I'll bring it up too. Ren has lower Taiyoku. The gap should be infinite. Yet he tank hits and still alive. Think, by yourself, not by letting other spoonfeeding you.

Tenma fukutetsu is literally imposing the loser status on the tenmas and flattening their law by calling them with their true names.

夜都賀波岐たち、旧世界の存在をかつての名＝咒(神号・神咒)で呼ぶ力。夜都賀波岐たちは旧世界の英雄であり、第六天波旬との戦いに敗れたことで「敗者の型」に嵌められてしまった存在である。穢土の中では無間大紅蓮地獄の展開で神の如き力を発揮する無敵の存在でいられるが、「勝者の型」を持つ西の者からかつての名で呼ばれると再び「敗者」であることを強制されてしまい、時間停止の鎧は砕け、大幅に力を削がれて存在そのものが霧散しかけてしまう。

Mentions the tenmas are in the losers state and thus by calling their true names it flattens the time armor.

I also don't get how machina's opponent being stronger would work with the taiji system. Hell that's when Ootake/Machina just said screw it and showed his face which wrecked Yakou until hajun ressurected him and made him finish the job.

Sukuna can only pose a threat to the same taiji as yato (which if anyone remembers sukuna is yato's apoptosis which makes their taiji the bloody same) so he can't null for the life of him or not it will turn on him if its bigger. Ootake who is also 50 has nothing to say he wasn't affecting yakou. He stopped using his fist and went to the face which as i mentioned took down Yakou (but the taiji didn't increase he just had his armor as a restrain to not kill with a glare).

Machina always was capable of erasing people stronger than himself. Your point? mountain level Machina could erase Reinhard, Mercurius, Methuselah (beyond briah degree), Gudou God Marie, Hadou God Ren and it stated his briah always interferes with Mercurius's story. If anything erasing Yakou is a feat for Ootake rather than some debunk for taiji difference.

“Tenma Fukumetsu” is literally LLT, a weapon with feats of harming/battling against characters far higher than any of the Tenma’s. Now sure Rindou’s LLT isnt quite on par with Reinhards that doesnt mean its fallen to a level below the Tenma’s, so isnt that just more feats for LLT?

Even disregarding LLT is a God Slaying weapon she literally is calling out their “loser status”, as those who got murked by Hajun and forcibly reincarnated, by revealing their true names and debuffing them.

By Shurado are you referring to Shura Mandala? Which iirc is referring to Rainhards Universe and directly related to the Gods, Ryumei is literally using the last remaining “divinity” of the Shurado. Also Teirei is literally a Kamunagara which is a physical manifestation of a Law

In short, attribute does matter in a Taiyoku battle regardless of the Taiyoku difference, otherwise neither Tenma Fukumetsu, Ootake's nothingness, nor Shura Mandala user could stand a chance against the Tenma because the user's value is lower (and Shura Mandala within Dai Roku Ten is a remnant at best as it's God is dead. unlike Guren Jigoku as Tenma Yato is still alive)

I was talking about past. Those dudes are retired and they wouldn't fact check anymore. But frankly someone who read KKK should fact check your points. I can't trust you without any backup. That's like revising a verse without any fact checking and agreement from reliable members. Making sense isn't enough someone WHO READ KKK should fact check your points too. Especially your points are pretty controversial.

Don't mind don't mind, your arguments hold zero gravity to me either since all you did is wild mass guessing and created details out of thin air, befitting a non reader. I've tread water for two days and none pop-up for fact check, so I will take silence as agreeing with me by the way. Feel free to find someone who has read K3 and provide a deeper context to my scans, I would appreciate that since spending hours on reading Dream Cycle is better than wasting minutes in that game.

If a universe buster will god stomp some planet level dude, our planet level dude is stomped to death but not killed and saved by someone else then we should downgrade universe buster to planet level too? we don't do such thing in this wiki, because that doesn't make any sense and plot is a thing. Writer can't just one shot and murder every main character. That takes fun and stress away from story.

Two words: Attack Potency. Maybe you are new to this wiki, so let me explain it:

An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive Capacity that an attack is equivalent to. A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level, but can cause damage to characters that can withstand such forces. As such it isn't proof of a low attack potency, if a character's attacks only cause a small amount of destruction.

In a Vs debate, a universe destroyer doesn't mean they will automatically destroy the whole universe with their attack. Welcome to Vs Battle Wiki, fellow lurker!
Ah, and sorry for ignoring you the day before. I know the context I provided make sense as well, but realizing that you might not aware of Attack Potency raised some concern within my heart so I have to bring your argument back and giving a more satisfying explaination

How is yato bluffing? That's a blatant lie cuz like why lie? He's in a disadvantage and he gains nothing for saying smth like that. He knows what he's into and all he can do is use the chips available. Hell masada said fighting Hajun directly is stupid so he needed Habaki.

I said Yato is bluffing because people inside Dai Roku Ten can still do lot's of thing despite having lower Taiyoku value. That rule is not absolute. Such as Ootake capable of nuking Yakou despite being devouring by the latter (and before that he delete Yakou countless times), such as Setusna surviving the first fight of the Three Color Battle despite lacking LDO souls thus having lower Taiyoku value (remember, the only soul he has is Marie), and Ryumei and Teirei defeating Tenma with Shurado.

...Alright, thanks for helping me so far, guys. I will round up everything I found by debating with you lots, as well as everything I presented as a Too Long Don't Read.

Spoiler: TL;DR

• In a Taiyoku battle, the stronger will devour the weaker. Having the same color of Taiyoku would also means the devoured will be overload and breaking down as well.

• In a Taiyoku battle, value do matter, but attribute matters as well, and just as vital as value, when there are many attributes proved to bypass value, such as Tenma Fukumetsu and Ootake's craving, contradict to this infamous claim.

Taiji battles are based on teh fact u can't do shit no matter what. Attributes and such are secondary. U will never hurt them even. I can even use that painting analogy because for a taiji fight u NEED to be on the same grade/level if u even want to scratch them because all the fights are when they are the same sans Hajun who literally was untouchable until an amount of circumstances allowed the EE to win.

And thus, contradict to this statement, rendering it to a mere bluff, a scan taken out of context.

and also what is your answer to this scan?

"Even if heaven and earth are turned over, it is impossible without the qualifications.
Did you say .... Taiji?
I don't know the details, but at this point nothing should work unless you reach the same level."

That's it, the part of "Taiyoku level must be equal for the attribute to work," is, a bluff. The actual context, is, however, that from Yato vs Habaki battle (and onward), Taiyoku need to reach the same level to work. Because , let's be frank, who Habaki has to get though? Yato. 100 Taiyoku Hadou God. The Strongest Hadou God except Hajun. Then, what's left after Yato? Hajun. Messujin Messo. Muryo Taisuu. Uncountable Taiyoku Hadou God. Unless Habaki can reach the same level, nothing Habaki do could work. Those opponents are a completely different league, that's why at this point nothing should work unless you reach the same level. Just think of this as a line spoken from a shounen villian: "None of your tricks work with me, now FACE ME with your own strength."
Can I say you guys take scan out of context now?

• Eastern Expeditors, despite having either 0 Taiyoku or extremely low Taiyoku, still survive the fight against Tenma Morei and Tenma Akuro despite the two using Kamunagara, thus using Taiyoku.

Ok, so, finally.

Spoiler: Wheeze

There are nothing to prove that the difference between each Taiyoku level is infinite, or, as Darksmah word out, a God with Taiji 2 transcend a god with Taiji 1 just as much as the god with Taiji 1 transcends a normal human. You don't always need to have the same value to do something to your opponent in a Taiyoku battle, as it has been shown consistently within Kajiri Kamui Kagura. The only cases prove something else is Yato vs Habaki and Hajun vs Habaki, in which the former is that overwhelming that trickeries relied on attribute does not work anymore, only raw power, mano-a-mano, is the key to victory there.

Beside, if the gap is really infinite, Eastern Expeditors should have been crushed into dust by a mere touch of Tenma Morei and Tenma Akuro's Kamunagara. Otherwise the definition of infinity in Shinza is pathetic as hell.

If you ask me what is the good definitetion of infinite, look at Demonbane's Lemuria Impact: infinite heat sublimate everything swallowed within, leaving literally no trace of existence left. In short, an existence erasure performed not by hax, but by pure, raw, destructive attack potency. Or, look at Al Bad End. Kurou literally perish as he feel the presence of Azathoth. That is how I definite "a gap of power as wide as infinity", as well as "completely transcend a human."

Question: Does a God with Taiji 2 transcend a god with Taiji 1 just as much as the god with Taiji 1 transcends a normal human?

Answer: No. The whole thing is just a fabrication made by Shinza fanboys, a gigantic wank. That is my conclusion.

No point keep following considering that Red and Infe's argument make less and less sense to me, so this is my final input on this thread. Unwatch time, have fun debating Darksmash, you started it all so maybe you should be the one to end it all.

My advice for you though, Smash, looking at the absolute state of Shinza fandom made me realized that if you really want to change the mind of them then read through the novels properly and make a respect thread from it. Discussion would lead to nowhere, because I can see Red and Infe bringing out even more nonsensical to twist my words. That's it, ping me if you make one.

 

[Chasekilleen]

Time to unwatch this thread. This is leading nowhere lmao. This is basically Ravenous' translations vs Revengers' translations. Both are which questionable in quality.

 

[Lapsad]

My advicement is we need more staff to control this stituation.

 

[ZERO7772]

It's not like staff can do much.
Barely anyone has read KKK and even if they want to read it, they can't read the damn thing because it's untranslated kanji hell that it seems even JP readers complain about so it will likely never be translated.

This is the issue with untranslated verse, barely anyone can fact-check on it, so you have what a selective few says at face value without the ability to verify it or give an opinion about it, this is ignoring the "mistranslated" shit that some goes about.

It's a mess

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

You didnt at the time. All you said was he is higher but that is like end game when he HAS two versions of his taiji (as hajun's hunting dog and post ryuusui ressurection). I'm the one scratching my head with how you kept claiming smth like same grade doesn't matter when the pages even said it matters. And why use Yakou when he is Hajun's shit janitor when the stats are talking after he was ressurected by ryuusui.

Tenma fukutetsu literally flattens the losers law. Did you not understand this means it breaks it??

Masada even mentioned they didn't even need to AoE to deal that much damage. It was the quality that mattered so...

U do know everyone was frozen by his law in an instant? Yato was not ******* around but Habaki's connections let him live. And did you not read the thread before where it was mentioned Habaki was Hajun's counter??? Because he was facing the source or his rage???

The tenmas weren't using taikyoku actively. Hell they CAN turn it off unlike Yato because they are his legion.

I guess we are ignoring the statement that said: Attributes are secondary to grade huh?

Yato was stated to also be a cheat in many ways (like how only his soul surpassed his predesessor) but wasn't getting anywhere. Plus Hajun wasn't even actively paying attention only trying to kill the dust around him. He let's trash kill trash anyway. Firstly u have to be joking about Ren even having a lower value when the fight started. Actually i must ask. is 60 the same grade as 59? Because from what I see no it isn't. Ren's law would have 0 effect if he was lower. He was about to lose but overturned it with more souls (btw he was the only one really fighting so no marie). Ryuumei and the shikigamis use the remanants to blow up their enemies (ryuumei with momiji's army and the shikigamis with numahime using shurado's remanents which have taiji) and before you say: THey have 0 taiji (at least for the shikigamis) you are looking at their distortion stats not their taiji stats. It wasn't mentioned but we can deduce that much you know with what we have...

つまるところ、太極同士の戦闘で何よりも重要になるのは自己のルールを押し付けられるだけの太極の格であり、大なり小なり自分のルールを押し付けられる程度の力の拮抗があって始めてルールの内容が問題となる。
太極の格の要素としては、存在強度、魂の量、渇望の強さ(魂の質)、などがある。多くの場合、太極の格が高いと神格自身も強いので、仮に太極の内容が敵に該当しないもの*1だとしても敵を塗り潰せるのに(例えば火力が足りないなどの理由で)勝てないということは自滅でもしない限り、まず無い。

The grade is most important and contents of the law don't unless its the same...

You are the one taking a lot of things out of context or even misreading all this without checking again expecting it to be outright stated when with the info given we can figure smth out.

I can technically point how Habaki looks at Yato as a transcendent existent as a gudou (but again why is he alive was cuz tumor's shit) his page even says on how he was able to eventually win thx to boost. Otherwise he would have been frozen like his EE members.

　分かるのは、その祈りが人の持ちえる願望の枠や重量というものを、遙かにぶっ千切った域であること。狂気などと生易しいものではなく、まさに超越した存在なのだ。

What I can see is that the prayer is far beyond the frame and weight of human desires. It is not something as simple as insanity, but a truly transcendent existence.

Just saying but my biggest gripe is that the bluff of Yato's statement is absolutely smth one must ignore from other showings and deductions that have explanations + an extreme amount of headcanon rivalling hajun's narcassism.

 

[PsychoWarper]

In short, attribute does matter in a Taiyoku battle regardless of the Taiyoku difference, otherwise neither Tenma Fukumetsu, Ootake's nothingness, nor Shura Mandala user could stand a chance against the Tenma because the user's value is lower (and Shura Mandala within Dai Roku Ten is a remnant at best as it's God is dead. unlike Guren Jigoku as Tenma Yato is still alive)

Fukumetsu is power from a god higher than any of the Tenmas besides Peak Yato (Who only reaches that after he sacrifices his legion), even if its a portion of it its still the spear of Reinhard and weapon designed to kill Mercurius both Gods of 90 taiji aka a higher value than the Tenma.

You’re also ignoring the whole “loser status” part which is a debuff enforced basically by Hajun which debuffs them.

In terms of Ootakes nothingness again we still don’t actually know Yakous value in that fight so it could very well simply be a battle of attributes, Ootakes armor restricts his power and hell he didnt even kill Yakou as Yakou regenerated iirc

And lets say that does count if thats the only thing you’ve got then it could very essily be seen as an outlier

Shura Mandala may be a remnant but its still the remnant of a Dead God who had higher Taiji

 

[PsychoWarper]

At this point this thread is tiresome and going nowhere, we’ve just been going in a circle.

No staff is ever going to really say something hesr beyond making sure we dont get to aggressive or Ant asking if we’ve come to a conclusion.

Most of the people here seem to agree woth going back to how we used to treat them prior to the Ravenous revisions or something similar to that and we will not add anything like “At least” or “likely/possibly Higher”.

 

[Infera28]

"何処までも" is endlessly?
The correct translation is "Is that what you're going to do, keep falling down the hole with him to nowhere? Is that what you want?"
But well, I give you some insight about the context:
Kichi meant the battle would lead them to nowhere. I can sympathize with you for failing to translate by yourself and relying on mistranslation though, language barrier is a bitch. Considering the context that if Setsuna and Shura keep fighting they will ended up facing Kichi, then defeating him means loop. So Ren and Reinhard could repeat the same fight again and again, leading to nowhere. Kichi only need Marie to take the throne in the first place, not two fools who will turn the world into a living hell.
Let us call this... a scan taken out of context.

I used multiple different sites for あなたはそうして、彼と何処までも穴の底へ落ち続けるのか？それが望みと？and this was result

Google: Do you then continue to fall to the bottom of the hole with him forever? Is that what you want?

Yandex: Do you keep falling to the bottom of the hole with him forever? Is that what you want?

Romaji desu: Do you then continue to fall to the bottom of the hole with him forever?

And keep falling down to nowhere, implies bottomless distance. If i'm keep falling down to nowhere then there isn't any end. There isn't anywhere for landing but nowehere and nowehre.

Having endless fights in endless time loops is purely your headcanon. They were cleary talking about "current" fight. At this point you are relying on headcanon for downgrading verse.

Rein: We are not done yet. Do not interfere.

Merc: I had no intention of doing that.

Surely you are not blind to the importance of this place. I would prefer you not to commit any reckless recoloring here.

Much like life itself, a painting drawn on a blank canvas ought to begin with a single color from a single brush. I believe that makes the result more beautiful.

I would not tolerate you creating a chaos of colors and tearing open a hole akin to the one you had made in the realm of foreknowledge. Such conduct would be no Emanation, but a fall.

Do you intend to continue this endless downfall towards the bottom of the hole? Is that what you desire?

Allow me to ask you, as well, Do you wish this place tainted with an amalgam of colors?

Ren: We can't emanate here?

Merc: Until it is made obvious who it should belong to, that is.

Continue, and you shall merely open yet another hole. There would be no end to this. More than anything, I would loathe to withness the defilement of this realm.

I will ask everyone inthread. That looks like having endless fights in endless time loops?!

Mercurius stopped them because they were recoloring and ruining twilight beach (I will prefer Mercurius's words over yours) and twilight beach was dear to him. It even was stated by Mercurius himself:

Ren: We can't emanate here?

Merc: Until it is made obvious who it should belong to, that is.

He only tried to stopping recoloring.

First, scroll up. What I proved is not only Yakou overpowering Ootake, he D-E-V-O-U-R Ootake. Sorry for the tone, I simplt has realized I forgot to empathize on the D-E-V-O-U-R part so you must have been conveniently overlooked it. Crap, I repeated it a fourth time.

3D Machina could kill 1-A gods. So erasing yakou with higher taiji doesn't debunk taiji difference. Also according to yourself taiji's attribute is important too. So under specfic circumstances weaker taiji can contend with higher taiji and their difference will be reduced. That doesn't debunk infinite difference at all. Unless you have some specfic conditions or you are infinitely weaker than higher taiji, similar to marie route. Ren and Rein hadn't those specific conditions so Mercurius was infinitely beyond them.

Second, are you sure Setsuna is equal with Kichi and Shura? Guess you have conveniently forget that Hadou God's power relied on the souls they has as well and the only soul Ren has is Marie, while Reinhard has a ******* Legion and Mercurius has just countless souls from the multiverse. That's it, Ren's Taiyoku is lower than his other two opponents. All the souls he snatched from Reinhard are top-quality ones which is why has he has a sudden power boost and match the rest in the later phase of the Three Color fight. sign This is the result of relying on mistranslation.
This is convenient, so I'll bring it up too. Ren has lower Taiyoku. The gap should be infinite. Yet he tank hits and still alive. Think, by yourself, not by letting other spoonfeeding you.

You can be weaker than someone and still have same taiji as them. I can lose to somone relative to myself in a boxing much. Damn they even can knock out me. Ren and Rein had a equal taiji value 85. It was stated in guide book irrc.

In short, attribute does matter in a Taiyoku battle regardless of the Taiyoku difference, otherwise neither Tenma Fukumetsu, Ootake's nothingness, nor Shura Mandala user could stand a chance against the Tenma because the user's value is lower (and Shura Mandala within Dai Roku Ten is a remnant at best as it's God is dead. unlike Guren Jigoku as Tenma Yato is still alive)

Thanks for debunking whole your points. So difference between each taiji is infinite unless under specific circumstances such as having certain attribute in certain situation.

Don't mind don't mind, your arguments hold zero gravity to me either since all you did is wild mass guessing and created details out of thin air, befitting a non reader. I've tread water for two days and none pop-up for fact check, so I will take silence as agreeing with me by the way. Feel free to find someone who has read K3 and provide a deeper context to my scans, I would appreciate that since spending hours on reading Dream Cycle is better than wasting minutes in that game.

Silence = / = agreement

They are silent because they never read KKK for fact checking you

In a Vs debate, a universe destroyer doesn't mean they will automatically destroy the whole universe with their attack. Welcome to Vs Battle Wiki, fellow lurker!
Ah, and sorry for ignoring you the day before. I know the context I provided make sense as well, but realizing that you might not aware of Attack Potency raised some concern within my heart so I have to bring your argument back and giving a more satisfying explaination

I never said that. Whole this paragraph was one of the biggest strawmans i ever seen.

That's it, the part of "Taiyoku level must be equal for the attribute to work," is, a bluff. The actual context, is, however, that from Yato vs Habaki battle (and onward), Taiyoku need to reach the same level to work. Because , let's be frank, who Habaki has to get though? Yato. 100 Taiyoku Hadou God. The Strongest Hadou God except Hajun. Then, what's left after Yato? Hajun. Messujin Messo. Muryo Taisuu. Uncountable Taiyoku Hadou God. Unless Habaki can reach the same level, nothing Habaki do could work. Those opponents are a completely different league, that's why at this point nothing should work unless you reach the same level. Just think of this as a line spoken from a shounen villian: "None of your tricks work with me, now FACE ME with your own strength."
Can I say you guys take scan out of context now?

• Eastern Expeditors, despite having either 0 Taiyoku or extremely low Taiyoku, still survive the fight against Tenma Morei and Tenma Akuro despite the two using Kamunagara, thus using Taiyoku.

I will leave debunking this part for Red. But it doesn't debunk statements such as endless downfall towards the bottom of the hole, making infinite holes without any end, transcending weaker taiji and making it void, singularity already being infinite in size and each taiji making it immeasurably deeper and....

Beside, if the gap is really infinite, Eastern Expeditors should have been crushed into dust by a mere touch of Tenma Morei and Tenma Akuro's Kamunagara. Otherwise the definition of infinity in Shinza is pathetic as hell.

I will repeat my point again:

If a universe buster will god stomp some planet level dude, our planet level dude is stomped to death but not killed and saved by someone else then we should downgrade universe buster to planet level too? we don't do such thing in this wiki, because that doesn't make any sense and plot is a thing. Writer can't just one shot and murder every main character. That takes fun and stress away from story.

Tenmas stomped EE to death and EE was saved by someone else. So how in hell this debunks taiji difference?

Even going with your flawed logic EE is made of mountain busters and tenmas are 1-A. Yet members of EE weren't killed, only god stomped and saved by someone else. So now we should downgrade tenmas and taiji to mountain level i guess. Because members of EE weren't instantly reduced to dust. Check your logic again please.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I mean shit the Tenmas have full control over their own offensive power they can make themselves Mountain level if they want or Outerversal if they want.

Also just cause a character in fiction isn’t instantly reduced to dust when fighting a character massively stronger than them isn’t automatically an anti-feat as this isnt real life, its a common thing seen in fiction that even if a character is absolutely stronger than you that doesnt mean that character will get insta nuked especially if they are main characters. Not everything should be written off due to plot but PIS is a legitimate thing that can happen in a verse as obviously the author cant have the main characters insta die (Although Habaki and Rindou wouldnt have died anyway due to their connection to the Tumor).

 

[Infera28]

Now that i think again Red is making most sense and difference between each taiji may be infinite.

Anyway we should close this thread. This is going nowehere and nobody can fact check and verify claims because KKK is in japanese and the knowledgeable members who read KKK are retired from wiki or scaling masadaverse.

 

[Ren1999]

he said In Vs battle There are Japanese people, if the Translate problem, why don't you call the Japanese, discuss it here about the
Translate Shinza

 

[Kaizuka_Satomi]

Seems like my decision was right. You lots have a knack of taking things out of context to turn everything into feat. Should have some mod close the thread, none of you understood 10% of my argument thus keep going is even more pointless.

Now, in order to ignore the whole fandom wanking the verse right before my eyes, I will attend to my own issue.

Time to unwatch this thread. This is leading nowhere lmao. This is basically Ravenous' translations vs Revengers' translations. Both are which questionable in quality.

If you are questionable about the translation, then at least point out thanks. I don't know whom (the two that you mentioned) you are talking about. At least I'm not just hiding in some server and bluffing with others while you yourself can't prove anything.



If you are thinking that I must using some sort of translation that turns from Chinese to Vietnamese then English or some shit like that, then congratulations

Adieu.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

3D Machina could kill 1-A gods. So erasing yakou with higher taiji doesn't debunk taiji difference. Also according to yourself taiji's attribute is important too. So under specfic circumstances weaker taiji can contend with higher taiji and their difference will be reduced. That doesn't debunk infinite difference at all. Unless you have some specfic conditions or you are infinitely weaker than higher taiji, similar to marie route. Ren and Rein hadn't those specific conditions so Mercurius was infinitely beyond them.

Tbf i'm pretty sure 3D machina cannot kill 1-A gods. Attributes only really matter when a taiji grade is the same like the exact same. Atwiki even said the only way for a lower one to win is if the higher one's taiji somehow self-destructs or smth so there is that

I swear though saying Yato was bluffing is pretty stupid on its own. Like he's not only an nigh-omniscience deity but he even just asked the name of the thing they use (aka taiji cuz in his world its atziluth). Saying its taken out of context or Yato is a bluffer is dumb.

Masada as I said even said this:

攻撃の規模と深さは別物だと言うこと。仮に核爆発でも砕けない石ころがあったとして、その石を断てる剣があれば剣>核という構図になります。あのとき、夜刀が使っていた技の数々は剣に属するものだった。そういうことです。

Yato wasn't holding back but he wasn't out to destroy everything but he is capable of controlling the AoE. Its just the quality is more focused.

波旬>夜刀>水銀=黄金(対水銀時限定)>黄昏=天照>明星=黄金(通常)=蓮>第二>第一>覇吐=竜胆=夜行>紫織=宗次郎>龍水。

Ryuusui has the same taiji as mibu and shiori yet she;s weaker (attributes and power would be relevant only at that point).

I really have to stress this out so no one gets confused for some reason: Grade > Attributes in a taiji battle. I don't see anything unless its extremely circumstantial that disproves this be it the EE fights or how rein vs ren forces them to fall endlessly and never reaching the throne of the serpent.

 

[Nepuko]

Goodness, guys. The title of the thread is discussion not Gladiators' Arena.

 

[BleedingPeach]

In what things most of the Shinza-fans agree? Because is so simple to look at the things you differ with... also if there's a lot of interpretations, you should know that there won't be an universal trutn regarding the verse if someone tries, not to convince, but to impose their point of view. Anyway, get along guys, if a dogma is what you want, then you'll gonna need consensus to reach far higher. (giggity)

 

[PsychoWarper]

You where ignoring key parts of powers to suit your point but whatever if it ends this thread then so be it.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Goodness, guys. The title of the thread is discussion not Gladiators' Arena.

I mean Shinza threads are always like that, ain't they

 

[PsychoWarper]

Shinza tiering threads can definitely get like this, vs threads usually arnt that bad tho.

 

[Chasekilleen]

If you are questionable about the translation, then at least point out thanks. I don't know whom (the two that you mentioned) you are talking about. At least I'm not just hiding in some server and bluffing with others while you yourself can't prove anything.

I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings by saying that your favourite idol's translations were questionable.
You don't know who I'm talking about despite saying that you were using Revengers' English translations above on the first page and you don't know who Ravenous is, the main person that bumped Shinza to High 1-A?

If you are thinking that I must using some sort of translation that turns from Chinese to Vietnamese then English or some shit like that, then congratulations

Huh, no wonder it's so questionable in quality? You're using machine translation?

 

[Duedate8898]

Yo, consider this a warning, keep it calm to all here. It looks like this is getting close to spiraling and if it does, I will close this.
That's all.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Thank you, but I honestly think this can be closed as the only real debate atm is a circular one and the main person debating has asked it to be closed and seemingly doesnt want to debate anymore.

 

[BleedingPeach]

In the end Warren was the one who held the order in cases like this one. Guys, try to get along because the way you're trying to talk seems more like a intern for who is right and prove that the other is wrong. I don't care if you don't like what I said but please, no truth is irrefutable and if you don't unite... what's the purpose of this thread?

 

[PsychoWarper]

You are right, us getting overly aggressive and/or becoming irritated helps nothing and no one.