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SHINZA IS BACK!!!!!

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DontTalkDT said:
That seems like a fairly normal description of R>F stuff. ToAru in fact just describes things relating to its regular reality warping quite similar, which isn't even R>F. (and the sigularity sounds like the Hidden World...) Well, I guess that analogy isn't helpful if you don't know that verse.
Anyway, my point is, all you're really showing here is that they can locally erase the concept of space in the world they see as a painting. Or I guess locally erase all concepts. That's just no reason for a tiering upgrade. That's just good concept erasure.
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Just need to clarify on this, but I do want to ask you a question. We know that these things are part of the picture the gods create. What Pain is arguing, if I may just paraphrase, is that changes to the picture don't matter to the gods (keep in mind that said picture still embodies the existence of higher dimensions), and they're above all expansions of concepts of time, space, and dimensionality. Could that not offer a 1A rating?

Taikyoku, The throne and Singularity will be 1-A, based on the fact that they are completely removed from creation and change (addition or removal) in dimensional structure of the universe has no effect on Taikyoku, The Throne and Singularity. They are also the source of all concept in the verse and they transcend all of these concepts and do not participate in it.
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This is ripped straight from the blog, but if we take this into account, then it should qualify for a 1A tier according to our FAQ, which states:

A: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well.
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Vasco said:
Glad you know.
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What? I was saying that in context it's not to purpose an argument for a realm being 1A

Vasco said:
Coordinates and directions exists in our reality also.
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The point is that would be part of the "any concept simple or complex" thing

Vasco said:
So it's almost impossible if not impossible to access it?
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It is impossible to access it, yeah. There's other stuff like the multiverse being a chess board for guys like Reinhard and Mercurius, and Gladsheim being literally too big to enter the multiverse, but that's something for a separate discussion.
 
Tarang123 said:
What? I was saying that in context it's not to purpose an argument for a realm being 1A


Cool, not the point


It is impossible to access it, yeah. There's other stuff like the multiverse being a chess board for guys like Reinhard and Mercurius, and Gladsheim being literally too big to enter the multiverse, but that's something for a separate discussion.
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Fine

Then what is?

I've seen those already but not the Gladsheim bigger than the multiverse but I don't really care.
 
Vasco said:
Then what is?
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The point is that those concepts are explicitly part of their worlds, and changes made, along with cosmological size differences in the picture don't matter to anything above the picture. Hence the argument for 1A

Vasco said:
I've seen those already but not the Gladsheim bigger than the multiverse but I don't really care.
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Yeah, it's not all that important for the purpose of this thread
 
Tarang123 said:
The point is that those concepts are explicitly part of their worlds, and changes made, along with cosmological size differences in the picture don't matter to anything above the picture. Hence the argument for 1A
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Isn't that just 1 level of transcendence?
 
Vasco said:
Isn't that just 1 level of transcendence?
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I'll just quote the FAQ, and hopefully it should give some light as to the path the argument is taking.

A: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well.
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DontTalkDT said:
I mean... alright. But if this is just to demonstrate that it is no anti-feat then it of course doesn't support the premise in itself.


That's a good feat regarding abstractness, but doesn't really mean anything regarding power. Well, maybe viewing it as a painting is enough for R>F, but even reality fiction that views all concepts and similar as fiction is still just one infinity step.


I could make a comparision to Kawakami's power of Will, which is also more fundamental than concepts and stuff, but not in any tiering relevant way. So, while Taikyuko has an impressive standing in terms of how abstract and fundamental it is, I don't consider it being above or the gods being outside of regular concepts to be something that supports infinite layers of infinity higher at all.

Yeah, same thing as 3. basically. That's just good manipulation. (I could again compare to Noah, although Noah admittedly doesn't have the R>F aspect over the regular universe... although R>F arguably exists within the concepts she controls, just in the below the regular universe direction...)
While the gods have a R>F transcendence over reality with feats of controlling it at an incredibly fundamental level, laws concept and everything, this just isn't something they need to be infinite levels of infinity stronger than it to have. Infinitely stronger seems enough.

That seems like a fairly normal description of R>F stuff. ToAru in fact just describes things relating to its regular reality warping quite similar, which isn't even R>F. (and the sigularity sounds like the Hidden World...) Well, I guess that analogy isn't helpful if you don't know that verse.
Anyway, my point is, all you're really showing here is that they can locally erase the concept of space in the world they see as a painting. Or I guess locally erase all concepts. That's just no reason for a tiering upgrade. That's just good concept erasure.

(Let me add that, from what is said in the first quote, the singularity seems to be actually on the paper not a tear in it? Doesn't really matter for the debate, though.)

That singularity stuff is interesting, but ultimately seems to have to do with those of lesser Taikyoku being denied entrance, rather than something relating to infinite layers of infinity, I thihk?


If so, my total takeaway from this is that you have demonstrated the existence of a power more abstract than concept, really good concept manipulation + erasure and a R>F difference-like relationship, but I don't think any of this separately or all together really is a subject that would justify infinite levels of infinity in power jump.
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I think you are missing a lot of context from what was said in the blog and just replying to my message which is supposed to be a supporting message for the blog, but before we continue can you reply this message
Tarang123 said:
I'll just quote the FAQ, and hopefully it should give some light as to the path the argument is taking.
Click to expand...
A: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well.
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Cause,
1. I have proven they are unaffected by arbitrarily adding or removal of dimensions from physical space cause they transcend it
2. I have proven they exist above the background or canvas of some sort to which any number of dimension can be added.

Even though this two criterias are "or" they actually fulfilled both of them. So which part of these two criterias are you not seeing, so maybe I can make a detailed post using whats from the blog and new stuffs to explain better
 
PrinceofPein said:
I think you are missing a lot of context from what was said in the blog and just replying to my message which is supposed to be a supporting message for the blog, but before we continue can you reply this message


Cause,
1. I have proven they are unaffected by arbitrarily adding or removal of dimensions from physical space cause they transcend it
2. I have proven they exist above the background or canvas of some sort to which any number of dimension can be added.

Even though this two criterias are "or" they actually fulfilled both of them. So which part of these two criterias are you not seeing, so maybe I can make a detailed post using whats from the blog and new stuffs to explain better
Click to expand...
I have found scans for masada having a super space which can be infinite dimensional, is that sufficient for high 1B- low 1-A?
 
Fresh_1280 said:
I'm new to this wiki, how do we send images?🗿
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Upload it to imgur.com, then send the link here, If you want to upload with imgur on mobile, you need to change the site to a desktop site on your browser
Or alternatively for a start or if you are not on a pc, you can start with sending it to anyone on discord, then copy the link to the image and send it here.
 
PrinceofPein said:
Upload it to imgur.com, then send the link here, If you want to upload with imgur on mobile, you need to change the site to a desktop site on your browser
Or alternatively for a start or if you are not on a pc, you can start with sending it to anyone on discord, then copy the link to the image and send it here.
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When I do it, it says "Image cannot be uploaded with passed link"
 
DontTalkDT said:
Got some time on the train so I will reply to this one from the phone. (so excuse any lack of elegance)

If you want a counter example to this being relevant look no further than Noah from Owari no Chronicle. She controls all concepts and can exist outside of them and is barely Tier 2.

Going from all concepts to 1-A is just a NLF. One could just as easily argue it should be Tier 0 due to large cardinal concepts being included.

Neither really fulfills our standards of evidence. There must be some statement of infinite hierarchies so that we can say with reasonable certainty that those are included in "all concepts". Then we could argue like that.

(have not read through all other replies yet so excuse me if something I mentioned was already adressed)
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I just want to say a little bit of something but I think it would be reasonable to think they can manipulate a lot of concepts and fashion it if it was addressed or smth part of the world in Shinza like dimensions or time and such since those are notably the concepts that be manipulated and fashioned in however they see fit if they never really had a limitation about it as such (considering gods do lack smth like time and such). I'm probs just gonna duck out lolz.
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
Shoots Tony

Who did that?
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02AVOrq.png
 
I think I really need to say something. Of course, I know that no one will listen and someone will try to debate with me. Clearly, by this wiki's standards, Shinza is not 1-A. At least not based on the evidence and arguments presented here. Shinza can be really 1-A, but by the standards of this wiki, it is not 1-A, so please give up and don't bother yourself anymore; both DT and Ultima disagreed too, so just give up on 1-A Shinza.

It really doesn't matter that much if Shinza is 1-A or not, it mattered to me once but not anymore, I'm willing to accept Low 1-C Shinza now. Just end this futile war and let Shinza come back here with a tier that matches this wiki's standards, so verse fans can enjoy its presence.

I think High 1-C or 1-B Shinza are closer to the standards of this wiki, so just try to prove them, which I don't think you can, so it's better to accept Low 1-C Shinza and finish this shit show.

Now you can debate with me and the mods as well, but it will get nowhere. If you are real fans of verse, then accept its true tier (based on the standards of this wiki) and don't continue this war.
 
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Infera28 said:
I think I really need to say something. Of course, I know that no one will listen and someone will try to debate with me. Clearly, by this wiki's standards, Shinza is not 1-A. At least not based on the evidence and arguments presented here. Shinza can be really 1-A, but by the standards of this wiki, it is not 1-A, so please give up and don't bother yourself anymore; both DT and Ultimate disagreed too, so just give up on 1-A Shinza.

It really doesn't matter that much if Shinza is 1-A or not, it mattered to me once but not anymore, I'm willing to accept Low 1-C Shinza now. Just end this futile war and let Shinza come back here with a tier that matches this wiki's standards, so verse fans can enjoy its presence.

I think High 1-C or 1-B Shinza are closer to the standards of this wiki, so just try to prove them, which I don't think you can, so it's better to accept Low 1-C Shinza and finish this shit show.

Now you can debate with me and the mods as well, but it will get nowhere. If you are real fans of verse, then accept its true tier (based on the standards of this wiki) and don't continue this war.
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bro, I know you don't know me and I don't know you, but I hope you're doing well
 
Infera28 said:
I think I really need to say something. Of course, I know that no one will listen and someone will try to debate with me. Clearly, by this wiki's standards, Shinza is not 1-A. At least not based on the evidence and arguments presented here. Shinza can be really 1-A, but by the standards of this wiki, it is not 1-A, so please give up and don't bother yourself anymore; both DT and Ultimate disagreed too, so just give up on 1-A Shinza.

It really doesn't matter that much if Shinza is 1-A or not, it mattered to me once but not anymore, I'm willing to accept Low 1-C Shinza now. Just end this futile war and let Shinza come back here with a tier that matches this wiki's standards, so verse fans can enjoy its presence.

I think High 1-C or 1-B Shinza are closer to the standards of this wiki, so just try to prove them, which I don't think you can, so it's better to accept Low 1-C Shinza and finish this shit show.

Now you can debate with me and the mods as well, but it will get nowhere. If you are real fans of verse, then accept its true tier (based on the standards of this wiki) and don't continue this war.
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Its 1B so far, why low 1C?
 
Vasco said:
Didn't DT agree on 13-D?
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His answer was a little vague

DontTalkDT said:
After reading the blog I can say that I personally consider the evidence for 1-B insufficient, though. For a being 1 dimensionality higher, all lower dimensions equally look to be 0 size. So I don't think you have to be infinite layers of infinity higher to match the statements that are given. I think 13D would suffice.
Click to expand...
 
Infera28 said:
I think I really need to say something. Of course, I know that no one will listen and someone will try to debate with me. Clearly, by this wiki's standards, Shinza is not 1-A. At least not based on the evidence and arguments presented here. Shinza can be really 1-A, but by the standards of this wiki, it is not 1-A, so please give up and don't bother yourself anymore; both DT and Ultima disagreed too, so just give up on 1-A Shinza.

It really doesn't matter that much if Shinza is 1-A or not, it mattered to me once but not anymore, I'm willing to accept Low 1-C Shinza now. Just end this futile war and let Shinza come back here with a tier that matches this wiki's standards, so verse fans can enjoy its presence.

I think High 1-C or 1-B Shinza are closer to the standards of this wiki, so just try to prove them, which I don't think you can, so it's better to accept Low 1-C Shinza and finish this shit show.

Now you can debate with me and the mods as well, but it will get nowhere. If you are real fans of verse, then accept its true tier (based on the standards of this wiki) and don't continue this war.
Click to expand...
So the scans of yakou that I presented before don't count as 1A? I have 1A stuffs and higher for shinza but didn't really care in this thread,maybe I can bring mine
 
I can send my arguments but I didn't read all that happened in the thread so idk,maybe some arguments will look similar but Imma just use my arguments which I have since months
 
Reizen23 said:
So the scans of yakou that I presented before don't count as 1A? I have 1A stuffs and higher for shinza but didn't really care in this thread,maybe I can bring mine
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Based on reading the posts of this thread, previous Shinza threads, cosmology blog, my knowledge of wiki standards and the knowledge I have of Shinza, no, they were not enough, and the probability that 1-A Shinza will be accepted is almost zero. If I were you, I would focus on proving 1-B or 1-C Shinza.
 
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