Senna's Feat 2 (ft. Bleach Cosmology)

[EldemadeDityjon]

Verses get upgraded and downgraded all the time. No need to think it’s so personal. I personally don’t agree with the downgrade but I also know I’m not as knowledgeable as some members on Bleach which is why I’m ok with a compromise until some of the more knowledgeable members give their input

Bro I still don't get it. Let me clear something both planets are on different dimensions closed off and spherical in safe. This OP proposal is just planets are moved out of dimensions and almost collapsed but when senna pushed them back they came back to their respective dimension which doesn't even make sense.
There is not even a side effect on both so called planets. This OP itself has no meaning.

So how would planet just move out of both dimension and come back. I hope you getting the point. The downgrade doesn't even make sense.

Dangai connects the both realms not planets. Valley of screams created inside Dangai not in border of dimensions and there was not even a single side effects on either of WOL and SS. This thread should get closed. I don't see any Logic behind the thread.

 

[YukaSama4]

Guys any unnecessary comments should be taken somewhere else out of the thread

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Hilarious on how this is an unnecessary comment

Guys any unnecessary comments should be taken somewhere else out of the thread

Sorry. Gotcha.

 

[AKM sama]

I already warned members that they will be threadbanned if they try to derail the thread with nonsense like "everyone is deadset on downgrading Bleach because bias" or "someone's opinion doesn't matter because they were on some other touhou thread or whatever'.

 

[AKM sama]

The kanji for all of creation is" 全宇宙" which only means universe or "all of creation"not to be confused with sekai which can mean world or universe.

Do you have the raws?

Also, the context of those statements is important. I never denied the existence of universe in Bleach.

"In all of creation many things were ambiguous. There was no such thing as life or death"
The statement is only saying that there was no life and death distinction in the world/universe. That's all. It doesn't say anything about WotL or SS. All it could mean is that a universe exists, which I have not denied. Not to mention that "all of creation" also often means "all living organisms/creatures". Which could fit in this context.

'Whoever rules the gardens of change, it is not as though the foundation of all of creation will change"
You need to post the full context for this statement. Because it only mentions that no matter what changes occur, the foundation of the world/universe will not change. Meaning, the concept of life and death won't change and will continue to go on. Once again, it could be used to confirm the existence of the universe at large, which I have never denied, which SS and WotL are part of. But doesn't say anything about WotL or SS not referring to planets. It's not even referring to WotL or SS.

 

[Blallooo]

Given AKM talked with Cyber and I believe Arc beforehand, it just might be that tier 5 Bleach is more reasonable than tier 3 for the time being. With the new Hell Arc coming it could very well solidify tier 3 Bleach

How does it matter who he talked to or not ? The notion garganta is a dimension which engulfed 3 planets and the rest of the universe is utterly excluded by whatever happened in the series doesn't make sense logically, garganta even said to be expanding endless and unless for endless we don't mean untill the stratosphere I can't see the logic in here, it contraddicts everything, defies common sense by impling that an explosion of that caliber Which drastically moved the entire masses of the realms wasn't even witnessed in these "planets" because "the were in different dimensions" but if this dimension is just a planet you can not feel it being yeeted away regardless of where the explosion happens.

"all of existence" can't be something limited to 3 stupid planets, death and life are universal concepts official translations say universe every time, garganta is an endlessly expanding extra dimension which contains everything including the Dangai and the kyogoku with a sun in and this alone displays how those weird (totally planets right?) Red orbs are not planets
The idea that the cosmology is given by garganta and outer space (Only limited to the range of 2-3 planets tho) overlapping and the population of said planets not witnessing the explosion's effect (and it's because they're not planets that these effects were not witnessed otherwise I guess it would be noticeable to fell the planet you're moving in being yeeted away and unlike the explosion who's supposed to happen outside of the dimensions the effect is manifested onto the supposed planet itself) is such a twisted leap in logic and I can't see how few characters potentially refering to planet would discard the tons of evidence for the opposite and most obvious interpretation

 

[Antvasima]

I will explain this but first let's apply your logic to your assumption and see how both of those are contradictory scenarios which cannot co-exist.

For a second, let us assume two universes were being pulled together and Senna's explosions caused them to reverse their direction. Okay?

For such an explosion that literally changes the course of the universe in mere seconds, the impact would be so great that multiple galaxies would have been destroyed on the spot. Not only that, the entire universe would shake. A side effect of such a process would result in tremors across the universes. That means tremors on every planet, every star, every galaxy, including Earth and SS planet. And not just baby tremors like normal earthquakes. Life-wiping destruction like the one that wiped away the dinosaurs, if not a clear cut destruction of the planet itself.

Does that happen in the movie? No. So your argument arises from an incorrect understanding of the events.

Let's understand the event correctly then.

Is the Earth and SS planet connected together through the Kyogoku?

Yes, you can literally enter Kyogoku dimension from Earth and we see Earth in SS's sky. The dimension connects the two.

Then why is the dimension not visible?

Because it is literally another dimension.

If Earth is being pulled then why isn't it hurtling through space?

Because Earth is not moving in that space. Earth and SS are dimensionally separate and they are moving across dimensions. Their movement being facilitated by another dimension called Kyogoku.

For example, in a XYZ plane, if you have a point at the coordinates (3,4,1) and it is moved along the z axis to (3,4,5), did it move in the xy plane? No. As far as the xy plane is concerned, it did not move. It moved only across the z axis. The same logic follows when we talk about moving across dimensions. Earth moving across another pocket dimension =/= Earth moving in the main universe.

Then why isn't the explosion is seen in space? Why didn't Earth get flung into space by that explosion?

Because the explosion only happened in Kyogoku and Dangai. Why would it be visible on Earth? Why would Earth get flung into space when the explosion didn't occur in the main universe? This isn't hard to understand. Alternatively you could also make an argument that the worlds returned to their stable positions by themselves as soon as Kyogoku was completely destroyed, because it's a law of nature that if no force is being applied, things always tend to go to a stable state of existence.

If you still don't understand how dimensions are supposed to work, I don't think I can explain it better atm. Maybe @DontTalkDT can enlighten you on that. But from what I can see, there is a clear lack of understanding on how pocket dimensions work, that is the source of all these weird comments that are mostly coming from new members with only 10-200 comments.

This makes sense to me as well.

 

[Eficiente]

Having gone through all the thread, I very much agree with this to the extend of a compromise not being appropriate.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Do you have the raws?

I get back to my townhouse Sunday and can try and get the raws for that.

 

[AKM sama]

I get back to my townhouse Sunday and can try and get the raws for that.

That's okay. Raws would have been important if it was explicitly referring to WotL and SS, but it is simply talking about the existence of the universe where they exist. I was just asking to make sure, but it is not a necessary requirement.

 

[Hasty12345]

I think AKM makes the most sense

 

[Swerzye29038]

Disagree FRA

 

[Malomtek]

Why are you comparing bleach to other verses. So according to you every verse gets universal rating if they have some sort of life on other planets. First of all I still don't get it even though it's clearly stated all three realms are seperate plane of existance. What is hard to understand plane and planets have different meanings.

I'm not "comparing" Bleach to anything, and my argument was that we would only have reason to believe to believe that the "world of the living" or "soul society" were universal spaces if they were ever shown to extend beyond the Earth and the immediate space around Earth.

"Planes of existence" can just mean "particularly large pocket reality" in fiction, among other things, so just saying they're "planes of existence" doesn't mean anything in particular.

Have you really read Bleach. Gremmy literally created Outer space in manga we can clearly see the galaxies and in Novels it's

The same Gremmy whose "ultimate attack" against Grimmjow Kenpachi basically turned out to be a giant rock?

Whatever "outer space" that Gremmy made "instantly" might as well be a small pocket reality with pretty wallpaper unless we see clear and actual proof that the "space" in question contains actual stars.

 

[KingJod23]

Disagree

 

[AKM sama]

Let's not talk about Gremmy. That is neither here nor there.

 

[AppleLord]

I'm not "comparing" Bleach to anything, and my argument was that we would only have reason to believe to believe that the "world of the living" or "soul society" were universal spaces if they were ever shown to extend beyond the Earth and the immediate space around Earth.

"Planes of existence" can just mean "particular large pocket reality" in fiction, among other things, so just saying they're "planes of existence" doesn't mean anything in particular.


The same Gremmy whose "ultimate attack" against Grimmjow basically turned out to be a giant rock?

Whatever "outer space" that Gremmy made "instantly" might as well be a small pocket reality with pretty wallpaper unless we see clear and actual proof that the "space" in question contains actual stars.

Nothing he made was a wallpaper. You would need proof that this is a wallpaper. We already have the light novel confirming its indeed a creation feat of outer space itself. Twice is mentioned in the novel and once in the manga.

 

[Damage3245]

Anyone discussing Gremmy on this thread is very much off-topic and such posts may end up being deleted if they derail the thread too far.

 

[YukaSama4]

The same Gremmy whose "ultimate attack" against Grimmjow basically turned out to be a giant rock?

I think you read another fan-made manga because Gremmy never fought Grimmjow, but this is completely irrelevant to the thread, focus on Senna’s feat and anything related to its context/ or to OP

 

[RoyGundam]

The same Gremmy whose "ultimate attack" against Grimmjow basically turned out to be a giant rock?

Kenpachi, right?

 

[YukaSama4]

If you all wanna talk about Gremmy go there, don't derail the thread

 

[AKM sama]

@M11UTD Disagreeing is one thing. Accusing people of being dishonest and saying so many people who agreed are stupid enough to get tricked is another. I don't need that toxicity in here.

 

[KingJod23]

I will just leave this here:

“三界 (sankai)” which is a strictly Buddhist term that means “the three realms of existence”

https://www.academia.edu/3620074/Li...nment_Buddhist_Symbolism_in_the_Manga_Bleach_

In Buddhism the three realms of existence make up the universe (Credit to Wanderez btw)

Also here is one more scan that debunks SS and WOTL being planets:

 

[Damage3245]

Also here is one more scan that debunks SS and WOTL being planets:

Huh. It's like you haven't read the thread at all if you think that's brand new.

 

[KingJod23]

Huh. It's like you haven't read the thread at all if you think that's brand new.

I have, and that scan debunks SS and WOTL being planets, it says "IF THEY COULD BE" which implies they aren't planets

 

[W0NDER3X]

The "If they could be likened to planets" quote is still there though. Whether it's Narita doing it for simplicity sake or not, in this context SS and WotL aren't planets just like how Garganta isn't outer space. Then there's literally diagram (multiple actually) basically confirming it.

I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of this whole discussion is. Are you people new to the concept of SS, WotL and HM addressing both the planets and the dimensions depending on the context?

You must've been aware, otherwise you would have Yamamoto, Azashiro and the Sokyoku (if it even has a page somewhere) at 3-A, possibly Low 2-C.

 

[AKM sama]

Symbolism is not an argument. The other scan is already addressed in the OP and has been discussed in the thread.

Yeah, I feel people aren't reading at all at this point. You've got extremely new users with 2 or 20 comments being the most vocal out of either lack of understanding or ignorance.

Agreement or leaning to agree: 8 (Myself), Ant, Medeus, Damage, LordGriffin, Matthew, Eficiente, Everything

Neutral: 2 Ogbun, Mitch

I am not sure if I missed anyone. I contacted more than a dozen staff members but many of them don't want to touch Bleach with a stick connected to another stick due to the toxicity and I can't exactly force them. I will however wait for DontTalk since he hasn't yet seen the ping.

 

[KingJod23]

Symbolism is not an argument. The other scan is already addressed in the OP and has been discussed in the thread.

Yeah, I feel people aren't reading at all at this point. You've got extremely new users with 2 or 20 comments being the most vocal out of either lack of understanding or ignorance.

Agreement or leaning to agree: 7 (Myself), Ant, Medeus, Damage, LordGriffin, Matthew, Eficiente

Neutral: 2 Ogbun, Mitch

I am not sure if I missed anyone. I contacted more than a dozen staff members but many of them don't want to touch Bleach with a stick connected to another stick due to the toxicity and I can't exactly force them. I will however wait for DontTalk since he hasn't yet seen the ping.

Why do you think Soul Society and World of the Living is planets, even tho the novel debunks that?

Tbh, a lot of scans debunks SS and WOTL being planets

 

[Damage3245]

@KingJod23; read the OP.

Your account is also suspiciously new to be honest.

It's weird how many relatively new users are attracted to this thread.

 

[AKM sama]

Stop posting the same scan again and again. Get some reading comprehension (the scan doesn't say what you are understanding). Then read the OP. It's in there.

 

[KingJod23]

@KingJod23; read the OP.

Your account is also suspiciously new to be honest.

It's weird how many relatively new users are attracted to this thread.

But I'm truly new here tho

 

[Everything12]

I agree with AKM for the reasons stated in this thread.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

The "If they could be likened to planets" quote is still there though. Whether it's Narita doing it for simplicity sake or not, in this context SS and WotL aren't planets just like how Garganta isn't outer space. Then there's literally diagram (multiple actually) basically confirming it.

I'm not entirely sure what the purpose of this whole discussion is. Are you people new to the concept of SS, WotL and HM addressing both the planets and the dimensions depending on the context?

You must've been aware, otherwise you would have Yamamoto, Azashiro and the Sokyoku (if it even has a page somewhere) at 3-A, possibly Low 2-C.

It seems the issue is more so the context during the feat in question. It's pretty clear they SS and WotL have been referred to in a planet sense but even being referred to as a dimension sense still wouldn't help because it's used as both. With that stated, the only thing the opposing side would need to do is prove that during the Senna feat, they were directly referring the SS and Living World as the universes colliding otherwise the default assumption would be the planets due to the evidence shown within the OP showing that they can and have been referred to as planets.

 

[KingJod23]

Stop posting the same scan again and again. Get some reading comprehension (the scan doesn't say what you are understanding). Then read the OP. It's in there.

I literally read the whole OP but ok here is some questions:

1. Can planets be temporal and spatial (which is space-time)?



2. Can planets be cut off from space-time?



3. If they were planets, why in the novel it says "IF THEY COULD BE LIKENED TO PLANETS"?



4. Can planets have stars and galaxies inside them?

5. Can planets be apart of the 3 realms of existence?

“三界 (sankai)” which is a strictly Buddhist term that means “the three realms of existence”

https://www.academia.edu/3620074/Li...nment_Buddhist_Symbolism_in_the_Manga_Bleach_

Credit to W0NDER3X btw for the three realms of existence part

These are my questions

 

[AKM sama]

I literally read the whole OP

Bruh

 

[KingJod23]

Bruh

?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I literally read the whole OP but ok here is some questions:

1. Can planets be temporal and spatial (which is space-time)?

Maybe, fiction is crazy like that.

2. Can planets be cut off from space-time?

Yes, they actually can. I know a character who has done this.

3. If they were planets, why in the novel it says "IF THEY COULD BE LIKENED TO PLANETS"?

This was addressed in the OP. But regardless, they've been shown to refer to them as planets as well so this argument doesn't work. You need to prove they were referring to them as universes during the Senna feat.

4. Can planets have stars and galaxies inside them?

I've seen beings and objects contain stars/galaxies within them so yes, they can.

5. Can planets be apart of the 3 realms of existence?

“三界 (sankai)” which is a strictly Buddhist term that means “the three realms of existence”

https://www.academia.edu/3620074/Li...nment_Buddhist_Symbolism_in_the_Manga_Bleach_

Credit to W0NDER3X btw for the three realms of existence part

Yes, planets can be realms of existence. One of my favorite verses uses "realm" in a planet sense on one occasion.

I'm not saying thats the case for Bleach, just that the answer is yes to most of your questions.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

during the Senna feat

This is what people aren't understanding. That's why they keep bringing stuff completely unrelated.

 

[Arceus0x]

As someone who comes from a neutral standpoint I'd say a lot of the opponents are making sense. I ain't a bleach fan but i wanted to give an outsider's perspective.

I feel like the staff should address each point more carefully and with more evidence and scans to back it up instead of just saying "read the thread". It feels like that one time a long while ago i got banned from a chat because i couldn't find the password in the rules which was hidden decently well.
If one read the thread and didn't understand the point then shouldn't you point it out? Isn't the point of making an upgrade or a downgrade thread to make full sense of something so a passerby scrolling through the bleach page would understand the reasons behind everything and not go "what in the jigoku is this supposed to mean? ".

I believe that staff should take more time responding to the opposing side instead of thread banning and angering them and antagonizing themselves. I mean currently AKM's replies are getting far less likes than the ones opposing the downgrade, this should say something about the antagonization point.

I looked at both arguments and it seems to be a matter of "what collided, the planets or the dimensions?" so what's needed now is the definitive proof of "it was only the planets that collided" or "it was the dimensions that collided"

Be more active, care more about the other people. This is vsbattles wiki not vstaff wiki, so make sure not only the staff but also the memebers are in agreement.

you keep saying that they're bringing up the same stuff but you also bring up the same stuff. Both are countering each other and both have a point. Please try harder.


now for the normal supporters who aren't staff, please make sure to only bring up things related to this feat. This will help your case a lot.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

As someone who comes from a neutral standpoint I'd say a lot of the opponents are making sense. I ain't a bleach fan but i wanted to give an outsider's perspective.

I feel like the staff should address each point more carefully and with more evidence and scans to back it up instead of just saying "read the thread". It feels like that one time a long while ago i got banned from a chat because i couldn't find the password in the rules which was hidden decently well.
If one read the thread and didn't understand the point then shouldn't you point it out? Isn't the point of making an upgrade or a downgrade thread to make full sense of something so a passerby scrolling through the bleach page would understand the reasons behind everything and not go "what in the jigoku is this supposed to mean? ".

I believe that staff should take more time responding to the opposing side instead of thread banning and angering them and antagonizing themselves. I mean currently AKM's replies are getting far less likes than the ones opposing the downgrade, this should say something about the antagonization point.

I looked at both arguments and it seems to be a matter of "what collided, the planets or the dimensions?" so what's needed now is the definitive proof of "it was only the planets that collided" or "it was the dimensions that collided"

Be more active, care more about the other people. This is vsbattles wiki not vstaff wiki, so make sure not only the staff but also the memebers are in agreement.

you keep saying that they're bringing up the same stuff but you also bring up the same stuff. Both are countering each other and both have a point. Please try harder.


now for the normal supporters who aren't staff, please make sure to only bring up things related to this feat. This will help your case a lot.

The problem is... Legitimately, everything is already in the op. People are arguing stuff that the op hasn't contested (yet).

They keep bringing Gremmy, Yhwach, the Soul King, when for the purposes of this thread, Senna is the only thing that matters. The OP proves and showcases how, indeed, SS and WotL refers to the planets in the context of Senna, while tackling the arguments from outside it that are used to defend it. Yet people keep bringing the same stuff the OP already talked about.

 

[W0NDER3X]

It seems the issue is more so the context during the feat in question. It's pretty clear they SS and WotL have been referred to in a planet sense but even being referred to as a dimension sense still wouldn't help because it's used as both. With that stated, the only thing the opposing side would need to do is prove that during the Senna feat, they were directly referring the SS and Living World as the universes colliding otherwise the default assumption would be the planets due to the evidence shown within the OP showing that they can and have been referred to as planets.

I understand that. For one I posted a screen shot of Toshiro using the word "hoshi" to make a comparison. He never even called SS or WotL "hoshi". Since I realized there's a difference between the movie translations I even asked whether the difference is between them is too distant and if they are, then the "raws" should be investigated for further support. All of this obviously got ignored. There's also this:

Basically, the Kogyoku is acting likes lens.
The same Kogyoku that grew so big that it stuck to both worlds. Where do Kogyoku appear? Inside the Garganta.

AKM is suggesting that in this context they're talking about the planets. However, if they're in fact talking about the planets, they must be occupying the Garganta. And they're clearly not occupying the Garganta.