Senna's Feat 2 (ft. Bleach Cosmology)

Luziifero · Nov 25, 2021

isn't it literally stated that a universe exists? which garganta keeps inside of it self? which yhwach was going to destroy both

AKM sama · Nov 25, 2021

Only going to reply to the relevant points not already covered to avoid circular arguments.

AnonymousBlank said:
Kisuke's diagrams never present WotL and SS as planets but as dimensions.

I don't see how that diagram presents anything more. All I can see is brown ground and blue sky. This is just proving my point more.

AnonymousBlank said:
So I guess all of the stars, the sun, the moon etc don't exist in WotL or SS? Okay then.

WotL = Earth, and SS = planet. So no. Although, stars do exist in the universe where Earth resides. And they do exist in the dimension where SS resides.

AnonymousBlank said:
If world = planet, why do they not say they are on the WotL? Why not on SS? Or HM? They don't because they are also the names of the dimensions.

Firstly, that is semantics because they refer to them as worlds. "I live on this planet" and "I live in this world". Notice how I mean the same thing but I used 'on' and 'in' because I used world in the latter statement. WotL and SS are consistently referred to as worlds. What the usage of 'world' means, can be known from the context.

AnonymousBlank said:
According to your stance, the two planets of SS and WotL got moved into the Dangai, correct?

Not completely. They were still only connected to the Kyogoku, a separate dimension. They were not completely pulled inside that dimension. They were being pulled.

Deathberry said:
isn't it literally stated that a universe exists?

This is how you know someone hasn't read the OP because that scan is already in the OP.

Torsin · Nov 25, 2021

Ok I just wanted to address a certain point since no one has touched on it yet. I'll leave the rest to the more knowledgeble members of the verse.

"If the WotL and SS could be likened to planets and the pipeline that connected them were Dangai, the void of space that surrounded those was called Garganta."

Some would argue that because it is said "if" the WotL and SS could be "likened" to planets, means they are not actually planets.
That is a faulty interpretation. This statement is used to give an easy to understand explanation of what is Garganta. The structure here is being compared to real life planets and space because they are easier to visualize and understand. WotL and SS are being compared to two real life planets which can be seen together, and Garganta is being compared to the space between them. Because it's much easier to imagine two planets, say Mercury and Venus, and the space between them, and then compare it with Earth, SS planet and Garganta, which are not in view together due to being dimensionally separate, and are therefore difficult to visualize and understand.
Nothing about it implies WotL and SS are referring to universes. This statement would hold true if they are only planets as well.

According to AKM this quote/statement would work even if in this instance it was referring to the SS and Wotl as planets. This is false.

Lets keep the quote in mind for now and first look at the three structure involved here:
1. Garganta
2. Soul Society
3. World of the living

Looking at the garganta specifically we get to know that it is described by Kisuke Urahara as a void of reishi. Yuroichi further adds to this in the CFYOW arc by saying that nothing exists in the garganta other than kogyokyo which are special reishi pocket dimensions. Now lets see how garganta has been depicted in the series so far throughtout various instances like here.
As we can see Garganta has always been depicted as a void where nothing exists and is covered in darkness when characters have e travelled through it.

Now since that's been established lets look a specific aspects of the SS and Wotl that are very important to the statement mentioned.
1. From the Soul Society shinigami are able to view stars.
2. From Hueco Mundo similar to the SS stars are viewable
3. The sun is viewable from the Wotl and stars as well.

Another point to add is that Kubo has made a clear distinction between outer space where stars and other celestial objects exist and garganta. Shingami are able to breathe and travel through the garganta as well as hollows. This is evident from the scans attached above of Ichigo and Co. travelling through the garganta. During the fight between Kenpachi and Gremmy we are given further info on how shinigami would react to being in space.

Now lets look at the statement again:

"If the WotL and SS could be likened to planets and the pipeline that connected them were Dangai, the void of space that surrounded those was called Garganta."

Now based on the above quote the garganta is what immediately surrounds the SS and the Wotl whether they be realms or planets. This matches with Yuroichi's statement that it fills the space between dimensions.

So in the scenario where we consider the two realms as planets, the garganta would immediately be surrounding them similar to outer space surrounding planets . However we do know that nothing exists in the garganta. It is just a void of reishi which Urahara goes out of his way to describe as dark. If the garganta were surrounding these planets based on the quote above then people in these planets would absolutely in no scenario be able to view stars from these planets, like at all since nothing exists in the garganta. The planets would be covered in darkness because even sunlight wouldn't be able to enter these planets. Yet we are able to see stars from these planets as seen in the scans provided before.

So the quote absolutely does not work and make sense if the realms are actual planets.

However if we consider that the SS and Wotl aren't just planets but separate dimensions which contain stars then garganta would be surrounding the entire realm which includes these stars as well and thus would make sense with the quote.

AKM sama · Nov 25, 2021

Torsin said:
So in the scenario where we consider the two realms as planets, the garganta would immediately be surrounding them similar to outer space surrounding planets . However we do know that nothing exists in the garganta. It is just a void of reishi which Urahara goes out of his way to describe as dark. If the garganta were surrounding these planets based on the quote above then people in these planets would absolutely in no scenario be able to view stars from these planets, like at all since nothing exists in the garganta. The planets would be covered in darkness because even sunlight wouldn't be able to enter these planets. Yet we are able to see stars from these planets as seen in the scans provided before.

This is you not understanding how dimensions work in fiction. Garganta is literally a different dimension. You can't see it until you open dimensional walls. For example, in DBZ, Earth and RoSaT exist together. Are people able to see RoSaT with their naked eyes? No. Why? Because RoSaT is another dimension. Other dimensions can coexist and overlap, and they won't be visible to the naked eye. Same is with Garganta. You even see people opening doors to Garganta in the sky of Earth, and in the sky of SS plenty of times, which means it exists there. Same as Buu opening a hole from RoSaT. Because it is another dimension. It exists but you can't see it normally unless the dimensional wall has been opened.

Please get more knowledge on what different pocket dimensions are and how they are supposed to work.

Luziifero · Nov 25, 2021

AKM sama said:
Only going to reply to the relevant points not already covered to avoid circular arguments.

I don't see how that diagram presents anything more. All I can see is brown ground and blue sky. This is just proving my point more.

WotL = Earth, and SS = planet. So no. Although, stars do exist in the universe where Earth resides. And they do exist in the dimension where SS resides.

Firstly, that is semantics because they refer to them as worlds. "I live on this planet" and "I live in this world". Notice how I mean the same thing but I used 'on' and 'in' because I used world in the latter statement. WotL and SS are consistently referred to as worlds. What the usage of 'world' means, can be known from the context.

Not completely. They were still only connected to the Kyogoku, a separate dimension. They were not completely pulled inside that dimension. They were being pulled.

This is how you know someone hasn't read the OP because that scan is already in the OP.

yeah but you're dismissing it on the basis of already declaring that they are planets while contradicting the already established translation

Luziifero · Nov 25, 2021

AKM sama said:
This is you not understanding how dimensions work in fiction. In DBZ, Earth and RoSaT exist together. Are people able to see RoSaT with their naked eyes? No. Why? Because RoSaT is another dimension. Other dimensions can coexist and overlap, and they won't be visible to the naked eye. Same is with Garganta. You even see people opening doors to Garganta in the sky of Earth, and in the sky of SS plenty of times, which means it exists there. Same as Buu opened a hole from RoSaT. Because it is another dimension. It exists but you can't see it normally unless the dimensional wall has been opened.

that's straight up a false equivalence fallacy

EldemadeDityjon · Nov 25, 2021

The thing is Dangai only connects WOL ans SS. HM is seperate realms which is separated by Garganta. Three realms are Seperate planes of existence. Its clearly stated in Novel. Beside if those world refered to as planets we would have seen some side effects or something when both SS and WL almost came to contact. It's pretty Clear that diagrams indicates whole dimension not just planets.

Beside Garganta is infinite size and has its own Timeflow. We already know SS and WOL time is cutted off by Dangai which has its own Timeflow.

Both realms are Seperate planes of existence. Its clearly stated and shown in manga.

Antvasima · Nov 25, 2021

AKM sama said:
Also side note here. That is my point.

1. There are many many instances where they explicitly refer to planets.
2. There are instances where we cannot determine for sure whether they are talking about the planets.
3. But there is not a single instance where they explicitly undeniably 100% refer to universes.

Even if we are going to analyze the usage on a case-by-case basis, then let's analyze the movie.

Does the movie refer to WotL and SS in context of the planets?
Yes. We have Kisuke making a direct distinction between SS planet and the dimension in which it is, calling the planet as SS and not calling the dimension anything particular. We have a statement saying "town from the WotL" which implies Earth more than it implies universe. And lastly we have visuals of planets being pulled together and SS's sky showing an image of Earth.

Does the movie refer to WotL and SS as universes.
No, there is no instance of it.

With the context we have from the movie itself, that much is enough for Senna's feat to be treated as "pushing away two planets".

And like I said in the OP:

"But sekai can also mean universe. They don't have to be planets. They could be universes."

In this instance, with the context we have from everything discussed above, there is more than sufficient information to conclude that WotL and SS are referring to planets. And even if we did not have so much evidence, we would still have defaulted to the lower interpretation. Because the higher assumption needs explicit undeniable evidence, which doesn't exist.

As for the Hueco Mundo, it is also a planet made of sand. The Sand Paradise. As for Yhwach destroying it, that depends on details of Yhwach's feat that I will avoid discussing here.

The above post makes sense to me.

Torsin · Nov 25, 2021

AKM sama said:
This is you not understanding how dimensions work in fiction. In DBZ, Earth and RoSaT exist together. Are people able to see RoSaT with their naked eyes? No. Why? Because RoSaT is another dimension. Other dimensions can coexist and overlap, and they won't be visible to the naked eye. Same is with Garganta. You even see people opening doors to Garganta in the sky of Earth, and in the sky of SS plenty of times, which means it exists there. Same as Buu opening a hole from RoSaT. Because it is another dimension. It exists but you can't see it normally unless the dimensional wall has been opened.

I am not knowledgeable on Dragon ball so I can't comment much on this but I don't think ROSAT has a statement about containing all the realms in Dragon ball and filling the space between realms.

And obviously shinigami can open portals to the garganta . They have dimensional travel. They are not cutting an opening to an invisible garganta that no one can see and feel and is one that is overlapping with the realms. There is no scenario of an invisible garganta existing and overlapping with the other realms. It could be the case for Dragon ball but absolutely not for bleach since we are directly told that the garganta fills the space between the realms and acts as sort of a boundary between realms.

YukaSama4 · Nov 25, 2021

~~I agree because of the Nelliel pfp,~~ Alright let's deal with this.

AKM sama said:
1. The second biggest misconception in VSBW Bleach: "WotL and SS refer to universes"

I have recently read the entire manga, watched the canon movie, and gleaned relevant information from the novels. And there isn't one statement that I can quote and say with 100% surety that "in this statement right here, WotL and SS are definitely referring to different universes". Not one. Zilch. In each instance, the terms WotL and SS have always been used to refer to specific planets (Earth and SS planet). The context below will make it clear.

This is a misunderstanding from you, its true that not all the statements there refer to the universe, but also saying "In each instance, the terms WotL and SS have always been used to refer to specific planets (Earth and SS planet)." is misleading.

One simple piece of evidence to debunk your point is in CFYOW.VII:

"If the world of the living and the Soul Society could be
likened to planets and the pipeline that connected them were Dangai, the void of space that surrounded those was called Garganta."

Simply enough, if WoTL and SS could be likened to planets, then the void of space that surrounded the 3 dimensions (SS, WoTL, and Dangai) is the Garganta.

You tried to twist the meaning of this sentence in your OP and I'm going to debunk that as well:

AKM sama said:
Some would argue that because it is said "if" the WotL and SS could be "likened" to planets, means they are not actually planets.
That is a faulty interpretation. This statement is used to give an easy to understand explanation of what is Garganta. The structure here is being compared to real life planets and space because they are easier to visualize and understand. WotL and SS are being compared to two real life planets which can be seen together, and Garganta is being compared to the space between them. Because it's much easier to imagine two planets, say Mercury and Venus, and the space between them, and then compare it with Earth, SS planet and Garganta, which are not in view together due to being dimensionally separate, and are therefore difficult to visualize and understand.
Nothing about it implies WotL and SS are referring to universes. This statement would hold true if they are only planets as well.

This is completely false, lmao, if what you say is true then there won't be a space in bleach because the Garganta is the equivalent of space in Bleach which we all know is false:
1) An outer space exists inside the dimension of SS.
2) Here we see stars

So yeah Garganta isn't the space of Bleach world, this is false and thus your interpretation falls, just as Garganta isn't the space, SS and WoTL aren't planets.

So:
1) SS and WoTL in general aren't planets unless the context is talking about planets or it's stated explicitly that we are talking about the planets rn.
2) Dangai doesn't connect the 2 planets, if they could be likened to planets Dangai would be connecting them as planets, but since they are not planets, Dangai doesn't connect the planets only.

Now with this the other points that you have provided to prove that SS and WoTL are always planets collapse for 2 reasons:
1) No one is really saying that it always refers to the universes.
2) CFYOW clearly says that they aren't planets, generally speaking.

Other things you have brought:

AKM sama said:
"The Valley of Screams has connected WotL and SS. There is no way a tunnel connecting two hoshi can be created naturally."

If you want to use this as proof that SS and WoTL in the context of the movie aren't planets, this is simply wrong.
CFYOW states that they aren't planets and Dangai connects them so Dangai isn't connecting planets, a clear statement from the novel >> your interpretation of Toshiro’s statement.
Toshiro doesn't contradict Narita who got his info about the Bleach universe from Kubo himself, it's the interpretation that all of you are trying to force into that statement that contradicts cannon info from the novel.

Already covered that above, it can be talking about the planet if the context refers to it, I don't think anyone said that SS and WoTL are always universes.
I mean it's the reason that Yama isn't 3-A here and everybody knows it afaik.

Conclusion:

1) SS and WoTL are generally not planets.
2) The OP only brought some statements which in that context they did mean planets, and btw some of the points he brought were false as Anonymous and others explained above.
3) If in the context of Senna’s feat someone said that SS and WoTL are planets or the context clearly implied that it, I will agree on planetary tier for Senna’s explosion, however, this isn't the case, the only valid argument there is Toshiro’s statement which really shouldn't be understood literally because I provided a piece of evidence from CFYOW that Dangai doesn't connect the 2 planets only, thus either Toshiro is wrong (which I don't think is the case because even Kisuke was there and didn't tell him to shut up) or Toshiro didn't mean it the way you all did, IMO using the clear evidence from CFYOW I can say that Toshiro only tried to use that as an example so Ichigo can understand
4) Unless the OP could debunk my point using the CFYOW statement that SS and WoTL are generally not planets, this thread shouldn't be accepted as other things he mentioned simply confirm my stance as both SS and WoTL could refer to planets when the context say so, and since nothing in the movie implies that what they meant were only the planets, actually its implied that its the whole dimensions because the context of Senna’s feat was about Dangai which connects the 2 dimensions.

W0NDER3X · Nov 25, 2021

I have only read the OP until the nowhere were SS and WotL referred to as universes. So, forgive me this was addressed. I'm a little busy, I won't have time to go through everything.

If WotL and SS could be likened to planets the pipeline that connected them would be the Dangai.

This is also confirmed visually in the manga through a diagram during TYBW

Stars are nowhere to be found, indicating that the Dangai in fact connects the realms, not just the planets.

SS and WotL as terms can refer to both the planets and the realms as far as we know, not just one of the two.

Damage3245 · Nov 25, 2021

I'm currently leaning more towards agreeing the AKM's points than the opposition right now.

EDIT: At the very least there is a lot more reasonable doubt towards it being a solid Universal feat.

AKM sama · Nov 25, 2021

YukaSama4 said:
So yeah Garganta isn't the space of Bleach world, this is false and thus your interpretation falls, just as Garganta isn't the space, SS and WoTL aren't planets.

Already covered this in earlier post just now in my response to Torsin. Garganta is a separate dimension that doesn't have to be visible. It overlaps and fills the gap between Earth, SS and HM that are all dimensionally separate. The problem with your particular line of thought is that you are not able to visualize the garganta as existing separately dimensionally. In simple words, you are not able to grasp how different dimensions work.

W0NDER3X said:
If WotL and SS could be likened to planets. So, forgive me this was addressed. I'm a little busy, I won't have time to go through everything.

Well, I can see that people aren't reading the OP and the discussion that ensued, so I will only reply to newer points that come up and ignore the repeated points to avoid circular arguments.

Nerd1435 · Nov 25, 2021

Have only read Bleach once recently and watched the movies before even reading it, so I'm very likely to have missed a lot of stuff compared to those who've read it many times over or been debating it for years.

But from what I've seen (including what's posted here), soul society and the world of living referring to Planets is a possible interpretation, it can't be entirely discarded.

Luziifero · Nov 25, 2021

AKM sama said:
Already covered this in earlier post just now in my response to Torsin. Garganta is a separate dimension that doesn't have to be visible. It overlaps and fills the gap between Earth, SS and HM that are all dimensionally separate. The problem with your particular line of thought is that you are not able to visualize the garganta as existing separately dimensionally. In simple words, you are not able to grasp how different dimensions work.

Well, I can see that people aren't reading the OP and the discussion that ensued, so I will only reply to newer points that come up and ignore the repeated points to avoid circular arguments.

ignoring arguments that directly contradict you're faulty interpretation

Luziifero · Nov 25, 2021

AKM sama · Nov 25, 2021

ignoring arguments.

Ironic. Please read the OP completely. Your latest scan was also addressed there.

W0NDER3X · Nov 25, 2021

Well, I read about everything noteworthy in the thread.

W0NDER3X said:
I have only read the OP until the nowhere were SS and WotL referred to as universes. So, forgive me this was addressed. I'm a little busy, I won't have time to go through everything.

If WotL and SS could be likened to planets the pipeline that connected them would be the Dangai.

This is also confirmed visually in the manga through a diagram during TYBW

Stars are nowhere to be found, indicating that the Dangai in fact connects the realms, not just the planets.

SS and WotL as terms can refer to both the planets and the realms as far as we know, not just one of the two.

Whether Narita tried to simplify Bleach's cosmology or not, it matters not as the diagram basically confirms his words.

There are some misconceptions in the OP that were already covered.

I'm not really certain what to discuss about the OP other than this. Everything else is already well known and established. Like I said, the terms Soul Society and World of the Living can refer to both the realms and the planets. When the author adds context to those terms he makes it painfully obvious whether he's talking about the realms or the planets.

Luziifero · Nov 25, 2021

AKM sama said:
Ironic. Please read the OP completely. Your latest scan was also addressed there.

I've read it over multiple times and the scan stating "if the world of the living and soul society COULD be likened to planets" quite literally saying that they aren't already planets

Luziifero · Nov 25, 2021

Luziifero · Nov 25, 2021

Issues with planet size realms (Bleach)

The proposed model for the cosmology: Evidence for realms being planets: French translation of unmasked refers to Wotl as “earth” It says 現世 in the raw which means Living World, not earth in this context Japanese using "gense" (living world) but the french using the word for earth Toshiro u...

docs.google.com

AKM sama · Nov 25, 2021

Deathberry said:
I've read it over multiple times and the scan stating "if the world of the living and soul society COULD be likened to planets" quite literally saying that they aren't already planets

That's not what it implies. I have already covered it. You don't need to repeat the same point.

Your latest scan is a promotional material. The actual statement from the novel in context to that is already in the OP and it uses the word sekai.

Posting outdated docs that I am already aware of since I got them from Cyber already, and to address which the thread is created in the first place, doesn't help.

Instead of spamming the thread like that just make a single comment.

Damage3245 · Nov 25, 2021

@Deathberry; nobody is saying that the "Universe" doesn't exist. Posting these scans talking about the equilibrium of the Universe or the Universe going out of balance isn't relevant.

The_Alxhemist · Nov 25, 2021

Welp. After reading through I'm more inclined to agree with AKM.

Although it should still be noted that WotL and SS can be interchangeable for realms and planets.

What I really want to ask to those defending the current rating is if there's anything stating each realms are universe sized. We know there was an old universe that got split. With that the realms each should logically be less than Universe sized each.

AKM sama · Nov 25, 2021

I will quickly make a tally before I come back to this.

Agreement or leaning to agree: (Myself), Ant, Medeus, Damage, LordGriffin, Matthew

Neutral: Ogbun, Mitch

I have contacted more staff members so I will wait for them too. And Arc, if he decides to comment.

Luziifero · Nov 25, 2021

AKM sama said:
That's not what it implies. I have already covered it. You don't need to repeat the same point.

Your latest scan is a promotional material. The actual statement from the novel in context to that is already in the OP and it uses the word sekai.

Posting outdated docs that I am already aware of since I got them from Cyber already, and to address which the thread is created in the first place, doesn't help.

Instead of spamming the thread like that just make a single comment.

in the same scan it's comparing garganta to space which it isn't. and sekai can mean universe as much as it can mean world. and my latest scan is actually the back cover of volume 6

Blallooo · Nov 25, 2021

We are at the point where it's needed to demonstrate that garganta and outer space are not the same thing,
Would be narrative wrecking to assume they are
The novels pretty much states undeniably that the realms are not planets and that garganta is not outer space and thus doesn't hold only the planets inside and this is consistent with the diagrams seen in the main series, I just can't reach the enlightenment on how the realms are supposed to be planets without actually sharing the same universe/Cosmos and so garganta and outer space being the same thing
I mean, it's so simple, soul society and WoL are dimensions (and obviously the planet where the events take place) with each Its own Cosmo, they're linked by Dangai and all of them are held inside of garganta

Luziifero · Nov 25, 2021

saying the realms are "planets" would mean that prime soul king is weaker than gremmy who can materialize outer space along with various stars and galaxies in an instant

Damage3245 · Nov 25, 2021

@Deathberry; stop posting unrelated imgur albums.

Gremmy's "galaxy feat" is not accepted on this wiki and it is derailing to this thread.

AKM sama · Nov 25, 2021

Nobody. Claimed. Garganta. Is. Outer. Space.

This is entirely irrelevant to the point.

AKM sama · Nov 25, 2021

Deathberry said:
saying the realms are "planets" would mean that prime soul king is weaker than gremmy who can materialize outer space along with various stars and galaxies in an instant

Stop spamming please. I already told you once. You can make a single comment very easily. You don't need to spam the thread with repeated comments like that. Please comply.

EDIT: That's it. You can cool off and come back once you understand what "stop spamming" means.

LephyrTheRevanchist · Nov 25, 2021

I love how people keep bringing soul king, yhwach and all this jazz when the op is talking mostly about senna's feat.

The_Alxhemist · Nov 25, 2021

Any idea where Arc or Imade is?

Feels low-key wrong to do this without the two biggest bleach supporters

AnonymousBlank · Nov 25, 2021

LephyrTheRevanchist said:
I love how people keep bringing soul king, yhwach and all this jazz when the op is talking mostly about senna's feat.

Because everything the OP brings up to say the worlds are planets are specific instances where they are actually talking about the planet. The Yhwach SK stuff being mentioned is to point out that the OP is incorrectly assuming that it always refers to the planet and never the dimensions. This is relevant to the thread since it shows that said terms can also refer to the dimensions.

The_Alxhemist said:
Any idea where Arc or Imade is?

Feels low-key wrong to do this without the two biggest bleach supporters

No idea about IMade but Arc is eating turkey rn iirc.

AKM sama · Nov 25, 2021

The_Alxhemist said:
Any idea where Arc or Imade is?

Feels low-key wrong to do this without the two biggest bleach supporters

I was in contact with Arc before this thread, and I am still in contact with him. He said that he may or may not reply, and that he is fine with tier 5 or tier 3 Bleach. He doesn't really care about Senna's feat all that much atm.

Also see here:

Arc7Kuroi said:
Last aside before I gorge myself with turkey, no one needs to worry about “waiting for Arc to comment”. If I comment you’ll see my name pop up in thread, if not you won’t.

Breakdown · Nov 25, 2021

Parrallel planets aren't a thing. Ever. Sorry.