Possible CM removal for Soul King

[SuperSonicTL]

There is a little problem i noticed here. The Soul King's profile says this:

Death Manipulation, Life Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2: Created the concepts of life and death)

After looking a bit deeper into the scans around i noticed something.



From what i get, Life is referred to as WOTL and Death is referred to as SS. Back in the primordial days, there was no boundary between them it was all a cluster. What soul king did is made a new law and separated both of these realms so a system can be established where souls can go in a circle of as Life (WOTL) and Death (SS)

Because the way life and death in Bleach works is through souls transferring from one realm to another after they "die" at either realm.



Again mentions that there was no boundary between life and death and that life was forced into stagnation.



This is also further supported by these panels where Yhwach was trying to merge life and death and how you think he was gonna do it? By simply merging all the worlds. Not to mention, Souls were also a thing back in the primordial days and thus the concept of life and death was a thing as well coz they are as "alive" as Ichibei, the five great nobles and all the pluses and Hollows.

Not that it matters much as Ichibei's CM feat still exists but I don't see a justification for this one. So in conclusion, either you give a good explanation over this or just label it as law manipulation.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Looks good to me

 

[Planck69]

Looks good at a glance.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll wait to see more responses.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

There is a little problem i noticed here. The Soul King's profile says this:


After looking a bit deeper into the scans around i noticed something.



From what i get, Life is referred to as WOTL and Death is referred to as SS. Back in the primordial days, there was no boundary between them it was all a cluster. What soul king did is made a new law and separated both of these realms so a system can be established where souls can go in a circle of as Life (WOTL) and Death (SS)

Because the way life and death in Bleach works is through souls transferring from one realm to another after they "die" at either realm.



Again mentions that there was no boundary between life and death and that life was forced into stagnation.



This is also further supported by these panels where Yhwach was trying to merge life and death and how you think he was gonna do it? By simply merging all the worlds. Not to mention, Souls were also a thing back in the primordial days and thus the concept of life and death was a thing as well coz they are as "alive" as Ichibei, the five great nobles and all the pluses and Hollows.

Not that it matters much as Ichibei's CM feat still exists but I don't see a justification for this one. So in conclusion, either you give a good explanation over this or just label it as law manipulation.

I think he would destroy the Dangai that separates the worlds and making a fusion (the worlds would go back to how they were before)

And the same happened with Soul King who created Dangai to separate the worlds

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I think he would destroy the Dangai that separates the worlds and making a fusion (the worlds would go back to how they were before)

And the same happened with Soul King who created Dangai to separate the worlds

I came to this conclusion mainly because it was Yhwach's goal from the very beginning that he wanted to return the current world into primordial state by merging all realms whatsoever. This in conclusion also means that life and death would become one as there would be no law imposed on them to go from one realm to another after they die. Also its kinda hilarious to think how the souls go from Soul Society to Living World when they die in a place that supposed to represent "death".

 

[Deceived3596]

Following, I'll go through this later as I just woke up, so I don't feel like researching/debating right now.

 

[Lynieryz]

Wouldn't this interpretation give Transduality to the Soul King?

 

[Bastolan27]

Disagree with OP for the reasons Arc gave below.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Wouldn't this interpretation give Transduality to the Soul King?

This interpretation would give anyone transduality who existed back in the primordial universe lowkey. Inb4 transduality Ichibei.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I came to this conclusion mainly because it was Yhwach's goal from the very beginning that he wanted to return the current world into primordial state by merging all realms whatsoever. This in conclusion also means that life and death would become one as there would be no law imposed on them to go from one realm to another after they die. Also its kinda hilarious to think how the souls go from Soul Society to Living World when they die in a place that supposed to represent "death".

Really, I think environmental destruction for low 2-C makes sense now.

 

[AppleLord]

Life is referred to as WOTL and Death is referred to as SS.

Any credible source to support this claim? Can you provide the original japanese kanji that states it means WoTL and SS?

As of now, Hisagi's bankai is stated to a mirror of the state of the cycle of souls in the origingal world. No life. No death. Nobody could die.
Constant instagnation. Here are the quotes from 3: pages 187 &

However, neither were near that place. Those who knew Hisagi sucked in
their breaths when they saw Hisagi’s body slashed into two separate pieces,
while the others just watched with expressions that said, “So he really
couldn’t do it.”
But two people had a different reaction.
“No...he’s not done yet.”
Kenpachi murmured that, and Kyoraku, as though he had also sensed
something, said to the speechless Nanao, “It’s okay.”
Then, in order to make sure that all that occurred next was seared into his
vision, he stared at Hikone’s back.
“So, I’m looking forward to joining you again!”
Without showing even a fragment of remorse for slashing Hisagi in two,
Hisagi whom Hikone themself had judged to be a kind person, the child once
again turned to Kenpachi. But Kenpachi remained expressionless as he
replied to Hikone, “Don’t you think you’re getting a little ahead of yourself?”
“Huh?”
Hikone then realized something strange. A black chain that they were sure
they had sawn apart was now entangled around their arm. Hikone thought for
a moment it might have been a remnant of the broken chains that had wound
around them before, but they immediately came to realize that wasn’t the
case. Hikone was yanked from behind.
“...Huh?”
When they turned around...

Hisagi, the very person who had been cut in half, was standing there
uninjured.
“What? Huh?”
Hikone marveled while Hisagi stood in front of them, wearing an
expression that was no different from earlier. Hisagi looked at them without
saying a word. Hikone had no idea what was happening and seemed slightly
surprised as they gripped their sword.
“I’m sure that I cut through you, Mr. Hisagi... Was that some sort of kido
illusion?”
“That was...”
As Hisagi began to answer, he was cleaved again, diagonally this time.
“I’m sure I felt my sword go through you that time!”
Watching Hisagi, who had simply collapsed, Hikone slashed through the
chain wrapped around them and sent it flying. After confirming that it had
fallen to the ground, the child turned to Kenpachi and Aura.

“Huh?”
They noticed that the chain was once again wrapped around them. And
when they turned around, of course, Hisagi was standing there unharmed.
Strangely, even the shihakusho Hisagi wore, which Hikone was sure they had
slashed through along with Hisagi’s body, had regenerated as though nothing
had happened.
Though Hikone thought perhaps they were seeing some illusion, when they
looked at those around them, with the exception of Kenpachi and Kyoraku
everyone seemed confused to see Hisagi there.
“Hey...you serious...”
NaNaNa Najahkoop, who had been observing Hikone, looked at Hisagi’s
spiritual pressure pattern and was even more bewildered than those around
him as he muttered to himself, “That Soul Reaper...isn’t he in rather a
precarious situation?”
“Oh...huh? That’s strange...”
Hikone, not understanding the situation they were in, simply cut through
Hisagi once again in order to be rid of the obstacle in their way, so they
could fulfill Tokinada’s orders. They cut off both of Hisagi’s arms so that he
could no longer hold his zanpaku-to. Hisagi attempted to put up some
resistance, but unable to respond to Hikone’s speed, his arms were severed
without his being able to do a thing.

Thinking this was it, Hikone looked to Hisagi in order to give the final
blow, but...
When Hikone turned their eyes to him, both of his arms had already
returned.
In the next moment, Hikone thought they heard the chain jangling, and as
though a winch were pulling them together, Hisagi’s severed sections were
reeled together. Instantly, Hisagi was returned to his original state.
“What...”
Unable to understand what they had seen, Hikone reflexively stopped
moving.
They didn’t even notice that at some point, the chains had once again
wrapped around them.

Bleach Brave souls video game interpretation of the bankai's concept of stagnation.

page 198

The bankai’s power was a chain that sealed away the flow of life and
brought the world into stagnation. By connecting everything, it forbade death,
forbade life. The black sun even bound the reishi in the atmosphere.
Because of that, it was named Kazeshini—death wind.
The cycle of the world would stop, ending all retrogression and evolution,
imprisoning it in chains.
In the circumstance where life was forced into stagnation, there was,
ironically, a world with no boundary between life and death.
It may have resembled the form of the world before the Soul Society had
been born.
“So then you and I just can’t die? What’s the point of that?”
“Naturally, this isn’t forever. If you keep cutting me, I’ll die at some
point.”
Hikone tilted their head to the side quizzically.

Here is stated Hisagi's power mirrors the original chaotic world, here: page 184

“Yo.” The shade spoke to Hisagi.
At the top of a giant tree that made him feel almost as though he were
above a forest or a mountain, a rust-colored windmill rotated creakily.
It was the usual scene.
It was a mirror of the world that reflected the cycle of life.
Death and life would repeat, creating something new to perish that would
become a new wind continually circulating in the space between the tree and
iron.
In that scene, Hisagi saw the form of Kazeshini that called out to him. Just
as when Kazeshini had appeared to him earlier, he looked like a jet-black
humanoid monster.
“Looks like you pulled something pretty reckless. Did you think you’d
win?”

The chain of fate connects death (Souls/Soul Society) to life (Living beings that receide in the WoTLD).

The words "Life" and "Death" in this scenario mean the literal concept as per later Pernida and Mimihagi were remove from the Soul King leaving him in a state of life and death. The arms of Stagnation and Advancement. page 130

At that point, the Osho cast his eyes down and returned to his telling.
“However, the Tsunayashiro ancestor doubted even the Reio’s nonresistance.
He was most frightened of the Reio using his powers to escape the seal and
destroy them. And so, without letting the Reio live or die, they tossed him
into a contradictory spiral of simultaneous, continuous life and death. They
even tore away his right and left arms that ruled ‘stillness’ and
‘advancement.’”
The new soldiers held their breath while the members of Squad Zero, not
including the Osho, remained silent, each with a unique expression on their
face.

 

[Popbum]

Wouldn't this interpretation give Transduality to the Soul King?

It would also give it hisagi via his bankai since it mirrors the chaotic world.

 

[AppleLord]

I came to this conclusion mainly because it was Yhwach's goal from the very beginning that he wanted to return the current world into primordial state by merging all realms whatsoever. This in conclusion also means that life and death would become one as there would be no law imposed on them to go from one realm to another after they die. Also its kinda hilarious to think how the souls go from Soul Society to Living World when they die in a place that supposed to represent "death".

It represents "death" because those souls particles are made of reishi matter and humans on earth have human bodies made of reishi matter which have reishi souls inside of them. This goes completly against Yhwach's plan of his fear of death.

 

[Bastolan27]

I came to this conclusion mainly because it was Yhwach's goal from the very beginning that he wanted to return the current world into primordial state by merging all realms whatsoever. This in conclusion also means that life and death would become one as there would be no law imposed on them to go from one realm to another after they die. Also its kinda hilarious to think how the souls go from Soul Society to Living World when they die in a place that supposed to represent "death".

Buddhist cycle of reincarnation—ever heard of it?

 

[Nierre]

i looooove using Buddhism to beef up my favorite verses

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

i looooove using Buddhism to beef up my favorite verses

Lol

 

[Bastolan27]

i looooove using Buddhism to beef up my favorite verses

I'm an expert in Buddhism. Believe me when I say Bleach is outer 100% facts, no cap.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Any credible source to support this claim? Can you provide the original japanese kanji that states it means WoTL and SS?

I don't really need to given anyone who knew the series would know that the "boundary" and "border" would be referring to Dangai which is stated to act as a boundary between Living World and Soul Society. Soo the fact that instead of stating the names of the individual realm they put as Life and Death would very mean that Life represents Living World and Death represents Soul Society.

As of now, Hisagi's bankai is stated to a mirror of the state of the cycle of souls in the origingal world. No life. No death. Nobody could die.
Constant instagnation. Here are the quotes from 3: pages 187 &

However, neither were near that place. Those who knew Hisagi sucked in
their breaths when they saw Hisagi’s body slashed into two separate pieces,
while the others just watched with expressions that said, “So he really
couldn’t do it.”
But two people had a different reaction.
“No...he’s not done yet.”
Kenpachi murmured that, and Kyoraku, as though he had also sensed
something, said to the speechless Nanao, “It’s okay.”
Then, in order to make sure that all that occurred next was seared into his
vision, he stared at Hikone’s back.
“So, I’m looking forward to joining you again!”
Without showing even a fragment of remorse for slashing Hisagi in two,
Hisagi whom Hikone themself had judged to be a kind person, the child once
again turned to Kenpachi. But Kenpachi remained expressionless as he
replied to Hikone, “Don’t you think you’re getting a little ahead of yourself?”
“Huh?”
Hikone then realized something strange. A black chain that they were sure
they had sawn apart was now entangled around their arm. Hikone thought for
a moment it might have been a remnant of the broken chains that had wound
around them before, but they immediately came to realize that wasn’t the
case. Hikone was yanked from behind.
“...Huh?”
When they turned around...

Hisagi, the very person who had been cut in half, was standing there
uninjured.
“What? Huh?”
Hikone marveled while Hisagi stood in front of them, wearing an
expression that was no different from earlier. Hisagi looked at them without
saying a word. Hikone had no idea what was happening and seemed slightly
surprised as they gripped their sword.
“I’m sure that I cut through you, Mr. Hisagi... Was that some sort of kido
illusion?”
“That was...”
As Hisagi began to answer, he was cleaved again, diagonally this time.
“I’m sure I felt my sword go through you that time!”
Watching Hisagi, who had simply collapsed, Hikone slashed through the
chain wrapped around them and sent it flying. After confirming that it had
fallen to the ground, the child turned to Kenpachi and Aura.

“Huh?”
They noticed that the chain was once again wrapped around them. And
when they turned around, of course, Hisagi was standing there unharmed.
Strangely, even the shihakusho Hisagi wore, which Hikone was sure they had
slashed through along with Hisagi’s body, had regenerated as though nothing
had happened.
Though Hikone thought perhaps they were seeing some illusion, when they
looked at those around them, with the exception of Kenpachi and Kyoraku
everyone seemed confused to see Hisagi there.
“Hey...you serious...”
NaNaNa Najahkoop, who had been observing Hikone, looked at Hisagi’s
spiritual pressure pattern and was even more bewildered than those around
him as he muttered to himself, “That Soul Reaper...isn’t he in rather a
precarious situation?”
“Oh...huh? That’s strange...”
Hikone, not understanding the situation they were in, simply cut through
Hisagi once again in order to be rid of the obstacle in their way, so they
could fulfill Tokinada’s orders. They cut off both of Hisagi’s arms so that he
could no longer hold his zanpaku-to. Hisagi attempted to put up some
resistance, but unable to respond to Hikone’s speed, his arms were severed
without his being able to do a thing.

Thinking this was it, Hikone looked to Hisagi in order to give the final
blow, but...
When Hikone turned their eyes to him, both of his arms had already
returned.
In the next moment, Hikone thought they heard the chain jangling, and as
though a winch were pulling them together, Hisagi’s severed sections were
reeled together. Instantly, Hisagi was returned to his original state.
“What...”
Unable to understand what they had seen, Hikone reflexively stopped
moving.
They didn’t even notice that at some point, the chains had once again
wrapped around them.

Bleach Brave souls video game interpretation of the bankai's concept of stagnation.

That is all nice but... Where it will answer my question may i ask? I think you are not getting it, this just supports the idea that Hisagi's bankai represents the state of stagnation where universe wasn't progressing. Life and Death was always a thing back then as well just in a mixed state. Hisagi's thing would be akin to how the state of the universe would be when the laws that represent life and death weren't there. That doesn't mean anyone in that realm would get cut in half and would be healed instantly like you are implying it to be. It's just a symbolical reference not taken to be very literal.

Here is stated Hisagi's power mirrors the original chaotic world, here: page 184

“Yo.” The shade spoke to Hisagi.
At the top of a giant tree that made him feel almost as though he were
above a forest or a mountain, a rust-colored windmill rotated creakily.
It was the usual scene.
It was a mirror of the world that reflected the cycle of life.
Death and life would repeat, creating something new to perish that would
become a new wind continually circulating in the space between the tree and
iron.
In that scene, Hisagi saw the form of Kazeshini that called out to him. Just
as when Kazeshini had appeared to him earlier, he looked like a jet-black
humanoid monster.
“Looks like you pulled something pretty reckless. Did you think you’d
win?”

"It was a mirror of the world that reflected the cycle of life. Death and life would repeat, creating something new to perish that would become a new wind continually circulating in the space between the tree and iron."

Your same scan even implies that life and death was a thing back then so may i ask where exactly is it stated that Soul king created the concept of Life and Death again?

The chain of fate connects death (Souls/Soul Society) to life (Living beings that receide in the WoTLD).

I still don't see where any of it correlates to the topic. The manga scans you provided has nothing to do with what i'm arguing over here. What the breaking of Chains of Fate really does is to turn you into hollow which leads you into technically dying. What's new about it?

The words "Life" and "Death" in this scenario mean the literal concept as per later Pernida and Mimihagi were remove from the Soul King leaving him in a state of life and death. The arms of Stagnation and Advancement. page 130

At that point, the Osho cast his eyes down and returned to his telling.
“However, the Tsunayashiro ancestor doubted even the Reio’s nonresistance.
He was most frightened of the Reio using his powers to escape the seal and
destroy them. And so, without letting the Reio live or die, they tossed him
into a contradictory spiral of simultaneous, continuous life and death. They
even tore away his right and left arms that ruled ‘stillness’ and
‘advancement.’”
The new soldiers held their breath while the members of Squad Zero, not
including the Osho, remained silent, each with a unique expression on their
face.

Okay and what does that gonna prove? That just means Soul King was left in a state of neither being death or alive, like in a state of coma, a battery of a sort.

As for the arms, that would just mean that Soul King's causality system is in-between state of stillness and advancement which would only give him acausality. Where this would help in CM?

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I honestly just want a more straight forward and simpler explanation instead of all these mumbo jumbos. Hence i will wait for Arc.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

I'm an expert in Buddhism. Believe me when I say Bleach is outer 100% facts, no cap.

You could make Bleach outer and Goku would still solo the verse fr fr

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

You could make Bleach outer and Goku would still solo the verse fr fr

I agree

 

[AppleLord]

I don't really need to given anyone who knew the series would know that the "boundary" and "border" would be referring to Dangai which is stated to act as a boundary between Living World and Soul Society. Soo the fact that instead of stating the names of the individual realm they put as Life and Death would very mean that Life represents Living World and Death represents Soul Society.





That is all nice but... Where it will answer my question may i ask? I think you are not getting it, this just supports the idea that Hisagi's bankai represents the state of stagnation where universe wasn't progressing. Life and Death was always a thing back then as well just in a mixed state. Hisagi's thing would be akin to how the state of the universe would be when the laws that represent life and death weren't there. That doesn't mean anyone in that realm would get cut in half and would be healed instantly like you are implying it to be. It's just a symbolical reference not taken to be very literal.


"It was a mirror of the world that reflected the cycle of life. Death and life would repeat, creating something new to perish that would become a new wind continually circulating in the space between the tree and iron."

Your same scan even implies that life and death was a thing back then so may i ask where exactly is it stated that Soul king created the concept of Life and Death again?



I still don't see where any of it correlates to the topic. The manga scans you provided has nothing to do with what i'm arguing over here. What the breaking of Chains of Fate really does is to turn you into hollow which leads you into technically dying. What's new about it?



Okay and what does that gonna prove? That just means Soul King was left in a state of neither being death or alive, like in a state of coma, a battery of a sort.

As for the arms, that would just mean that Soul King's causality system is in-between state of stillness and advancement which would only give him acausality. Where this would help in CM?

These are valid comments based on your viewpoint of what you think the words "Life" and "Death" mean in this context. However, there is still a lack of evidence on your part to claim that those words are referring to "SS" and "WoTL" in context. The Dangai is already accepted as something the Soul King created, and what Yhwach wanted to destroy. In the same way, Reio created Hueco Mundo with the ashes of Menos Grande. You have not answer the question I brough previously that contradicts your debate in this thread. If Life and Death existed together and Reio did not created the concepts of Life and Death in this universe. Can you answer how was that going to help Yhwach and his "Fear" of "Death" he wanted to make everyone immortal. By removing the "Dangai" and not the concepts of "Life" and "Death" the end result would be everyone on "WoTL" likely dying instantly and arriving in Soul Society and that would be the only "realm" of existence. Souls can exist on WoTL with living beings together. But living beings from the "WoTL" cannot enter or exist in "SS" without turning their bodies into reishi. Is this your argument? How would that had help Yhwach? How would that have help him escape "Fear" and "Death" when he already exist in Soul Society as he died once before.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Neutral on this, I'll wait for more experts to comment personally.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

I agree with apllelord

But my opinion may change depending on future discussions

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Disagree for @AppleLord reasons.

 

[Mamaroza]

I gree with AppleLord

 

[Zeinx1]

You could make Bleach outer and Goku would still solo the verse fr fr

W Goku Solos

 

[SuperSonicTL]

These are valid comments based on your viewpoint of what you think the words "Life" and "Death" mean in this context. However, there is still a lack of evidence on your part to claim that those words are referring to "SS" and "WoTL" in context. The Dangai is already accepted as something the Soul King created, and what Yhwach wanted to destroy. In the same way, Reio created Hueco Mundo with the ashes of Menos Grande. You have not answer the question I brough previously that contradicts your debate in this thread. If Life and Death existed together and Reio did not created the concepts of Life and Death in this universe. Can you answer how was that going to help Yhwach and his "Fear" of "Death" he wanted to make everyone immortal. By removing the "Dangai" and not the concepts of "Life" and "Death" the end result would be everyone on "WoTL" likely dying instantly and arriving in Soul Society and that would be the only "realm" of existence. Souls can exist on WoTL with living beings together. But living beings from the "WoTL" cannot enter or exist in "SS" without turning their bodies into reishi. Is this your argument? How would that had help Yhwach? How would that have help him escape "Fear" and "Death" when he already exist in Soul Society as he died once before.

Actually i want you to ask this question to yourself... How would you think Yhwach was going to merge life and death by just simply removing the boundary that connects them?

You and everyone who read the series know very well that Yhwach's original intent wasn't to absorb Soul King's power and merge Life and Death. He wanted to do it from a technical standpoint via killing the Soul King which already these scans of mine i posted in the thread supports:



The finale of Bleach came down to Yhwach having an desperation attempt to merge all the worlds with his raw power by breaking the boundaries (Garganta and Dangai) between them.



Soo with this all. From my point of view, there simply exists a law between each world that separates life and death. The old world just had souls with Kishi and Reishi mixed together and their death technically wouldn't be a thing since they will keep on existing in the state they are when the system of regulating souls and turning them from Kishi to Reishi and vice versa wasn't a thing.

 

[Killerdrone123]

You could make Bleach outer and Goku would still solo the verse fr fr

 

[TheGod]

agreed, looks good and clear cut.

 

[AppleLord]

Actually i want you to ask this question to yourself... How would you think Yhwach was going to merge life and death by just simply removing the boundary that connects them?

You didn't answer my question. Is not up to me to answer my own questions or do the research for you. Debates 101.

You and everyone who read the series know very well that Yhwach's original intent wasn't to absorb Soul King's power and merge Life and Death. He wanted to do it from a technical standpoint via killing the Soul King which already these scans of mine i posted in the thread supports:

Yes, this is already acceptable in this website.

The finale of Bleach came down to Yhwach having an desperation attempt to merge all the worlds with his raw power by breaking the boundaries (Garganta and Dangai) between them.

We also know this would happened and is accepted.

Soo with this all. From my point of view, there simply exists a law between each world that separates life and death.

Here we go to my original question - Any credible source to support this claim? Can you provide the original japanese kanji that states "Life" and "Death" means WoTL and SS? All we have is an opinion from you, so far.

The old world just had souls with Kishi and Reishi mixed together and their death technically wouldn't be a thing since they will keep on existing in the state they are when the system of regulating souls and turning them from Kishi to Reishi and vice versa wasn't a thing.

There was a sort of "Death" (not really) in that original world as the Menos Grande were created by devouring humans, humans made of reishi, the were no souls, and the Soul King came into existence as "Life" was born, not the WoTL, that would come later in the story. And to prevent the stagnation of the chaotic world the concept of "Death" did not exist, yet, humans were eaten by Hollows becoming one different being the Menos Grande, and Hollows didn't "die" they were transfigured into "Sands of reishi" which is just spiritual matter.

“In that age, in all of creation many things were ambiguous. There was no
such thing as life or death, and without progress, there was no retreat. While
it swayed to and fro, you see, this was a world where one could only wait
for all things to chill over the course of ten thousand or even one hundred
million years. Even becoming a Hollow was part of the circulation of
reishi.” Speaking in a matter-of-fact manner, the Osho recalled the world
prior to the birth of Hueco Mundo or the world of the living.
“Eventually, however, the Hollows began to eat humans. At that point the
circulation stopped. Had things gone on as they were, all the konpaku would
have been reduced to one gigantic Menos and the entire world would have
come to a halt. But how curious it was—as though the world were rejecting
that outcome, suddenly a life was born. A life that could destroy the
Hollows, turning them to reishi sand, and once again allowing the world to
circulate.”
“Was that...the first Soul King?” a new soldier unintentionally murmured.
As though believing they had been impertinent, the new soldier rushed to
cover their own mouth, but the Osho paid it no mind and nodded at those
words.
“Indeed. Others such as myself, with special abilities, had appeared, but
the Reio was exceptional. It may even be said he had a power that was close
to being almighty, omniscient and omnipotent.”
Almost nostalgically, the Osho recalled the form of the past Reio who had
long since disappeared from this throne.
“However, it was not as though the stagnation of the world had been
averted by the simple act of destroying the Hollows. The Reio continued in
that way to protect the world that would have slowly melted into chaos.”

The current existence of the "Soul King" is how the old world worked. page 130 - vol 3

At that point, the Osho cast his eyes down and returned to his telling.
“However, the Tsunayashiro ancestor doubted even the Reio’s nonresistance.
He was most frightened of the Reio using his powers to escape the seal and
destroy them. And so, without letting the Reio live or die, they tossed him
into a contradictory spiral of simultaneous, continuous life and death. They
even tore away his right and left arms that ruled ‘stillness’ and
‘advancement.’”

In the chaotic world, everyone was in the same state as Hisagi's bankai and Soul King's state after been sealed. The whole, "It's just a symbolical reference not taken to be very literal." is wrong here. It was literal.

Now you have not answer the most important question brought up that you have not answer that contradicts your debate in this thread. If Life and Death existed together and Reio did not created the concepts of Life and Death in this universe. Can you answer how would removing the "Garganta/Dangai" had made Yhwach "exist out of the concepts of "Life" and "Death" in this new world? He exist already bond by those concepts. His plan was to remove them.

I'm not 100% convince with the interpretation you posted yet. But we may get somewhere if you provide some answers to that interpretation of the events.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Now you have not answer the most important question brought up that you have not answer that contradicts your debate in this thread. If Life and Death existed together and Reio did not created the concepts of Life and Death in this universe. Can you answer how would removing the "Garganta/Dangai" had made Yhwach "exist out of the concepts of "Life" and "Death" in this new world? He exist already bond by those concepts. His plan was to remove them.

I'm not 100% convince with the interpretation you posted yet. But we may get somewhere if you provide some answers to that interpretation of the events.

Yhwach was probably delusional. I don't blame him, with jugram constantly riding his meat it makes sense. Bro was on cloud 9

 

[SuperSonicTL]

You didn't answer my question. Is not up to me to answer my own questions or do the research for you. Debates 101.

I was gonna point that out till you brought it yourself soo...

Yes, this is already acceptable in this website.

Good next.

We also know this would happened and is accepted.

Good next.

Here we go to my original question - Any credible source to support this claim? Can you provide the original japanese kanji that states "Life" and "Death" means WoTL and SS? All we have is an opinion from you, so far.

Why it matters again? You think Life and Death can't be used interchangeably with Living World and Soul Society that are supposed to represent these two aspects? When it is pretty clear that the novel scans implied that there is no boundary between Life and Death which could only mean Dangai that acts as a boundary between Heaven and Earth?

The scan explicitly states that there is no border between Life and Death. What do you think that Border gonna be? The fact that nearly all of the scan only says that there is no border/boundary between life and death instead of saying there is no concept of life and death only proves that Life and Death as a concept was a thing long ago just in a messy state.

There was a sort of "Death" (not really) in that original world as the Menos Grande were created by devouring humans, humans made of reishi, the were no souls, and the Soul King came into existence as "Life" was born, not the WoTL, that would come later in the story. And to prevent the stagnation of the chaotic world the concept of "Death" did not exist, yet, humans were eaten by Hollows becoming one different being the Menos Grande, and Hollows didn't "die" they were transfigured into "Sands of reishi" which is just spiritual matter.

“In that age, in all of creation many things were ambiguous. There was no
such thing as life or death, and without progress, there was no retreat. While
it swayed to and fro, you see, this was a world where one could only wait
for all things to chill over the course of ten thousand or even one hundred
million years. Even becoming a Hollow was part of the circulation of
reishi.” Speaking in a matter-of-fact manner, the Osho recalled the world
prior to the birth of Hueco Mundo or the world of the living.
“Eventually, however, the Hollows began to eat humans. At that point the
circulation stopped. Had things gone on as they were, all the konpaku would
have been reduced to one gigantic Menos and the entire world would have
come to a halt. But how curious it was—as though the world were rejecting
that outcome, suddenly a life was born. A life that could destroy the
Hollows, turning them to reishi sand, and once again allowing the world to
circulate.”
“Was that...the first Soul King?” a new soldier unintentionally murmured.
As though believing they had been impertinent, the new soldier rushed to
cover their own mouth, but the Osho paid it no mind and nodded at those
words.
“Indeed. Others such as myself, with special abilities, had appeared, but
the Reio was exceptional. It may even be said he had a power that was close
to being almighty, omniscient and omnipotent.”
Almost nostalgically, the Osho recalled the form of the past Reio who had
long since disappeared from this throne.
“However, it was not as though the stagnation of the world had been
averted by the simple act of destroying the Hollows. The Reio continued in
that way to protect the world that would have slowly melted into chaos.”

Having no life and no death = Not having the concept of Life and Death given the contradictions and interpretations behind how life and death works in Bleach and how it was in ambiguous state according to Yhwach who wanted to merge these two ideas together and disrupt the system by merging all three worlds.

Also if you look at the same scan really closely, you notice that Soul King is dubbed as a "Life" which is like shooting yourself in the foot in the current debate here no offense. If Life wasn't supposed to be a thing in the primordial world then i see no reason why it was supposed to be stated here whatsoever. This only backs my claim up that Life and Death was always a thing just in a uncontrollable state.

The current existence of the "Soul King" is how the old world worked. page 130 - vol 3

At that point, the Osho cast his eyes down and returned to his telling.
“However, the Tsunayashiro ancestor doubted even the Reio’s nonresistance.
He was most frightened of the Reio using his powers to escape the seal and
destroy them. And so, without letting the Reio live or die, they tossed him
into a contradictory spiral of simultaneous, continuous life and death. They
even tore away his right and left arms that ruled ‘stillness’ and
‘advancement.’”

Nothing here implies that Soul King represents how old world worked sorry. Its only special situation to him.

Also here is a funny thing to consider... You, yet again, used the scan where it was implied that Soul King was bounded by the concept of Life and Death and you are talking about someone who supposedly created the concept of Life and Death. Think about it for a moment.

In the chaotic world, everyone was in the same state as Hisagi's bankai and Soul King's state after been sealed. The whole, "It's just a symbolical reference not taken to be very literal." is wrong here. It was literal.

Hisagi's situation is something i could somewhat understand given the situation surrounding him even if the interpretation is vague but Soul King is nothing like what you are believing it to be after looking at those scans you posted above.

Now you have not answer the most important question brought up that you have not answer that contradicts your debate in this thread. If Life and Death existed together and Reio did not created the concepts of Life and Death in this universe. Can you answer how would removing the "Garganta/Dangai" had made Yhwach "exist out of the concepts of "Life" and "Death" in this new world? He exist already bond by those concepts. His plan was to remove them.

I'm not 100% convince with the interpretation you posted yet. But we may get somewhere if you provide some answers to that interpretation of the events.

Okay then listen, Yhwach was bounded to the cycle of life and death nonetheless. But his talk of getting out of it was not from a conceptual way but rather from a technical way. He can't exist outside of the literal concept of Life and Death but he can destroy the system that forces a soul to go into the cycle of life and death.

In the new anime monologue between Yhwach and Ichibei. Yhwach was disgusted by the way how cycle of life and death works and how people in his eyes suffer because of it but what really drove him over the edge was when he find out that his father is literally the reason why such a world exists and went on a crusade on Soul Society to finish the system once and for all. He never had the goal of absorbing Soul King he just wanted to return the current world into the original state without using any form of mystical power that allows him to override the concept of life and death.

Its that simple.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Just to make sure, i have nothing against Bleach. It's one of my favorite series and i want to do something about it as well. But something like this that can't be used in a debate without having continuous questions and interpretations going around shouldn't be allowed if i'm being real here. I will let y'all decide what to do with it.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

As far as I’m aware people couldn’t die back then. He introduces the concept of life and death thus the world was no longer stagnant. Then came the separation of the original world using his power. Can’t have the living, dead, and hollows together again.

“In that age, in all of creation many things were ambiguous. There was no such thing as life or death, and without progress, there was no retreat. While it swayed to and fro, you see, this was a world where one could only wait for all things to chill over the course of ten thousand or even one hundred million years.”

Excerpt From
Bleach: Can’t Fear Your Own World, Vol. 3
Tite Kubo, Ryohgo Narita

https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewBook?id=0

This material may be protected by copyright.

This is pretty straight forward.

 

[AppleLord]

I was gonna point that out till you brought it yourself soo...

Don't let me stop you.

Why it matters again? You think Life and Death can't be used interchangeably with Living World and Soul Society that are supposed to represent these two aspects?

Occam razor. If the original Japanese kanji for "Life" and "Death" in this scenario match the kanji letters for "WoTL" and "SS" then you're correct and the thread can go on to the next step which would be the implementation of such change. If those kanji match their original meaning then your interpretation is wrong regardless of the context in English as this was an original Japanese work.

When it is pretty clear that the novel scans implied that there is no boundary between Life and Death which could only mean Dangai that acts as a boundary between Heaven and Earth?

Yet, again this word "boundary" has to be confirmed once more in the Japanese kanji. We had mistakes like this in the past, one more recent would be the interpretation that the worlds were created by the Soul King's "Almighty" when it in fact it meant literal "Omnipotence" as in power. But in context of the story it was used as a being that could be called almost Omnipotent, not truly one. As the kanji for Almighty means both "Omnipotence and Omniscience" and that was sorted out.

The scan explicitly states that there is no border between Life and Death. What do you think that Border gonna be? The fact that nearly all of the scan only says that there is no border/boundary between life and death instead of saying there is no concept of life and death only proves that Life and Death as a concept was a thing long ago just in a messy state.

Yes, we know the border is the Garganta. Dangai is a dimension that connects the worlds like a bridge. Garganta would be the "outerspace" where all the dimensions reside if they were link to "planets" in a physical sense. This is already accepted. How does this link to your interpretation? I don't see the connection.

Having no life and no death = Not having the concept of Life and Death given the contradictions and interpretations behind how life and death works in Bleach and how it was in ambiguous state according to Yhwach who wanted to merge these two ideas together and disrupt the system by merging all three worlds.

I have not seeing any contradictions. Feel free to point them out.

Also if you look at the same scan really closely, you notice that Soul King is dubbed as a "Life" which is like shooting yourself in the foot in the current debate here no offense. If Life wasn't supposed to be a thing in the primordial world then i see no reason why it was supposed to be stated here whatsoever. This only backs my claim up that Life and Death was always a thing just in a uncontrollable state.

The only reason it was brought up was in the novel, the instant the Soul King came into existence born from the chaotic world itself. The first "life" was this being who brough the creation of this concept. Remmenber the five noble houses use his power to create such a world and the concepts. Where do they got such an idea for the concept of life and death? From the very first being that contradicted both life and death.

Nothing here implies that Soul King represents how old world worked sorry. Its only special situation to him.

Also here is a funny thing to consider... You, yet again, used the scan where it was implied that Soul King was bounded by the concept of Life and Death and you are talking about someone who supposedly created the concept of Life and Death. Think about it for a moment.

Ichibei was present when the original Soul King came into existence rejected by the world itself. And Ichibei himself sealed Yhwach as the new Soul King in the same state. Ichibei is older than the Soul King.

Hisagi's situation is something i could somewhat understand given the situation surrounding him even if the interpretation is vague but Soul King is nothing like what you are believing it to be after looking at those scans you posted above.

I understand.

Okay then listen, Yhwach was bounded to the cycle of life and death nonetheless. But his talk of getting out of it was not from a conceptual way but rather from a technical way. He can't exist outside of the literal concept of Life and Death but he can destroy the system that forces a soul to go into the cycle of life and death.

That would still not helped him escape the "Fear" of "Death" in any outcome. His goal was from fear of death.

In the new anime monologue between Yhwach and Ichibei. Yhwach was disgusted by the way how cycle of life and death works and how people in his eyes suffer because of it but what really drove him over the edge was when he find out that his father is literally the reason why such a world exists and went on a crusade on Soul Society to finish the system once and for all.

The reason was not his father. Yhwach cares nothing about his father from what has been shown so far. Yhwach wanted a change in the cycle of death because to stay alive required consuming souls and everytime a soul returned to him brought pain, anger, agony, and all the memories and emotions of that person's life. He lived through all their lives and he was stuck in this permanent cycle that was curse either way he saw it.

He never had the goal of absorbing Soul King he just wanted to return the current world into the original state without using any form of mystical power that allows him to override the concept of life and death.

Its that simple.

Yes, we know this. At first, Yhwach wanted to destroy everything. But at the last second changed his mind, to become the new God and create a new system based on the old one. But remember Yhwach did not exist back in the day. Yhwach did not know how the old world function. He decided to take control of the wheel instead of facing it head on. Why? Because of "Fear" the fear of the unknown. The "Fear" of "Death" and rebirth.

I see your point view and I would like to agree with you if enough evidence is brought up that will match your claim of the words "Life" and "Death" having the same kanji as "World of the Living" and "Soul Society" or at least a different kanji that is not the literal one for "Life" and "Death" in this case.

I wish you good luck! This will be my last post about this unless something new is brought up.

 

[Popbum]

As far as I’m aware people couldn’t die back then. He introduces the concept of life and death thus the world was no longer stagnant. Then came the separation of the original world using his power. Can’t have the living, dead, and hollows together again.


This is pretty straight forward.

I mean hisagi’s bank is said to mirror the chaotic world and with they way its described life and death did exist but they weren’t separate so both were stagnant.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I mean hisagi’s bank is said to mirror the chaotic world and with they way its described life and death did exist but they weren’t separate so both were stagnant.

hisagi nor anyone on his bankai can die.

 

[AppleLord]

Soul King's craft, where life and death align,
A tale unfolded, creation divine.
Debate may swirl, yet truth is clear,
In the realm of the King, concepts appear.