Possible CM removal for Soul King

[Reio35]

I honestly just want a more straight forward and simpler explanation instead of all these mumbo jumbos. Hence i will wait for Arc.

I don't really need to given anyone who knew the series would know that the "boundary" and "border" would be referring to Dangai which is stated to act as a boundary between Living World and Soul Society. Soo the fact that instead of stating the names of the individual realm they put as Life and Death would very mean that Life represents Living World and Death represents Soul Society.





That is all nice but... Where it will answer my question may i ask? I think you are not getting it, this just supports the idea that Hisagi's bankai represents the state of stagnation where universe wasn't progressing. Life and Death was always a thing back then as well just in a mixed state. Hisagi's thing would be akin to how the state of the universe would be when the laws that represent life and death weren't there. That doesn't mean anyone in that realm would get cut in half and would be healed instantly like you are implying it to be. It's just a symbolical reference not taken to be very literal.


"It was a mirror of the world that reflected the cycle of life. Death and life would repeat, creating something new to perish that would become a new wind continually circulating in the space between the tree and iron."

Your same scan even implies that life and death was a thing back then so may i ask where exactly is it stated that Soul king created the concept of Life and Death again?

What apple posted is completely wrong that's talking about his shikai not bankai. His bankai is stated to forbade death and life. It's also stated you can't die and your immortal and this doesn't only apply to people it applies to everything.

I still don't see where any of it correlates to the topic. The manga scans you provided has nothing to do with what i'm arguing over here. What the breaking of Chains of Fate really does is to turn you into hollow which leads you into technically dying. What's new about it?



Okay and what does that gonna prove? That just means Soul King was left in a state of neither being death or alive, like in a state of coma, a battery of a sort.

As for the arms, that would just mean that Soul King's causality system is in-between state of stillness and advancement which would only give him acausality. Where this would help in CM?

Life and death use to be 1 concept. From this higher concept souk Kong made new concepts which were life and death

 

[AppleLord]

What apple posted is completely wrong that's talking about his shikai not bankai. His bankai is stated to forbade death and life. It's also stated you can't die and your immortal and this doesn't only apply to people it applies to everything.

Life and death use to be 1 concept. From this higher concept souk Kong made new concepts which were life and death

You could have specify that I mix the bankai with his new true Shikai abilities. You made it sound like everything I said was wrong which would need to be rebutted at any case.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Looks good at a glance.

I'll wait to see more responses.

Neutral on this, I'll wait for more experts to comment personally.

To my most humble and knowledgeable staff members here, I have a little question here given i'm kinda new on the wiki and its standards before i proceed on the above posts...

Is it possible for living creatures to exist in a place where the concept of Life and Death isn't a thing? Coz we know many entities like Ichibei, Five Great Nobles, Pluses, Hollows e.t.c existed in that same primordial world where Life wasn't supposed to be a thing so that have me questioning the situation of how we even treat the concept of Life and Death in this case scenario?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

To my most humble and knowledgeable staff members here, I have a little question here given i'm kinda new on the wiki and its standards before i proceed on the above posts...

Is it possible for living creatures to exist in a place where the concept of Life and Death isn't a thing? Coz we know many entities like Ichibei, Five Great Nobles, Pluses, Hollows e.t.c existed in that same primordial world where Life wasn't supposed to be a thing so that have me questioning the situation of how we even treat the concept of Life and Death in this case scenario?

Characters can even exist in non existent space. It's not uncommon. This is fiction.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Characters can even exist in non existent space. It's not uncommon. This is fiction.

Yeah but these are normal creatures, not some cosmic entities whatsoever so that has me concern for now.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Yeah but these are normal creatures, not some cosmic entities whatsoever so that has me concern for now.

Normal creatures? What’s normal about dudes over a million years using soul magic lol

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Yeah but these are normal creatures, not some cosmic entities whatsoever so that has me concern for now.

Souls & hollows with supernatural powers are normal creatures
Yeah sure buddy

 

[Deagonx]

This seems reasonable to me.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Souls & hollows with supernatural powers are normal creatures
Yeah sure buddy

Reishi based spirits that needs food and other essentials to be alive "SuPerNaTuRaL" my ass

Again i'm pretty sure Humans were also a thing in that Primordial Universe given Soul King separated the World of Kishi and World of Reishi from that cluster. Gotta look for it tho...

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Reishi based spirits that needs food and other essentials to be alive "SuPerNaTuRaL" my ass

Send scans for primordial world people eating food or something similar. Also there are many immortals in other series who eats food. Really is this your arguments? Kinda let down.

Again i'm pretty sure Humans were also a thing in that Primordial Universe given he separated World of Kishi and World of Reishi from that cluster. Gotta look for it tho...

Send scans. There is no statement for Quincies or even human existing in primordial world.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Reishi based spirits that needs food and other essentials to be alive "SuPerNaTuRaL" my ass

Again i'm pretty sure Humans were also a thing in that Primordial Universe given he separated World of Kishi and World of Reishi from that cluster. Gotta look for it tho...

Whatever resided in that world doesn’t matter. Besides the fact you’re not even using the proper scans as to why he has CM in the 1st place.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Send scans for primordial world people eating food or something similar. Also there are many immortals in other series who eats food. Really is this your arguments? Kinda let down.

Not my fault the novels didn't expended more into the life of other individual races there

Send scans. There is no statement for Quincies or even human existing in primordial world.

There is a reason why the flow of Konpaku became a thing through both worlds which led into stabilization process of the current world as we know so its kinda logical to assume this case scenario as there should be creatures from other side that won't allow the destabilization and nobody talked about Quincies whatsoever here. They came much later through Yhwach iirc.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Not my fault the novels didn't expended more into the life of other individual races there

Irrelevant to what you said.

There is a reason why the flow of Konpaku became a thing through both worlds which led into stabilization process of the current world as we know so its kinda logical to assume this case scenario as there should be creatures from other side that won't allow the destabilization and nobody talked about Quincies whatsoever here. They came much later through Yhwach iirc.

No scans = headcanons
I don't need your words. Send the scans

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Whatever resided in that world doesn’t matter. Besides the fact you’re not even using the proper scans as to why he has CM in the 1st place.

I'm currently waiting for the staff output soo that i can proceed with ease with other replies.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I'm currently waiting for the staff output soo that i can proceed with ease.

What does staff have to do with what I’ve stated? Your evidence lacks the most important section for CM which is Ichibei’s explanation about the creation of the world and how the soul king was made.

It instead consists of things like Hisagi’s Zanpakuto description.

Ichibei outright stated there was no life nor death.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

What does staff have to do with what I’ve stated? Your evidence lacks the most important section for CM which is Ichibei’s explanation about the creation of the world and how the soul king was made.

It instead consists of things like Hisagi’s Zanpakuto description.

Ichibei outright stated there was no life nor death.

I'm pretty sure i already answered that one out. Having no life and no death =/= Having no concept of Life and Death. These are different situations and Soul King also came as a life for a dude who supposedly created the concept of Life and Death himself which could very well mean that he himself wasn't unbounded by such concepts

I again want you to ask this question to yourself whether to how Yhwach was going to merge life and death through the merging of all three worlds when his original plan wasn't to absorb the Soul King whatsoever.

Anyway for now i want you and the other dude to control their horses given i'm kinda busy here atm but i will reply back soon. Till then Sayonara!

 

[Reio35]

Reishi based spirits that needs food and other essentials to be alive "SuPerNaTuRaL" my ass

Again i'm pretty sure Humans were also a thing in that Primordial Universe given Soul King separated the World of Kishi and World of Reishi from that cluster. Gotta look for it tho...

Bro you can't be serious rn. Their's no statements of Humans having to eat things. Literally stated 3× their was no life or death and that nothing could be killed. We are even given a example of how this universe worked via hisagi's bankai which makes all things immortal

Their was no distinction between life and death as it wasn't a thing. Which is why soul king made worlds with a clear distinction of life and death. The concept of life and death affects the whole universe

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Hmmm... I will think about it.

I think some stuff you presented do make sense i suppose.

But the reason for Yhwach merging Life and Death together via destruction of borders/boundaries just doesn't sit right no matter how you see it. Especially given he wasn't even going to absorb SK till last moment.

Anyway i gotta look deeper into the Shuhei scans for more info.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Don't let me stop you.

I won't let anyone stop me don't worry.

Occam razor. If the original Japanese kanji for "Life" and "Death" in this scenario match the kanji letters for "WoTL" and "SS" then you're correct and the thread can go on to the next step which would be the implementation of such change. If those kanji match their original meaning then your interpretation is wrong regardless of the context in English as this was an original Japanese work.

Problem here is i don't have the raw scans with me atm to confirm it. It has been quite a while since i visited Bleach. I'm just enjoying the anime these days but on the topic again, it never supposed to even matter if Kanji meets with eachother. What really matters is the implications behind it. When i brought Yhwach's quote at his defeat, he referred that Life and Death was supposed to be one and that was through destruction of the borders that is stopping the world from colliding with eachother.

Yet, again this word "boundary" has to be confirmed once more in the Japanese kanji. We had mistakes like this in the past, one more recent would be the interpretation that the worlds were created by the Soul King's "Almighty" when it in fact it meant literal "Omnipotence" as in power. But in context of the story it was used as a being that could be called almost Omnipotent, not truly one. As the kanji for Almighty means both "Omnipotence and Omniscience" and that was sorted out.

Yeah i remember that one but i want you to confirm it for me instead given i'm honestly out of hands here right now.

Yes, we know the border is the Garganta. Dangai is a dimension that connects the worlds like a bridge. Garganta would be the "outerspace" where all the dimensions reside if they were link to "planets" in a physical sense. This is already accepted. How does this link to your interpretation? I don't see the connection.

The connections comes from the fact that the novels also refers Dangai as a border which appears to be strikingly similar to how another statement from the novel refers to that same border/boundary but this time between Life and Death.

I have not seeing any contradictions. Feel free to point them out.

The only reason it was brought up was in the novel, the instant the Soul King came into existence born from the chaotic world itself. The first "life" was this being who brough the creation of this concept. Remmenber the five noble houses use his power to create such a world and the concepts. Where do they got such an idea for the concept of life and death? From the very first being that contradicted both life and death.

The problem is that he himself wasn't unbounded by "Life" at all. So for me to feel him creating the "concept" of Life and Death feels suspicious to say the least.

Ichibei was present when the original Soul King came into existence rejected by the world itself. And Ichibei himself sealed Yhwach as the new Soul King in the same state. Ichibei is older than the Soul King.

Actually the more valid interpretation would be the world rejecting the chaos and thus, it created Soul King as a force of nature to counter the imbalance caused by Hollows' urge of non-stop consuming of souls.

I understand.

That would still not helped him escape the "Fear" of "Death" in any outcome. His goal was from fear of death.

The reason was not his father. Yhwach cares nothing about his father from what has been shown so far. Yhwach wanted a change in the cycle of death because to stay alive required consuming souls and everytime a soul returned to him brought pain, anger, agony, and all the memories and emotions of that person's life. He lived through all their lives and he was stuck in this permanent cycle that was curse either way he saw it.

Yes, we know this. At first, Yhwach wanted to destroy everything. But at the last second changed his mind, to become the new God and create a new system based on the old one. But remember Yhwach did not exist back in the day. Yhwach did not know how the old world function. He decided to take control of the wheel instead of facing it head on. Why? Because of "Fear" the fear of the unknown. The "Fear" of "Death" and rebirth.

Yeah that will match the interpretation how Yhwach feels whenever he consumes a soul. His characterization is honestly something hard to gauge given very low backstory has been given about him.

I see your point view and I would like to agree with you if enough evidence is brought up that will match your claim of the words "Life" and "Death" having the same kanji as "World of the Living" and "Soul Society" or at least a different kanji that is not the literal one for "Life" and "Death" in this case.

One can always apply Occam's razor in situations where interpretations are endless but the more chances of a single interpretation would be the best suitable option here. Many times throughout the novel it was stated border, boundary and boundaries which in most common cases refers to worlds and Life and Death would be a reference to Living World and Soul Society that represents these two ideas.

I wish you good luck! This will be my last post about this unless something new is brought up.

I will say this much that you are one nice dude to actually understand where i'm coming from. Thanks for the experience anyway.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I won't let anyone stop me don't worry.



Problem here is i don't have the raw scans with me atm to confirm it. It has been quite a while since i visited Bleach. I'm just enjoying the anime these days but on the topic again, it never supposed to even matter if Kanji meets with eachother. What really matters is the implications behind it. When i brought Yhwach's quote at his defeat, he referred that Life and Death was supposed to be one and that was through destruction of the borders that is stopping the world from colliding with eachother.



Yeah i remember that one but i want you to confirm it for me instead given i'm honestly out of hands here right now.



The connections comes from the fact that the novels also refers Dangai as a border which appears to be strikingly similar to how another statement from the novel refers to that same border/boundary but this time between Life and Death.



The problem is that he himself wasn't unbounded by "Life" at all. So for me to feel him creating the "concept" of Life and Death feels suspicious to say the least.



Actually the more valid interpretation would be the world rejecting the chaos and thus, it created Soul King as a force of nature to counter the imbalance caused by Hollows' urge of non-stop consuming of souls.



Yeah that will match the interpretation how Yhwach feels whenever he consumes a soul. His characterization is honestly something hard to gauge given very low backstory has been given about him.



One can always apply Occam's razor in situations where interpretations are endless but the more chances of a single interpretation would be the best suitable option here. Many times throughout the novel it was stated border, boundary and boundaries which in most common cases refers to worlds and Life and Death would be a reference to Living World and Soul Society that represents these two ideas.



I will say this much that you are one nice dude to actually understand where i'm coming from. Thanks for the experience anyway.

I think you have enough votes to enforce this, you have two agreements.

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

I don't think so. Almost no bleach supporter has made a statement on the issue yet and there are already two admins who are netural

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I'll wait to see more responses.

Neutral on this, I'll wait for more experts to comment personally.

What is the response from both of you now?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

What is the response from both of you now?

Can you wait for arc and Deceived to make a comment? Why are you trying to rush things?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Can you wait for arc and Deceived to make a comment? Why are you trying to rush things?

I'm not rushing anything, just that it's been more than 24 hours and no response from him, we have 2 agreements enough to apply the changes.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'm not rushing anything, just that it's been more than 24 hours and no response from him, we have 2 agreements enough to apply the changes.

That's what called rushing. This is not some fodder ability revision. CM revisions needs 3 staffs disagreeing atleast. Also there are tons of threads which goes on for more than a week atleast so kindly stop this behaviour.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

That's what called rushing. This is not some fodder ability revision. CM revisions needs 3 staffs disagreeing atleast. Also there are tons of threads which goes on for more than a week atleast so kindly stop this behaviour.

I'm not behaving in any way, I'm just telling the truth, anyway I called someone else to help with this, so there's no need to be rude, right?

 

[Damage3245]

If Arc and/or Deceived are going to leave a comment, I'll see what they have to say.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'm not behaving in any way,

I think you have enough votes to enforce this, you have two agreements.

^

I'm just telling the truth, anyway I called someone else to help with this, so there's no need to be rude, right?

So someone suggesting that you should stop rushing the thread, wait for supporters' input, and state what is written in the VS Wiki rules means they are being rude?

Feel free to enlighten me how me pointing out you need 3 staff input and stop rushing the thread means rude? Your comment only states only 2 staff agreed with the thread.

Discussion Rules

VS Battles Wiki is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. These efforts lead to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calculations regarding their validity, reliability, etc. However, certain topics keep popping...

vsbattles.fandom.com

In cases where the series verse has a significant following or a large amount of material has been published based on its content, it may be necessary to seek approval from a minimum of three staff members to ensure that all relevant parties are aware of and agree with the proposed revisions.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I'm in the same boat as Damage here.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I'm in the same boat as Damage here.

Can you tag them? The thread is already on the second page, so notifications might be off. I doubt they remember this.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Can you tag them? The thread is already on the second page, so notifications might be off. I doubt they remember this.

@Arc7Kuroi @Deceived3596

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@Arc7Kuroi @Deceived3596

Thanks

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi @Deceived3596

There are plans to revamp the Soul King’s profile in the far future since it’s pretty ass rn. Aka idrc what happens here.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

There are plans to revamp the Soul King’s profile in the far future since it’s pretty ass rn. Aka idrc what happens here.

 

[Deceived3596]

Initially, I was planning on giving my opinion of this thread, but after further consideration I decided that I'll just address this issue later when I decide to go through the novels again and revise Soul King's profile. So as of now, I'm fine with it being removed.

In summary; I'm lazy and don't wanna go through the novels right now

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Deceived real FRA

 

[Damage3245]

Alright. I'm fine with the proposal in the OP for now.

 

[Excellence616]

I agree with OP then

 

[SuperSonicTL]

There are plans to revamp the Soul King’s profile in the far future since it’s pretty ass rn. Aka idrc what happens here.

I mean sure.

If there will be more valid proof then i honestly won't mind it back. Though the current reasons are pretty vague and as you just said, the Soul King's profile has barely any scans to it and just a whole bunch of text here and there.

 

[Bastolan27]

I believe it should possibly be because he was stated to have given Ichibei his powers or something like that. I might be wrong, though; someone should look for that scan.