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This is closely related to a couple of previous threads. For context, here they are:
In the first thread, it was concluded that "World of the Living" and "Soul Society" should be treated as universe-sized dimensions. World of the Living is also referred to as the "Real World", and it and Soul Society are two sides of the same coin.
WotL = World of the Living / Real World
SS = Soul Society
From this point on, I will use "WotL" and "SS" to refer to "World of the Living" and "Soul Society" respectively.
Shoutout to @Cyberblader90 and @Damage3245 for helping with this. Let's unpack.
1. The second biggest misconception in VSBW Bleach: "WotL and SS refer to universes"
I have recently read the entire manga, watched the canon movie, and gleaned relevant information from the novels. And there isn't one statement that I can quote and say with 100% surety that "in this statement right here, WotL and SS are definitely referring to different universes". Not one. Zilch. In each instance, the terms WotL and SS have always been used to refer to specific planets (Earth and SS planet). The context below will make it clear.
"When hollows aren't chasing souls, they hide between WotL and SS. We can't locate it until it shows up in the real world to attack Chad! That's why we wait for orders from the Soul Society."
"Real world' here is referring to Earth, because that's where the hollow will show up to attack Chad. "Soul Society" is referring to the planet SS because that's where the orders will come from.
"An equal amount of souls must be maintained in the Soul Society and this world at all times"
We know Souls are maintained by the Soul Reapers only on the planet SS and planet Earth. The scope of the show never goes beyond these planets in their respective domains. Therefore, SS is once again referring to SS planet in this statement. And "this world" is referring to Earth.
"Its the job of the Soul Reapers to adjust the number of souls in the two worlds."
Two worlds being planet Earth and planet SS. Those are the two places/worlds where Soul Reapers actively operate and do their jobs.
"The souls released by the Soul Society are accounted for by the soul reapers when they are born into earthly creatures. The souls that die here are returned to the Soul Society"
It doesn't get any more direct than this. We know the souls are released from SS planet. And they are born into "this world" as "earthly creatures", clearly referring to Earth and creatures on Earth. And they go back to the SS planet when they die in this world (Earth). From above context, it's pretty blatant that they talk about the SS planet when they say "Soul Society" and Earth when they say "this world", "real world" or "world of the living".
"Sending souls to the WotL from SS as living organisms. Guiding dead souls to the SS without discrimination. By doing so, we keep an eye on the total number of souls and adjust the balance with the WotL accordingly."
Pretty blatant once again. They send souls to Earth from SS planet as living organisms (living organisms only exist on Earth). They guide the dead souls from Earth back to SS planet. They keep track of all the souls present on Earth and SS planet and keep the balance.
"Quincies completely extinguish souls that have become hollows. That means souls that were sent to the WotL disappear without ever returning to the SS."
Where do Quincies extinguish souls? On Earth (WotL). And therefore, the souls on Earth (WotL) do not return back to SS planet.
"Both worlds would collapse"
Again note that just like Rukia's statement above, here also Earth (WotL) and SS planet are being referred to as "worlds".
"All the moisture in the Soul Society is quietly and slowly disappearing"
Checking the context from here and here, we see that only the moisture of the planet's atmosphere was burning up. Which makes sense because outer space doesn't have moisture. So again a pretty blatant instance of SS only referring to the planet.
"Do I want to breathe the air you ask? The air of that pitiful Soul Society that is about to be crushed by Yhwach"
Air of that pitiful Soul Society. Do I really need to explain how this is not referring to the universe, but the planet?
When Yhwach talks about destroying the Soul Society, and WotL as a result, we see tremors on those two planets. Earth and SS planet only. Not across the universe.
"A town from the WotL suddeny appeared above the Seireitei"
"A town from the universe" would never make sense in this context, it's counterintuitive. Universe is very expansive and town is very specific. It's obvious they are talking about "a town from Earth". A clear cut example of WotL referring to Earth only. And this is from Memories of Nobody, which is related to Senna's feat.
"World of the Living is being visible from the Soul Society"
As the above context makes it clear, only Earth was being visible in the sky of Soul Society planet. Once again, a direct example where WotL refers to Earth and SS refers to planet.
"The Valley of Screams has connected WotL and SS. There is no way a tunnel connecting two hoshi can be created naturally."
Toshiro uses the word hoshi, which can either mean planet or star. Here it is translated as star. But we know from above context that he was talking about planets. (Hoshi is not a generic term for any celestial body. The term for celestial body or heavenly body is tentai.)
Like I said, there exists a total of zero statements which I can quote to you and say with 100% surety that "here they use the terms WotL and SS to refer to respective universes". Not one. And all these statements exist where the implication is very clear. The terms "World of the Living / Real World" and "Soul Society" have always been used in the context of planets, to refer to planets. These planets are repeatedly called "worlds". Do I need to go on?
"When soul reapers die, their body turns into reishi and is reclaimed by the soil of the Soul Scoiety". Reishi that is third-class and above can never return to the soil of the Soul Society. I am sure I don't need to spell it out how "soil of the SS" is referring directly to the planet. Statement speaks for itself.
"...it cut through the Soul Society's sky". Another direct statement spoken in the context of the planet.
There are several more examples like Toshiro being assigned to head the operation to check out the spiritual waves in "WotL", so he came to "Earth" to check, implying WotL = Earth. Or statements like "Ichigo went to the Soul Society" when in fact he went to SS planet, implying SS = planet. But at this point, I am sure I don't need to go on. I consider this much an overkill already.
2. Senna's feat
Now that we have established that WotL and SS are nothing but planet Earth and SS planet, let's dive into Senna's feat. I'll quote stuff from the previous thread:
I have already shown above that WotL and SS are always called "worlds". Note how they always refer to the Valley of Screams as dimension.
Furthermore, Mayuri's statement is clearly referring to the same dimension which passed beyond the critical zone. A previous scene also talked about how the "target" will pass beyond the critical zone in five minutes. The target of the kido cannon here is the Valley of Screams dimension.
So, the Earth (WotL) and SS (planet) were on the collision course. Two worlds. Two planets. Not two universes.
It was also argued that the color the worlds are shown as proves they cannot be planets in this film, due to what would be earth's color not matching up. This ignores the fact its most likely the colorization from the interior of the dangai causing this color, as shown when senna's explosions go from a green colorization to yellow-reddish one when it pans out to the dangai. Plus, universes don't look like solid planets from afar. They are transparent and have glowing stars, etc. inside them.
3. Possible counterarguments and clearing up some more misconceptions
I know what counterarguments will follow so I'll save time and note them down here.
There is nothing inherently wrong with this statement from the novels. But it doesn't mean the WotL and SS are universe-sized. The statement has the same effect as me saying "If Ant destroyed the planet then we would return to a universe in which there would be no Earth."
But that's not all. The raws don't have the kanji for universe in it. It has "sekai". Sekai/world is being translated as universe here. Which is a fairly common thing in the manga too. For example:
This infamous statement where Rukia says "collapse of the universe", is actually "collapse of the sekai/world" in the raws.
Same here too.
Same here too.
The context of these "collapse of the universe/world" statements is the explanation from Rukia which I already provided above. Where she talks about how the imbalance of souls on Earth (WotL) and SS (planet) will make both worlds to combine and be destroyed. Same explanation is given later, with the correct translation as per the context, where the collapse of both worlds (planets) is said to be the collective collapse of the world.
Sekai/world (which is translated as universe by Viz) here is referring to the particular sphere of activity that includes Earth (WotL) and SS (planet).
Some would argue that there exists a universal flow of konpaku/souls so souls flow throughout the universe, not only Earth and SS planets. That is not what "universal" here means.
Universal: relating to or done by all people or things in the world or in a particular group; applicable to all cases. For ex: "universal adult suffrage"
The scope of the word can be extremely limited. The flow of souls is called universal because it is applicable to every person. Just like how we call something a universal currency, or a universal grammatical rule.
Some would argue that because it is said "if" the WotL and SS could be "likened" to planets, means they are not actually planets.
That is a faulty interpretation. This statement is used to give an easy to understand explanation of what is Garganta. The structure here is being compared to real life planets and space because they are easier to visualize and understand. WotL and SS are being compared to two real life planets which can be seen together, and Garganta is being compared to the space between them. Because it's much easier to imagine two planets, say Mercury and Venus, and the space between them, and then compare it with Earth, SS planet and Garganta, which are not in view together due to being dimensionally separate, and are therefore difficult to visualize and understand.
Nothing about it implies WotL and SS are referring to universes. This statement would hold true if they are only planets as well.
"She had been given the right to literally protect the stars."
Some would argue to take this literally and assume that Soul Reapers protect stars. We know they don't. That's not their job. But let's take a look at the context.
"I love the night sky, Kaname. It reminds me of the world. Everything's covered in darkness. There are tiny points of light everywhere, but the clouds try to cover them up."
It's a metaphor. She is comparing the night sky with the world. Just like how stars in the night sky are covered by clouds, the world is also filled with good people/things (stars), but bad people (clouds) try to cover them up.
"You see, Kaname, I want to clear away those clouds so that not a single light is hidden. I am going to clear away those clouds, Kaname."
She wanted to clear away the bad to protect the good. Not that she literally wanted to fly up in the sky and clear the clouds so that people could see the stars.
"The woman fulfilled her dream. She had obtained the power and position to protect the world's light as a Soul Reaper. Soul Reapers led the inhabitants of the WotL in SS and maintained the cycle of souls. They drove away the evil souls called Hollows. She had been given the right to literally protect the stars."
It's comparing a Soul Reaper's job of driving away evil souls and maintaining the balance as driving away the clouds (bad things) and protecting the stars (good things).
"She once said, 'My hope isn't anything special. It's just a paltry wish to protect something that continues to shine like the stars in the sky.'"
This is blatantly spelling out that she wanted to protect something that shines like the stars (good people/things), not actual stars, confirming that it is a metaphor.
4. Conclusion
World of the Living refers to Earth.
Soul Society refers to the planet.
Senna's feat goes back from "pushing away two universes" to "pushing away two planets".
Note: The focus of this thread is Senna's feat. Not the rest. Details about Yhwach's feat will be discussed in a later thread.
Note 2: This is a no-nonsense thread. Please don't derail it. I am not going to make it staff-only. But I am going to delete all the derailing comments and issue threadbans.
In the first thread, it was concluded that "World of the Living" and "Soul Society" should be treated as universe-sized dimensions. World of the Living is also referred to as the "Real World", and it and Soul Society are two sides of the same coin.
WotL = World of the Living / Real World
SS = Soul Society
From this point on, I will use "WotL" and "SS" to refer to "World of the Living" and "Soul Society" respectively.
Shoutout to @Cyberblader90 and @Damage3245 for helping with this. Let's unpack.
1. The second biggest misconception in VSBW Bleach: "WotL and SS refer to universes"
I have recently read the entire manga, watched the canon movie, and gleaned relevant information from the novels. And there isn't one statement that I can quote and say with 100% surety that "in this statement right here, WotL and SS are definitely referring to different universes". Not one. Zilch. In each instance, the terms WotL and SS have always been used to refer to specific planets (Earth and SS planet). The context below will make it clear.
"When hollows aren't chasing souls, they hide between WotL and SS. We can't locate it until it shows up in the real world to attack Chad! That's why we wait for orders from the Soul Society."
"Real world' here is referring to Earth, because that's where the hollow will show up to attack Chad. "Soul Society" is referring to the planet SS because that's where the orders will come from.
"An equal amount of souls must be maintained in the Soul Society and this world at all times"
We know Souls are maintained by the Soul Reapers only on the planet SS and planet Earth. The scope of the show never goes beyond these planets in their respective domains. Therefore, SS is once again referring to SS planet in this statement. And "this world" is referring to Earth.
"Its the job of the Soul Reapers to adjust the number of souls in the two worlds."
Two worlds being planet Earth and planet SS. Those are the two places/worlds where Soul Reapers actively operate and do their jobs.
"The souls released by the Soul Society are accounted for by the soul reapers when they are born into earthly creatures. The souls that die here are returned to the Soul Society"
It doesn't get any more direct than this. We know the souls are released from SS planet. And they are born into "this world" as "earthly creatures", clearly referring to Earth and creatures on Earth. And they go back to the SS planet when they die in this world (Earth). From above context, it's pretty blatant that they talk about the SS planet when they say "Soul Society" and Earth when they say "this world", "real world" or "world of the living".
"Sending souls to the WotL from SS as living organisms. Guiding dead souls to the SS without discrimination. By doing so, we keep an eye on the total number of souls and adjust the balance with the WotL accordingly."
Pretty blatant once again. They send souls to Earth from SS planet as living organisms (living organisms only exist on Earth). They guide the dead souls from Earth back to SS planet. They keep track of all the souls present on Earth and SS planet and keep the balance.
"Quincies completely extinguish souls that have become hollows. That means souls that were sent to the WotL disappear without ever returning to the SS."
Where do Quincies extinguish souls? On Earth (WotL). And therefore, the souls on Earth (WotL) do not return back to SS planet.
"Both worlds would collapse"
Again note that just like Rukia's statement above, here also Earth (WotL) and SS planet are being referred to as "worlds".
"All the moisture in the Soul Society is quietly and slowly disappearing"
Checking the context from here and here, we see that only the moisture of the planet's atmosphere was burning up. Which makes sense because outer space doesn't have moisture. So again a pretty blatant instance of SS only referring to the planet.
"Do I want to breathe the air you ask? The air of that pitiful Soul Society that is about to be crushed by Yhwach"
Air of that pitiful Soul Society. Do I really need to explain how this is not referring to the universe, but the planet?
When Yhwach talks about destroying the Soul Society, and WotL as a result, we see tremors on those two planets. Earth and SS planet only. Not across the universe.
"A town from the WotL suddeny appeared above the Seireitei"
"A town from the universe" would never make sense in this context, it's counterintuitive. Universe is very expansive and town is very specific. It's obvious they are talking about "a town from Earth". A clear cut example of WotL referring to Earth only. And this is from Memories of Nobody, which is related to Senna's feat.
"World of the Living is being visible from the Soul Society"
As the above context makes it clear, only Earth was being visible in the sky of Soul Society planet. Once again, a direct example where WotL refers to Earth and SS refers to planet.
"The Valley of Screams has connected WotL and SS. There is no way a tunnel connecting two hoshi can be created naturally."
Toshiro uses the word hoshi, which can either mean planet or star. Here it is translated as star. But we know from above context that he was talking about planets. (Hoshi is not a generic term for any celestial body. The term for celestial body or heavenly body is tentai.)
Like I said, there exists a total of zero statements which I can quote to you and say with 100% surety that "here they use the terms WotL and SS to refer to respective universes". Not one. And all these statements exist where the implication is very clear. The terms "World of the Living / Real World" and "Soul Society" have always been used in the context of planets, to refer to planets. These planets are repeatedly called "worlds". Do I need to go on?
"When soul reapers die, their body turns into reishi and is reclaimed by the soil of the Soul Scoiety". Reishi that is third-class and above can never return to the soil of the Soul Society. I am sure I don't need to spell it out how "soil of the SS" is referring directly to the planet. Statement speaks for itself.
"...it cut through the Soul Society's sky". Another direct statement spoken in the context of the planet.
There are several more examples like Toshiro being assigned to head the operation to check out the spiritual waves in "WotL", so he came to "Earth" to check, implying WotL = Earth. Or statements like "Ichigo went to the Soul Society" when in fact he went to SS planet, implying SS = planet. But at this point, I am sure I don't need to go on. I consider this much an overkill already.
2. Senna's feat
Now that we have established that WotL and SS are nothing but planet Earth and SS planet, let's dive into Senna's feat. I'll quote stuff from the previous thread:
True. Because as we have seen in above examples, WotL and SS are repeatedly called "worlds" throughout the series. And world here means planet with the context we have.
Not really. Kisuke states that Soul Society (planet) is in a different dimension. Which it is. Note that again Kisuke is referring to the planet as "Soul Society", which is in a different dimension, and that dimension is not being referred to as Soul Society. There is a clear distinction which further confirms that SS is not used to refer to the dimension, but only the planet. It doesn't get more blatant than this.
This pivotal part of that thread was taken out of context. Mayuri never stated that the dimensions are being pulled together. He says "the dimension passed beyond the critical zone" referring to Kyogoku or Valley of Screams.
I have already shown above that WotL and SS are always called "worlds". Note how they always refer to the Valley of Screams as dimension.
Furthermore, Mayuri's statement is clearly referring to the same dimension which passed beyond the critical zone. A previous scene also talked about how the "target" will pass beyond the critical zone in five minutes. The target of the kido cannon here is the Valley of Screams dimension.
So, the Earth (WotL) and SS (planet) were on the collision course. Two worlds. Two planets. Not two universes.
It was also argued that the color the worlds are shown as proves they cannot be planets in this film, due to what would be earth's color not matching up. This ignores the fact its most likely the colorization from the interior of the dangai causing this color, as shown when senna's explosions go from a green colorization to yellow-reddish one when it pans out to the dangai. Plus, universes don't look like solid planets from afar. They are transparent and have glowing stars, etc. inside them.
3. Possible counterarguments and clearing up some more misconceptions
I know what counterarguments will follow so I'll save time and note them down here.
There is nothing inherently wrong with this statement from the novels. But it doesn't mean the WotL and SS are universe-sized. The statement has the same effect as me saying "If Ant destroyed the planet then we would return to a universe in which there would be no Earth."
But that's not all. The raws don't have the kanji for universe in it. It has "sekai". Sekai/world is being translated as universe here. Which is a fairly common thing in the manga too. For example:
This infamous statement where Rukia says "collapse of the universe", is actually "collapse of the sekai/world" in the raws.
Same here too.
Same here too.
The context of these "collapse of the universe/world" statements is the explanation from Rukia which I already provided above. Where she talks about how the imbalance of souls on Earth (WotL) and SS (planet) will make both worlds to combine and be destroyed. Same explanation is given later, with the correct translation as per the context, where the collapse of both worlds (planets) is said to be the collective collapse of the world.
Sekai/world (which is translated as universe by Viz) here is referring to the particular sphere of activity that includes Earth (WotL) and SS (planet).
Some would argue that there exists a universal flow of konpaku/souls so souls flow throughout the universe, not only Earth and SS planets. That is not what "universal" here means.
Universal: relating to or done by all people or things in the world or in a particular group; applicable to all cases. For ex: "universal adult suffrage"
The scope of the word can be extremely limited. The flow of souls is called universal because it is applicable to every person. Just like how we call something a universal currency, or a universal grammatical rule.
Some would argue that because it is said "if" the WotL and SS could be "likened" to planets, means they are not actually planets.
That is a faulty interpretation. This statement is used to give an easy to understand explanation of what is Garganta. The structure here is being compared to real life planets and space because they are easier to visualize and understand. WotL and SS are being compared to two real life planets which can be seen together, and Garganta is being compared to the space between them. Because it's much easier to imagine two planets, say Mercury and Venus, and the space between them, and then compare it with Earth, SS planet and Garganta, which are not in view together due to being dimensionally separate, and are therefore difficult to visualize and understand.
Nothing about it implies WotL and SS are referring to universes. This statement would hold true if they are only planets as well.
- "But sekai can also mean universe. They don't have to be planets. They could be universes."
- The "star" argument was already addressed in Cyber's previous thread that I linked, but I will clarify it here too.
Please read these two scans.
"She had been given the right to literally protect the stars."
Some would argue to take this literally and assume that Soul Reapers protect stars. We know they don't. That's not their job. But let's take a look at the context.
"I love the night sky, Kaname. It reminds me of the world. Everything's covered in darkness. There are tiny points of light everywhere, but the clouds try to cover them up."
It's a metaphor. She is comparing the night sky with the world. Just like how stars in the night sky are covered by clouds, the world is also filled with good people/things (stars), but bad people (clouds) try to cover them up.
"You see, Kaname, I want to clear away those clouds so that not a single light is hidden. I am going to clear away those clouds, Kaname."
She wanted to clear away the bad to protect the good. Not that she literally wanted to fly up in the sky and clear the clouds so that people could see the stars.
"The woman fulfilled her dream. She had obtained the power and position to protect the world's light as a Soul Reaper. Soul Reapers led the inhabitants of the WotL in SS and maintained the cycle of souls. They drove away the evil souls called Hollows. She had been given the right to literally protect the stars."
It's comparing a Soul Reaper's job of driving away evil souls and maintaining the balance as driving away the clouds (bad things) and protecting the stars (good things).
"She once said, 'My hope isn't anything special. It's just a paltry wish to protect something that continues to shine like the stars in the sky.'"
This is blatantly spelling out that she wanted to protect something that shines like the stars (good people/things), not actual stars, confirming that it is a metaphor.
4. Conclusion
World of the Living refers to Earth.
Soul Society refers to the planet.
Senna's feat goes back from "pushing away two universes" to "pushing away two planets".
Note: The focus of this thread is Senna's feat. Not the rest. Details about Yhwach's feat will be discussed in a later thread.
Note 2: This is a no-nonsense thread. Please don't derail it. I am not going to make it staff-only. But I am going to delete all the derailing comments and issue threadbans.
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no mrk behavior allowed.
