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Sans Intelligence

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ZillertheBucko said:
Saying it’s not that impressive doesn’t make it not that impressive.
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I mean it just objectively isn't that impressive compared to most conventional extraordinary genius feats and characters.

For example, literally every person listed as a notable extraordinary genius on the intelligence page has vastly better feats. Like incomparably better.

It being an extraordinary feat is actually debatable. Rereading the definition and seeing the examples list, it probably doesn't even qualify.
 
Phoenks said:
I mean it just objectively isn't that impressive compared to most conventional extraordinary genius feats and characters.
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He can literally tell if chara killed him before based on facial expressions. Thats a little beyond regular genius and thats not even debatable
 
Phoenks said:
I mean it just objectively isn't that impressive compared to most conventional extraordinary genius feats and characters.

For example, literally every person listed as a notable extraordinary genius on the intelligence page has vastly better feats. Like incomparably better.

It being an extraordinary feat is actually debatable. Rereading the definition and seeing the examples list, it probably doesn't even qualify.
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How is calculating the future through intelligence that much smarter than being able to perfectly deduce the past from another timeline that you’ve never even interacted with just based off a facial expression?
 
ZillertheBucko said:
How is calculating the future through intelligence that much smarter than being able to perfectly deduce the past from another timeline that you’ve never even interacted with just based off a facial expression?
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??? Calculating the future is absurdly more impressive than just deducing how many times you've killed someone via expression.

Sans knows about the timelines already. And if Frisk just suddenly pops up looking frustrated, then it really isn't that much of a stretch for him to say that. The counting is the impressive part.

But all he is doing is deducing a number based on the amount of frustration on Frisk's face.

Calculating the future involves way more than that. Prediction of multiple, more diverse actions throughout time, accounting for things like the butterfly effect, and etc.... Is way more advanced than just deducing something as specific as "how many times I've killed you before."
 
Phoenks said:
??? Calculating the future is absurdly more impressive than just deducing how many times you've killed someone via expression.

Sans knows about the timelines already. And if Frisk just suddenly pops up looking frustrated, then it really isn't that much of a stretch for him to say that. The counting is the impressive part.

But all he is doing is deducing a number based on the amount of frustration on Frisk's face.

Calculating the future involves way more than that. Prediction of multiple, more diverse actions throughout time, accounting for things like the butterfly effect, and etc.... Is way more advanced than just deducing something as specific as "how many times I've killed you before."
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If its impossible by normal human genius standards (Which it is) then its extraordinary genius by default.

Also he can deduce HE has died before and he does this via facial expression and if its just chara smiling or making a creepy face then thats a HUGE jump to assume that he died before. For all sans knows chara killed someone on the way over, or they just look creepy because thats how they always look. Assuming correctly that you have just been killed based on facial expressions is insane.
 
Phoenks said:
??? Calculating the future is absurdly more impressive than just deducing how many times you've killed someone via expression.

Sans knows about the timelines already. And if Frisk just suddenly pops up looking frustrated, then it really isn't that much of a stretch for him to say that. The counting is the impressive part.

But all he is doing is deducing a number based on the amount of frustration on Frisk's face.

Calculating the future involves way more than that. Prediction of multiple, more diverse actions throughout time, accounting for things like the butterfly effect, and etc.... Is way more advanced than just deducing something as specific as "how many times I've killed you before."
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I think I don't have to explain how incredibly weak the correlation between angry expression and the exact amount of times someone has died is
it’s like saying “1+1=2 therefore the position of the sun….”
it’s something that a genius wouldn’t be able to do
 
King_Dom470 said:
If its impossible by normal human genius standards (Which it is) then its extraordinary genius by default.
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That's incorrect. Just being above human intelligence is not automatically extraordinary genius.

Extraordinary genius is having superior intellect to humanity in multiple different fields and doing stuff that is far out of the ordinary.


King_Dom470 said:
Also he can deduce HE has died before and he does this via facial expression and if its just chara smiling or making a creepy face then thats a HUGE jump to assume that he died before. For all sans knows chara killed someone on the way over, or they just look creepy because thats how they always look. Assuming correctly that you have just been killed based on facial expressions is insane.
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No matter how much you try to make this sound impressive, it simply doesn't hold up compared to the standard for extraordinary geniuses.

Most of them have feats of creating futuristic technology that is far into the supernatural, or predicting future via mental thought alone, or creating complex plans that span hundreds of years, making suits and armors that can withstand cosmic levels of power and whatnot.

Then you have Sans, who... Can predict how many times he killed someone, and if he's died to someone before, by looking at someone's blatant expression.

If you're honest, you have to note the sheer distance between these two levels.
 
Phoenks said:
That's incorrect. Just being above human intelligence is not automatically extraordinary genius.

Extraordinary genius is having superior intellect to humanity in multiple different fields and doing stuff that is far out of the ordinary.



No matter how much you try to make this sound impressive, it simply doesn't hold up compared to the standard for extraordinary geniuses.

Most of them have feats of creating futuristic technology that is far into the supernatural, or predicting future via mental thought alone, or creating complex plans that span hundreds of years, making suits and armors that can withstand cosmic levels of power and whatnot.

Then you have Sans, who... Can predict how many times he killed someone, and if he's died to someone before, by looking at someone's blatant expression.

If you're honest, you have to note the sheer distance between these two levels.
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I love how you word the feats sans have to make it sound lame 💀
 
ShionAH said:
I love how you word the feats sans have to make it sound lame 💀
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Okay how about this.

HE CAN DEDUCE HOW MANY TIMES HE'S KILLED SOMEONE IN OTHER TIMELINES BY LOOKING AT THEIR EXPRESSION.

It still isn't impressive enough for extraordinary genius idk what to tell you.

Get better feats I guess.
 
Phoenks said:
, or predicting future via mental thought alone,
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Without context I can literally downplay this to weather forecasting level
this is indeed a case of wording things in a way that sounds convenient, so at the very least give the same level of elaboration on sans
 
ZillertheBucko said:
Without context I can literally downplay this to weather forecasting level
this is indeed a case of wording things in a way that sounds convenient, so at the very least give the same level of elaboration on sans
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I don't know what kind of argument you're attempting here.

Weather forecasters just provide educated guesses based on the post-industrial technology that measure things like humidity, wind, temperature, cloud formations, and etc... And produce % predictions based on previous trends in an area regarding the information they collect.

They aren't even the ones doing these predictions, it's machinery and tech.

Compare that to people who can just look at someone at know everything they'll do in that day, or calculate multiple different events that will happen in a day, consistently, without any outside help.

I shouldn't need to explain why this is absolutely not the same as a weather forecaster.
 
Phoenks said:
That's incorrect. Just being above human intelligence is not automatically extraordinary genius.

Extraordinary genius is having superior intellect to humanity in multiple different fields and doing stuff that is far out of the ordinary.



No matter how much you try to make this sound impressive, it simply doesn't hold up compared to the standard for extraordinary geniuses.

Most of them have feats of creating futuristic technology that is far into the supernatural, or predicting future via mental thought alone, or creating complex plans that span hundreds of years, making suits and armors that can withstand cosmic levels of power and whatnot.

Then you have Sans, who... Can predict how many times he killed someone, and if he's died to someone before, by looking at someone's blatant expression.

If you're honest, you have to note the sheer distance between these two levels.
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Just because its not as good a feat as some other people who are extraordinary genius's doesn’t mean sans isn't one.

Sure its not as impressive as someone like Rick Sanchez or batman or something but tbh i can't see most other extraordinary genius’s being able to replicate what sans is doing here. So at the very least his deductive ability are easily extraordinary genius.

<"Then you have Sans, who... Can predict how many times he killed someone, and if he's died to someone before, by looking at someone's blatant expression."
Also tf? Blatant expression is crazy 💀. Chara is just making a face, are you genuinely saying that a real world genius could look at someone being creepy and think "Damn i guess they’ve killed me before". Even within the context of the fight, he was killed by chara and was actively counting up the deaths no amount of real world genius's could count up their own deaths when they should have no clue a fight had even happened yet
 
Again just having intellect feats that aren't possible IRL isn't enough for extraordinary genius intelligence...

And I assume the expression must be pretty blatant to make Sans notice it and describe it that way... Wdym?

You all should just wait for others to come in.

But as you've seen already most staff who know about intelligence on the wiki do not agree with your takes.
 
Phoenks said:
And I assume the expression must be pretty blatant to make Sans notice it and describe it that way... Wdym?
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Yeah but it literally does not matter how blatant it is even if Chara straight up drew on their face "I killed you" he's still deducing the number of times they've done that.

Also if you spare sans and he kills you then he's able to figure out thats what happened. This is impressive because at best Chara walked up looking angry and sans deduced that he tricked them. But walking up angry could've just meant that their getting frustrated by the amount of failures assuming that they got tricked is again crazy.

Same thing with the smiling thing he counts up his own deaths twice just by them smiling? Why would their facial expression look different enough to distinguish between getting killed once and sans getting killed twice?

He can also tell if they've done multiple playthroughs before just by sans noticing how frisk "Seems to always know whats going to happen"
 
Lacks genius and extraordinary genius feats.

Only decent thing here is expression reading, which is not THAT good. And again, just having one feat, that is arguably not even genius, is not enough for genius intellect and especially extraordinary genius.

I don't know how many times I have to say that's not how we treat intelligence here. People who are skilled in areas like combat skill, and have similar feats like predicting movement or actions via analysis, are still not rated that way because it's only in a particular area.

The area Sans would be skilled in is even more particular than that, while also not being as impressive.

It's like I am just repeating myself here.

He's at best genius, and more likely just gifted.
 
Ngl, looking at his current intelligence justification, I think Sans would be better listed as "Gifted, possibly Genius". Nothing comes even remotely close to an extraordinary genius. I would say the quantum physics/timeline stuff would work in his favor, but I think the implication of reading on a book that could possibly make someone a genius is pretty weak (I've read plenty of Wikipedia articles on quantum physics but that doesn't make me an expert on the topic. Hell, that doesn't even mean I understand what half that shit means). The fact that he also says "our reports" in regards to the timelines also implies he didn't figure that out by himself, rip.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Ngl, looking at his current intelligence justification, I think Sans would be better listed as "Gifted, possibly Genius". Nothing comes even remotely close to an extraordinary genius. I would say the quantum physics/timeline stuff would work in his favor, but I think the implication of reading on a book that could possibly make someone a genius is pretty weak (I've read plenty of Wikipedia articles on quantum physics but that doesn't make me an expert on the topic. Hell, that doesn't even mean I understand what half that shit means). The fact that he also says "our reports" in regards to the timelines also implies he didn't figure that out by himself, rip.
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it being a group project doesnt disqualify him. it's like saying stephen hawking had no hand in the study of hawking radiation because Einstein discovered it first.
 
Marshadow29 said:
it being a group project doesnt disqualify him. it's like saying stephen hawking had no hand in the study of hawking radiation because Einstein discovered it first.
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No? We know exactly what Stephen Hawking contributed to the study of Hawking Radiation, because things like that are easily recorded and accessible IRL. The problem here is that we have no way to measure what Sans knows and what he accomplished; It's way too vague.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
No? We know exactly what Stephen Hawking contributed to the study of Hawking Radiation, because things like that are easily recorded and accessible IRL. The problem here is that we have no way to measure what Sans knows and what he accomplished; It's way too vague.
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if we use irl standards:

Criteria for Authorship

Each author is expected to have made substantial contributions to the conception or design of the work; or the acquisition, analysis, or interpretation of data; or the creation of new software used in the work; or have drafted the work or substantively revised it
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sans would not have a minor role in the creation.
 
Marshadow29 said:
if we use irl standards:


sans would not have a minor role in the creation.
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...That is the criteria for authorship. This would require Sans' reports to exist as a published scientific study, and not just a set of conclusions drawn by him and some other randos. This is also assuming that Sans is saying "our reports" in regards to himself being among one of this hypothetical research team's co-authors, of which there is no indication.

The entire thing is, perhaps deliberately, vague as hell. I'm not sure if it's even usable as an intelligence feat beyond "knows that timelines are getting fucked up somehow".
 
Not this shit again... No, he isn't a Extraordinary Genius for having mildly superhuman observation on expressions and reading a god damn report from an unknown source. E.G can do outwordly shit with their intelligence, and besides these two feats, Sans has no demonstrations of that level of intellect in battle, or in any specific fields to E.G degrees.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Not this shit again... No, he isn't a Extraordinary Genius for having mildly superhuman observation on expressions and reading a god damn report from an unknown source. E.G can do outwordly shit with their intelligence, and besides these two feats, Sans has no demonstrations of that level of intellect in battle, or in any specific fields to E.G degrees.
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Do you agree with Gifted? If not, what does he has that proves genius?
 
Only way he could be an Extraordinary Genius is if he can make time machines and shit on his own (and they actually work). Bulma is an Extraordinary Genius because her future self made a time machine on her own in an apocalyptic world with few materials to work with, and the modern Bulma can understand the time machine her future self made in detail and make fuel for it.

Sans could be on that level in the future depending on if we get some big reveals about his backstory, and of course depending on what happens in said reveals, however there is currently no way to prove that Sans' intellectual abilities are on that level.

As for Gifted versus Genius, that's more complex. Going by hard feats and definitions then yeah Gifted would actually be more appropriate. But the mountain of implications, both narrative and direct, would more suggest that Sans is a Genius if not greater. Even if his intelligence was downgraded, the minimum that could be given would be a vague "At least Gifted, likely higher".
 
Also y’all need to stop downplaying sans knowing how many times he’s died via facial expressions. I don’t care if it’s “super specific to one area”. This ridiculous feat of deduction paired with the fact that he had some hand in the creation of the machine should be at the very least genius
 
RinneItachi said:
x. Going by hard feats and definitions then yeah Gifted would actually be more appropriate. But the mountain of implications, both narrative and direct, would more suggest that Sans is a Genius if not greater. Even if his intelligence was downgraded, the minimum that could be given would be a vague "At least Gifted, likely higher".
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Being a genius in-verse =/= being a genius on the wiki, just going to say that. Sure, he's made out to be that way in Undertale, but that doesn't necessarily give him any reasons to be a genius on this wiki.

Anyway, "at least Gifted" should be fine. The far higher part seems unnecessary.
 
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