Sans Intelligence Downgrade

[ShionAH]

Issue here it's not that he's pulling a Rick Sanchez where every Rick from the multiverse go in the Council of Ricks, those Sans-es never worked together.

I am not saying they worked together dummy. I am saying Sans in this case is basically saying "Every sans has their own reports and our reports showed this and this" Basically talking about how every sans from every timeline has the same reports since Frisk is ******* time and space for fun

 

[BoastJr]

woah, thats some good counterarguments there.

I suppose I will switch votes here and lean towards disagreeing.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Dread. The reports can track literal time travel and see the future.

What does "track time travel" mean?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I am not saying they worked together dummy. I am saying Sans in this case is basically saying "Every sans has their own reports and our reports showed this and this" Basically talking about how every sans from every timeline has the same reports since Frisk is ******* time and space for fun

He has never reffered to himself in 1st plural that's the thing.

This interpretation is very damn weird even for me.

 

[Spectral69420]

What does "track time travel" mean?

Frisk's saving and loading AFAIK

 

[ShionAH]

What does "track time travel" mean?

It means tracking time travel

He has never reffered to himself in 1st plural that's the thing.

Because this is the only time where he has the end reports

This interpretation is very damn weird even for me.

I think its a way better interpretation than saying “a random character we never see helped sans do it and they were the actual extraordinary genius and not sans who has shown other extraordinary genius feats”

This interpretation is just way safer. (Alphys wasnt the one who helped sans because she has no idea about the “end”)

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I think its a way better interpretation than saying “a random character we never see helped sans do it and they were the actual extraordinary genius and not sans who has shown other extraordinary genius feats”

Alphys displayed such familiarity with sans that she could anticipate his words even before he uttered them.
Doesn't Alphys’ reaction to knowing sans and sans casually brushing it off hint at a potential hidden collaboration or involvement between them?

It's also implied that sans knew about the Amalgamates and even helped care for them

(These lines were added in a patch too)

Plus we already know that Alphys is aware of Alternative Universes, so yeah

 

[ShionAH]

Alphys displayed such familiarity with sans that she could anticipate his words even before he uttered them.
Doesn't Alphys’ reaction to knowing sans and sans casually brushing it off at a potential hidden collaboration or involvement between them?

It's also implied that sans knew about the Amalgamates and even helped care for them

(These lines were added in a patch too)

Plus we already know that Alphys is aware of Alternative Universes, so yeah

They worked together, thats basically canon. But the reports show the “end” which Alphys doesnt know (if she did she would freak out unlike sans and instead of making monsters escape she would try to make frisk quit since she would know at the end Frisk will have range to effect the entire multiverse)

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

They worked together, thats basically canon. But the reports show the “end” which Alphys doesnt know (if she did she would freak out unlike sans and instead of making monsters escape she would try to make frisk quit since she would know at the end Frisk will have range to effect the entire multiverse)

I think that could be explained as Alphys not thinking the Anomaly was Frisk, but ehhh

 

[ShionAH]

I think that could be explained as Alphys not thinking the Anomaly was Frisk, but ehhh

Who else could it be? Alphys is smart enought to connect the dots

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Who else could it be? Alphys is smart enought to connect the dots

Flowey?

 

[ShionAH]

Flowey?

 

[Roachman40]

but I think he still qualifies because of a thing that was weirdly unmentioned in the rating (@Roachman40 you're ******* weird, ngl).

 

[StrymULTRA]

Alphys displayed such familiarity with sans that she could anticipate his words even before he uttered them.
Doesn't Alphys’ reaction to knowing sans and sans casually brushing it off hint at a potential hidden collaboration or involvement between them?

It's also implied that sans knew about the Amalgamates and even helped care for them

(These lines were added in a patch too)

Plus we already know that Alphys is aware of Alternative Universes, so yeah

You could have just linked this lol.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Plus there's also this as evidence that Sans is a scientist.

 

[Roachman40]

• "He reads quantum physics book during his off-time"

There is not any evidence that the book is Sans'
This is deceptive, as inside the Quantum Physics book, there is another joke book
This also doesn't surpass real world's upper limits, not even Genius

This is ultimately an iffy Gifted intelligence feat. Let me already address that intelligence feats don't add up, and multiple gifted feats do not amount to a genius level of intelligence.

• "Sans loves science and that he loves 'outer-spacey science fiction stuff'"

The love of a craft does not mean proficiency at that craft. Of course, we have later feats that prove that Sans has some knowledge on his world's concepts, but this piece of evidence serves no purpose

I agree that these don't justify Extraordinary Genius aye, when I was remaking the profile I thought they where just interesting tidbits to bring up lol

• "Sans seems to have knowledge on the SAVE System, running reports showing the activity of the multitude of timelines, with these reports perhaps even showing what will happen to the timelines by the end of the Genocide Route, that being total destruction"

This is not done by himself, he uses the term "our report".
We also don't know what way they reports these changes, if they have a supercomputer that runs tests, or if he's working with Alphys to do so
Even if provable, the fact he didn't do it by himself makes this feat very lackluster

Just because he didn't do it himself doesn't mean he didn't contribute to it in some way. While we dont exactly know how the reports are created, either it be through some sort of machine or otherwise, him being able to understand and collaborate with presumably alphys on something like this should be a testament of his intelligence in and of itself, especially with him being able to form the conclusion that the game world will end if frisk continues the run just by merely looking at the reports.

Being able to accurately predict the end of existence from reports, the amount of times someone has died by merely looking at their face, and the secret code system as mentioned above by strym, far exceeds what a real world genius could realistically achieve I feel.

 

[Roachman40]

• "Sans has a Workshop located in the basement of him and his brothers house, which contains blueprints of unfamiliar handwriting or symbols which relate to a 'strange machine', presumably referring to the broken machine covered up in the same room. It is unknown what the machine does or its purpose, but it shows the proficiency of Sans craftiness nonetheless"

This is ability in engeneering, but we don't know if Sans made the machine by himself
As we also don't know the purpose of the machine, this shouldn't be awarded as a Genius, or Extraordinary Genius achievement

Its seems he plans on or at least planned on fixing the machine, which implies he knows its components and how to work them to a degree, not sure why he'd have a broken machine is his basement with blueprints seemingly related to such machine if he didnt. While its not enough to support Extraordinary Genius by itself, with everything else put into regard its still definitely worth noting.

 

[Antvasima]

This change seems uncontroversial to apply.

 

[ShionAH]

This change seems uncontroversial to apply.

What? We literally disagree.

Wait you mean adding the correct justifications or you mean the downgrade?

 

[StrymULTRA]

This change seems uncontroversial to apply.

Ant you can't just ignore the rebuttals me and @Roachman40 made, this is NOT uncontroversial.

 

[ShionAH]

Ant you can't just ignore the rebuttals me and @Roachman40 made, this is NOT uncontroversial.

I deserve credit too

 

[StrymULTRA]

I deserve credit too

True

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Overwhelming support. Votes updated.

I'm gonna address all the arguments now, I don't believe any of them justify Extraordinary Genius.

 

[Metalballrun]

Sad for Snas but this makes sense.

 

[ShionAH]

Overwhelming support. Votes updated.

I'm gonna address all the arguments now, I don't believe any of them justify Extraordinary Genius.

Before you do, being smarter than peak human intelligence is extraordinary genius

 

[StrymULTRA]

Overwhelming support. Votes updated.

I'm gonna address all the arguments now, I don't believe any of them justify Extraordinary Genius.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Alright so everyone and their mothers know that Sans can see how many times Chara has died and tried again against him through Time Travel just from seeing the look on their face, knowing exactly how many times they have attempted to do so, plus he can also guess if you have already killed him but you have reset the timeline just to fight him anyway (to see it just click on the Pre-Fight toogle).

He has made a secret codework system which he tells to Frisk to see if they're truly a time traveler like his suspect says, as it bases on the person already telling that secret code without Sans asking first, with that system having also another secret code told after the first one to make sure.

And in his judgement can also tell if Frisk has killed someone on purpose to see what he'd say just from the look on their eyes.

Based on this I think that:

• Extraordinary Genius gets from his ability to read the face expression how many times someone has time traveled in an attempt to defeat him/if they already killed him. I think that's comparable to predicting the future, only that's in reverse given he can see the actions that someone has done in timelines he has not experiences himself (so is a kinda unorthodox equivalent to it, but in reverse, dunno how to exactly say it), I don't think a Genius can do that.
• Clairvoyance should be replaced with Information Analysis.

Addressing this first, let me go through the things that are NOT E.Genius material no matter how much you twist it.

The fact Sans has the social skill to read one's intentions through their gaze is not something that matches the requirements, it's something done in multiple media by multiple people who simply have experience with people with those kind of intentions
He also has the information analysis hax wihch could be the reason of his knowledge.

Creating a secret codework system for time travel when you work with time-related science is not E.Genius material. Just memorize a key phrases, and tell to the person who wishes to prove you that. You don't need a outwordly level of intellect to do that.

The fact Sans knows how many times Chara has died by reading their expression, seeing how they get more frustrated as time goes on, is still not E.Genius, and could be done with Clairvoyance or Information Analysis, two abilities Sans has because of those feats. Honestly a Genius could do that, Sans uses visual cues to achieve these conclusions, and probably planned the fight (given his dialogue after you spare him and attack on the next run)

I don't think any of these achievements justify Extraordinary Genius, especially if we compare this to, again, other Extraordinary Geniuses who can actually predict the future by calculating every outcome. Just knowing "You look frustrated, I think I defeated you X amounts of times", given he already suspected Chara was a time traveller at this point, is just Genius imho.

 

[StrymULTRA]

He also has the information analysis hax wihch could be the reason of his knowledge.

That can be done purely by E. Genius lol.

I rest my case and this useless wall of text of yours ain't changing the objective truth.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Dread. The reports can track literal time travel and see the future.

Read the OP?

• We don't know to what extent Sans is involved in finding the reports
• We don't know how the reports are made. If it's through a machine, Sans doesn't get any credit
• We don't know if Sans makes the reports or just reads them, as he is doing it with someone else.

The reports are not a feat of intelligence, yet. Let's just put him at Genius for now and wait for future chapters of DR (which might touch on this)

That can be done purely by E. Genius lol.

I rest my case and this useless wall of text of yours ain't changing the objective truth.

"can be done" isn't "is done", if you can't prove it, then my point stands that we lack evidence. The fact is that he's indexed as having a supernatural ability

Also, again, Geniuses could do that if they had knowledge on body language and had the same cues and info Sans has.

this useless wall of text of yours ain't changing the objective truth.

Isn't this the kind of behavior you reported me for?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also because seeing events that happened in past timelines from simply, you know, few deductions is something no irl thing can do.

Plus Sans' thing is always accurate, so...

"can be done" isn't "is done", if you can't prove it, then my point stands that we lack evidence. The fact is that he's indexed as having a supernatural ability

Are you sure about that?

 

[ShionAH]

We don't know to what extent Sans is involved in finding the reports

He says “our reports” and in this context he is talking about sans and other sanses from other timelines. The true meaning is “All of the sans had the same reports and our reports show this and this”

• We don't know how the reports are made. If it's through a machine, Sans doesn't get any credit

Why do we assume sans just randomly found a time travel tracking machine? What?

• We don't know if Sans makes the reports or just reads them, as he is doing it with someone else.

He is referencing the other sanses since theres no other character that knows the “end” not even the player knows it. Even then with how much knowledge he has on space time him being a part of this report creation is very normal

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Just because he didn't do it himself doesn't mean he didn't contribute to it in some way. While we dont exactly know how the reports are created, either it be through some sort of machine or otherwise, him being able to understand and collaborate with presumably alphys on something like this should be a testament of his intelligence in and of itself, especially with him being able to form the conclusion that the game world will end if frisk continues the run just by merely looking at the reports.

You're arguing a strawman, I never contested anything written in here.

Expect one thing, "just by merely looking"?
You don't know how long he studied these reports
He is gone for the entire game
Also no evidence he did it by himself either

Being able to accurately predict the end of existence from reports, the amount of times someone has died by merely looking at their face, and the secret code system as mentioned above by strym, far exceeds what a real world genius could realistically achieve I feel.

Reading the reports, and having information on how timelines work like Sans does would allow a Genius to reach the same conclusion, maybe. We lack information on how hollow or detailed these reports are, you can't make an argument that a Genius couldn't do it.

Secret Code Systems exceeds Geniuses?

If you're a Genius, and you have reports on time travelling, making a Secret Code System is so basic.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

He says “our reports” and in this context he is talking about sans and other sanses from other timelines. The true meaning is “All of the sans had the same reports and our reports show this and this”

What? This is not in the game at all, this is an interpretation of the line, we HAVE evidence he knows Alphys, why go the extraordinary route?
I'm not debating personal interpretaiton, Shion

Why do we assume sans just randomly found a time travel tracking machine? What?

He is referencing the other sanses since theres no other character that knows the “end” not even the player knows it. Even then with how much knowledge he has on space time him being a part of this report creation is very normal

You're arguing a strawman, and also arguing a headcanon. I never said he just randomly found one, just that we don't know how these reports came to be

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean me must have participated in those studied himself.

 

[ShionAH]

What? This is not in the game at all, this is an interpretation of the line, we HAVE evidence he knows Alphys, why go the extraordinary route?

Alphys doesnt know about the reports and the “end” or the anomaly. If she did her entire character wouldnt make sense, I explained it above

I'm not debating personal interpretaiton, Shion

Theres no other better interpretation. This one makes the most sense

You're arguing a strawman, and also arguing a headcanon. I never said he just randomly found one, just that we don't know how these reports came to be

If someones reports show something that means they researched it and got these reports as result. I have no idea what you are arguing about right now, you are saying Sans has nothing to do with these reports and just random strange character did it and gave it to sans?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Also because seeing events that happened in past timelines from simply, you know, few deductions is something no irl thing can do.

If time travel was a thing irl and someone studied it, putting a Genius in the same situation as Sans, yes they would.
Also, he doesn't see the events, he concludes the events by already knowing he is facing a time traveller, and by visual cues due to their expression.

If you face a time traveller, and you know how they time travel, and they come at you behaving erradically for no reason, you might conclude they lost to you already. If you're a Genius, you'd catch that immediately. ("Well, this anomaly shouldn't even know I was going to fight them, why are they so mad? Oh, I must've defeated them already")

Are you sure about that?

Red Herring, Junko was predicting multiple outcomes simultaneously and also reading SEVERAL probabilities at the same time while casually, predicting the future like nothing.
I never said analysis can't be done by Extraordinary Geniuses too, just that the level Sans demonstrated isn't even close to E.Geniuses. You seem to underestimate what actual Geniuses on social and scientific fields are capable of.

 

[ShionAH]

If time travel was a thing irl and someone studied it, putting a Genius in the same situation as Sans, yes they would.

That is not how the wiki handles EG.

Also, he doesn't see the events, he concludes the events by already knowing he is facing a time traveller, and by visual cues due to their expression.

If you face a time traveller, and you know how they time travel, and they come at you behaving erradically for no reason, you might conclude they lost to you already. If you're a Genius, you'd catch that immediately. ("Well, this anomaly shouldn't even know I was going to fight them, why are they so mad? Oh, I must've defeated them already")

Yes you may know they got defeated but you CANNOT KNOW HOW MANY TIMES THEY DIED TO YOU

Sans doesnt just say “Oh you lost to me already” no no he literally says “You lost to me 6 times.”

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Alphys doesnt know about the reports and the “end” or the anomaly. If she did her entire character wouldnt make sense, I explained it above

Theres no other better interpretation. This one makes the most sense

The interpretation that Sans is referring to more than one person when using the term "our" is the best interpretation because it requires the least amount of assumptions. Just because we don't know who "our" is doesn't allow you to make conclusion based on personal interpretation.

We're not indexing something that you came up with based on frail evidence

You are saying Sans has nothing to do with these reports

I never said that, Shion.

and just random strange character did it and gave it to sans?

Random?
Strange?
Who used these words? I certainly didn't.
I said we don't know how these reports happen.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If time travel was a thing irl and someone studied it, putting a Genius in the same situation as Sans, yes they would.

Assumption.

Also, he doesn't see the events, he concludes the events by already knowing he is facing a time traveller, and by visual cues due to their expression.

Through E. Genius intelligence, duh.

You seem to underestimate what actual Geniuses on social and scientific fields are capable of.

Because they can't lmao. Why would they be able to, you're just coming off random assumptions to prove your point now.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I can absolutely assure you, there's absolutely no way to gain that info with just visual cue on a person's expression. It's insanely unrealistic. Sans would've need a bunch of tangential evidence to properly follow to that conclusion, which we don't have proof he had nor need. This is a feat of gifted to genius stature at the least, as he just went straight to a conclusion and was basically 100% right. When you also combine it with the fact he just went "ah, you can time travel huh" and can accurately know how many timelines Frisk can go through while fighting just by watching em? Nah, that's 100% extraordinary genius. The guy is literally taking random face expressions and going "hell yeah, I've beat you this many times in other universes"

It's too specific