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never tought of that, that would have been cool lmao, more sans = more jokes
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I'm not actually assuming that happened, I'm only saying there is a vast array of possibilities that could've happened and Sans language doesn't disprove them at all, and thus it isn't a solid feat for extraordinary genius. That has been my stance from the start.
It is the same argument that was made on the last thread. We don't truly know who was involved or how it was created, thus is isn't enough.
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well that makes more sens
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You know, since there's room for a higher rating for sans, we could probably put him at "At least Genius" instead of "Genius"
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the burden of proof is on you to prove that anyone besides the 3 characters shown in the game have any idea about the RESETS and timelines and thus could have taken part in the creation process
the context and the games makes it clear that timelines and RESETS are a laregely unkown concept, a random "our" in sans's dialogue is not evidence against that fact
the possibilities are thus narrowed down to a few individuals who could have helped him, which in no way shape or form invalidates the feat
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likely or possibly is a much better rating tbh
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all them puns gonna be flying as numerous other sans are boned across thousands of other timelines lmao
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King_Dom470
He/Him- 3,202
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Definitely agree with this. No normal genius would be able to read someone’s facial expressions so perfectly to the point of knowing how many times they’ve been killed even though they should have absolutely no idea a reset even occurred.
So yeah I agree with the upgrade just because of this alone
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Yeah IMO I agree with Sans being Extraordinary Genius bro has a scientific background based on what you find in-game ranging from quantum physics book, his workshop, and his affinity for science all in game hell and can even sense your power mf knows it all and can even tell about the timelines of when you did good or bad my stance if likely or just straight up Extraordinary Genius
Bros Harvard material
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Well well well, looks like Sans is one of those folks who needs a Tabber on their intelligence section!
<tabber>
|-|General=
|-|Technology=
|-|Combat=
</tabber>
Just slap one of these puppies on, seperate Sans' Intelligence into three seperate sections, and voila!
See Orgrim Doomhammer's profile for how such a separation works-
<tabber>
|-|General=
|-|Technology=
|-|Combat=
</tabber>
Just slap one of these puppies on, seperate Sans' Intelligence into three seperate sections, and voila!
See Orgrim Doomhammer's profile for how such a separation works-
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Don't think Sans' higher than genius stuff would count as Technology
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I mean it does seperate the iffy ass "our reports" and machine thing feats from the rest
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Having knowledge on real world topics isn't extraordinary genius. It's being gifted in a category of knowledge.Yeah IMO I agree with Sans being Extraordinary Genius bro has a scientific background based on what you find in-game ranging from quantum physics book, his workshop, and his affinity for science all in game hell and can even sense your power mf knows it all and can even tell about the timelines of when you did good or bad my stance if likely or just straight up Extraordinary Genius
Bros Harvard material
Him knowing about timelines is also not extraordinary genius on its own.
"Sense" isn't intellect.
Harvard doesn't have any extraordinary geniuses.
You could easily argue this isn't even intelligence tbh. Being able to read facial expressions and tell what they mean is more of a sensory thing.
If you treat it as intelligence it's still just far too particular to actually grant an entire rating upgrade imo.
The possibilities aren't narrowed down at all.
Let's not forget that the whole "machine" this relies on isn't even mentioned, ever. Or at least, I haven't seen any evidence of it.
Literally everything is an assumption here, and you guys just keep taking the best assumptions to give him the best case for having extraordinary genius intellect.
King_Dom470
He/Him- 3,202
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I doubt that its a sensory thing since at one point sans stops keeping count so id assume that means hes having trouble reading Charas facial expressions at that point which seems like a weird thing to happen if its just an ability
King_Dom470
He/Him- 3,202
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And this shouldn't really effect it no matter how particular it is. if a character has even one extraordinary genius feat they should still be listed as an extraordinary genius, or at the very least "Genius, Likely Extraordinary Genius"
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Disagree.
For example, if someone has extraordinary genius combat feats, such as predicting a thousand moves ahead or something, they still will not be upgraded to EG because it's only in a single, particular subject.
To be extraordinary genius overall you require feats that are more encompassing of your intelligence. Creation and engineering feats are most notable for this since they require a lot of knowledge on multiple different subjects.
Being able to deduce how many times someone has turned back time based on expression is just far too limited in scope in comparison. I would say even most EG combat feats are vastly more impressive than this.
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I mean is it even worth the tabber?
Genius but he has Extraordinary Genius expression reading (which is still iffy)? Lol.
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I meant in general, actually
That's why "Combat" is a section instead of something else
King_Dom470
He/Him- 3,202
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Aint no real world genius gonna tell you how many times youve died just by looking at your face (Not to mention he can also tell if youve killed him aswell AND how many times youve done so)
King_Dom470
He/Him- 3,202
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Also when you kill a weird amount of monsters he figures out that you killed that one monster just to see what his reaction would be and he figures this out pretty much instantly. Or when he figures out that you can reset just by the way you act not via his abilities otherwise he wouldn’t have said "I can tell by the way you acted" instead of something like "I can read your mind/emotions" or whatever
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But yet if he has a background of stuff like that how is knowing timelines and how much power you possess exactly human like?
OK but I'm talking how did he know?
Atleast think on how we can know but we don't know you say that its sense (which is true) but also how does he know about quantum physics and the existence of timelines also knowing how many times you reset?
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Because he reads? And Quantum physics is just a sub-category of physics that also exist in the real world. Knowing about it isn't anything supernatural lol.
Probably just books that fell from the humans.
We don't know.
We also don't know what these reports mean, or what they are, and if they even come from a 'machine'
Too many unknowns and too many assumptions you have to make for it to be EG.
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Hence why I believe likely EG from what I seen though. But still how come does he know on how timelines work and knowing that they exist and just saying he "reads" isnt gonna cut it still while it's obv he has a scientific background and let's not forget on how he messed with flowley causeing him his far share of resets
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I mean I think Sans should be like At least Genius in general, whatever in tech and like, Gifted in combat
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@Antvasima
@Dereck03
@Elizhaa
You all are the ones listed as knowledgeable members on intelligence. What do you guys think?
@Dereck03
@Elizhaa
You all are the ones listed as knowledgeable members on intelligence. What do you guys think?
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No one asked him but RinneItachi thinks that Sans should have "At least Genius, likely Extraordinary Genius".
To give my two cents, yeah I don't think Sans concretely has enough evidence to "prove" that he simply IS Extraordinary Genius. Let's take a look at the descriptions again:
"Genius: Individuals with an exceptional capacity for knowledge and intelligence, usually in one area of varying depth. This level of intellect is the level of real-world geniuses, polymaths, and genuinely extremely prominent intellectuals, and, in the absence of better feats, should be the default intelligence category for fictional characters with exceptional or superhuman intelligence."
"Extraordinary Genius: Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science and who vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits. At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, outperforming supercomputers,[1] and even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations. This is where super scientists of exceptional scientific knowledge begin to appear."
It is strongly suggested that Sans has very advanced knowledge about highly complex physics to a blatantly inhuman degree, and can apply that knowledge in several ways (also to a blatantly inhuman degree), but the issue is that any and all feats he has on this debated level of Extraordinary Genius are very, and I mean VERY vague.
He has a quantum physics book, cool, so we know that he definitely studies quantum physics, that's about it. He can prank people across time and space and it is already a commonly known fact in the fanbase that he does have some degree of in-depth knowledge about those subjects, but what little feats he has in relation to those, are circumstances in which we literally do not know the means of how he performed said feats, and realistically speaking he probably used magic in some of those instances.
The biggest of these vague feats would be the machine in his house. The issue is that in the very same room that the machine is in, we read about other scientists that seemingly worked with Sans, it is STRONGLY implied that Alphys, who is more deserving of the very Extraordinary Genius rating this debate is happening over, helped Sans make the machine, and it is a known fact that they did know each other prior to the events of the game, too. It can also be deduced that Gaster and Sans most likely worked together for similar reasons and the indisputable fact that they had to have had a relation in some way (the name "Gaster" Blaster). And so on.
Even IF Sans had made this machine on his own, which he clearly did not, the fact of the matter is that it literally failed. We know from context clues that this machine was made to go somewhere, and the fact that it was left abandoned in the room we find it in, with Sans literally commenting how he gave up on "going back" means that it didn't work.
Other than that, while Sans has some pretty impressive intelligence feats, none of them are beyond genius level.
Having knowledge about complex physics doesn't equate to Extraordinary Genius, it depends on how that knowledge is used. There is no reason to claim why the greatest minds of our world could not understand the same things as Sans, nor has he applied such knowledge in a way that those people would be unable to, either, it's just too vague.
Any feats related to him reading expressions and creating plans in the case of a time traveler, are sort of watered down when you include that Sans already knows that there is someone on the loose who can reverse time even before the events of the game take place, and furthermore, already knows that it's "Frisk" by this point. He is going into these circumstances with prior knowledge in mind and plans already pre-made, there are plenty of people irl who could do that.
While being able to accurately guess how many times Frisk has died up to 11 times iirc is a crazy analytical feat, even that doesn't necessarily equate to Extraordinary Genius by default, but I would say it's close.
But nonetheless, I still think that a "likely Extraordinary Genius" is fair. Or at the VERY LEAST a "possibly". Again, the reason I don't think he deserves it concretely is just due to the vagueness of his feats. The implications are still there, and in fact Deltarune could potentially give him that rating depending on how events play out. Beyond that, it is suggested that his intelligence is probably on a comparable level to Alphys, especially if they were working together at some point. I have no doubt that Alphys is smarter than Sans, but I do doubt that the gap is some how in two different leagues.
To give my two cents, yeah I don't think Sans concretely has enough evidence to "prove" that he simply IS Extraordinary Genius. Let's take a look at the descriptions again:
"Genius: Individuals with an exceptional capacity for knowledge and intelligence, usually in one area of varying depth. This level of intellect is the level of real-world geniuses, polymaths, and genuinely extremely prominent intellectuals, and, in the absence of better feats, should be the default intelligence category for fictional characters with exceptional or superhuman intelligence."
"Extraordinary Genius: Individuals whose knowledge spreads over multiple fields of science and who vastly surpass the real world's upper human limits. At this level, many are capable of creating extremely advanced futuristic technology, executing complex strategies even under high pressure, outperforming supercomputers,[1] and even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations. This is where super scientists of exceptional scientific knowledge begin to appear."
It is strongly suggested that Sans has very advanced knowledge about highly complex physics to a blatantly inhuman degree, and can apply that knowledge in several ways (also to a blatantly inhuman degree), but the issue is that any and all feats he has on this debated level of Extraordinary Genius are very, and I mean VERY vague.
He has a quantum physics book, cool, so we know that he definitely studies quantum physics, that's about it. He can prank people across time and space and it is already a commonly known fact in the fanbase that he does have some degree of in-depth knowledge about those subjects, but what little feats he has in relation to those, are circumstances in which we literally do not know the means of how he performed said feats, and realistically speaking he probably used magic in some of those instances.
The biggest of these vague feats would be the machine in his house. The issue is that in the very same room that the machine is in, we read about other scientists that seemingly worked with Sans, it is STRONGLY implied that Alphys, who is more deserving of the very Extraordinary Genius rating this debate is happening over, helped Sans make the machine, and it is a known fact that they did know each other prior to the events of the game, too. It can also be deduced that Gaster and Sans most likely worked together for similar reasons and the indisputable fact that they had to have had a relation in some way (the name "Gaster" Blaster). And so on.
Even IF Sans had made this machine on his own, which he clearly did not, the fact of the matter is that it literally failed. We know from context clues that this machine was made to go somewhere, and the fact that it was left abandoned in the room we find it in, with Sans literally commenting how he gave up on "going back" means that it didn't work.
Other than that, while Sans has some pretty impressive intelligence feats, none of them are beyond genius level.
Having knowledge about complex physics doesn't equate to Extraordinary Genius, it depends on how that knowledge is used. There is no reason to claim why the greatest minds of our world could not understand the same things as Sans, nor has he applied such knowledge in a way that those people would be unable to, either, it's just too vague.
Any feats related to him reading expressions and creating plans in the case of a time traveler, are sort of watered down when you include that Sans already knows that there is someone on the loose who can reverse time even before the events of the game take place, and furthermore, already knows that it's "Frisk" by this point. He is going into these circumstances with prior knowledge in mind and plans already pre-made, there are plenty of people irl who could do that.
While being able to accurately guess how many times Frisk has died up to 11 times iirc is a crazy analytical feat, even that doesn't necessarily equate to Extraordinary Genius by default, but I would say it's close.
But nonetheless, I still think that a "likely Extraordinary Genius" is fair. Or at the VERY LEAST a "possibly". Again, the reason I don't think he deserves it concretely is just due to the vagueness of his feats. The implications are still there, and in fact Deltarune could potentially give him that rating depending on how events play out. Beyond that, it is suggested that his intelligence is probably on a comparable level to Alphys, especially if they were working together at some point. I have no doubt that Alphys is smarter than Sans, but I do doubt that the gap is some how in two different leagues.
ShionAH
He/Him- 15,073
- 3,867
- Thread starter
- #74
This is fair expect for Alphys being way smarter than sans. The reports are made by sans and “someone else” he didnt have help from Alphys because Alphys would panic if he had the reports unlike Sans
Which is why I think Sans deserves the rating, whats ur opinion on that one?
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I said that Sans is likely comparable to Alphys which is why he should have a "possibly" or "likely" rating, I literally said that it's very unrealistic to say that Alphys is in a whole league above him.
The "reports" alone not only do not warrant Extraordinary on their own in the first place, but regardless of WHO helped him, someone helped Sans, too. It's actually suggested that the bulk of his scientific "feats" that could even possibly warrant an Extraordinary Genius were with the help of fellow scientists in his group. Among all of his other feats, this is one of his vaguest ones, too. Also, we don't know if Alphys would panic, we literally have no idea how she would react to that information. Asgore knows that the human can rewind time after death and it doesn't seem to really bother him.
I don't think that's enough reason, still.
ShionAH
He/Him- 15,073
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- Thread starter
- #76
They do actually. I dont think any normal genius can get reports that track timetravel, scan timelines, see time erasures and more.
Which changes nothing like I said, since Sans took credit he would scale to the feat
Alphys saw us killing monsters and instantly panicked, tried to save everyone and forgot to warn Asgore. Imagine if she learned the human was heading to destroy the entirety of the Undertale multiverse. Alphys would have gone crazy, thats the point. Sans is the only character we know that can take this information and be cool with it
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I don't see anything here that supports Extraordinary Genius, we don't know how Sans gets those reports, he literally could be using a machine that wasn't even built by himself to read those reports.
The other feats aren't Extraordinary Genius in the slightest. We don't know what the machine in his house does, and we don't know if he built by himself, all we know he failed to repair it, which is an anti-feat against this Extraordinary Genius rating.
The other feats aren't Extraordinary Genius in the slightest. We don't know what the machine in his house does, and we don't know if he built by himself, all we know he failed to repair it, which is an anti-feat against this Extraordinary Genius rating.
ShionAH
He/Him- 15,073
- 3,867
- Thread starter
- #78
Refir. I literally explained why this is wrong in the OP. Please answer that instead of repeating yourself.
You must be kidding. The expression feat is easily extraordinary
No its not. Thats not how you scale intelligence. We dont know the machine, just like you said it. It could possibly be a 2-B machine which would require a Supergenius which means Sans shouldnt be able to repair it anyway.
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I don't see why this lasted any longer than 5 messages of "agreed" and getting applied, because this seems very obvious to me
if he is able to say "I killed you exactly this many times in other timelines that I have no way of seeing, solely because you're looking at me with a certain kind of frown" that alone would be an extraordinary genius without question
we've given more over less
if he is able to say "I killed you exactly this many times in other timelines that I have no way of seeing, solely because you're looking at me with a certain kind of frown" that alone would be an extraordinary genius without question
we've given more over less
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That kind of feat is too particular for an overall intellect upgrade in the same way most feats of combat intelligence are.I don't see why this lasted any longer than 5 messages of "agreed" and getting applied, because this seems very obvious to me
if he is able to say "I killed you exactly this many times in other timelines that I have no way of seeing, solely because you're looking at me with a certain kind of frown" that alone would be an extraordinary genius without question
we've given more over less
And it isn't even that impressive in the grand scheme of things.
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