Sans Intelligence Downgrade

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

That is not how the wiki handles EG.

It absolutely is, otherwise any character with fictional knowledge would be EG.

Yes you may know they got defeated but you CANNOT KNOW HOW MANY TIMES THEY DIED TO YOU

Sans doesnt just say “Oh you lost to me already” no no he literally says “You lost to me 6 times.”

A Genius could given all the information Sans has.

If a Genius has access to the following information:

• Knowledge on body language. Achievable irl
• Knowledge on the reports. They could get it in-universe.
• Knowledge on the fact the opponent is a time traveller. From the reports

Then he could make deductions with upmost accuracy.

 

[ShionAH]

I can absolutely assure you, there's absolutely no way to gain that info with just visual cue on a person's expression. It's insanely unrealistic. Sans would've need a bunch of tangential evidence to properly follow to that conclusion, which we don't have proof he had nor need. This is a feat of gifted to genius stature at the least, as he just went straight to a conclusion and was basically 100% right. When you also combine it with the fact he just went "ah, you can time travel huh" and can accurately know how many timelines Frisk can go through while fighting just by watching em? Nah, that's 100% extraordinary genius. The guy is literally taking random face expressions and going "hell yeah, I've beat you this many times in other universes"

It's too specific

Plus he also knows how many times you killed him or if you fell for his trick

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I can absolutely assure you

You can't.

Do you possess knowledge on Body Language?
Do you possess any capacity that matches real world geniuses, and can you make an educated guess on how a Genius with these skills would do in a situation with the info access Sans has (that don't depend on intellect)?

No. So you can't assure anything, you CAN gain information based on visual cues and previous knowledge acquired, we literally do that irl, you're just making an incorrect statement with confidence.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Do you possess knowledge on Body Language?

I do, actually

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

When you also combine it with the fact he just went "ah, you can time travel huh"

HUH?

No, he got that from reports with someone else, this is NOT a feat of intelligence, it shouldn't be taken into account.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I do, actually

Doubt it.

The fact you can literally find out about a person's personality trait through their gaze.

^
A Genius with knowledge on these subjects and with the same info Sans has could make deductions, based on how pissed you look, how you behave.

 

[ShionAH]

HUH?

No, he got that from reports with someone else, this is NOT a feat of intelligence, it shouldn't be taken into account.

For the last time “someone else” thing makes no sense story wise. Theres no one else in the underground that knows the “end” not even the player knows it.
Him referring to other sanses makes the most sense

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Assumption.

Through E. Genius intelligence, duh.

You don't need to have that level of intelligence to reach the conclusion that a time traveller who shouldn't even know you were gonna fight them (the first time) were defeated by you.

Because they can't lmao. Why would they be able to, you're just coming off random assumptions to prove your point now.

We're going with the classic dismissive attitude. Assuming you require extraordinary genius intelligence can also be said to be an assumption

Give the Genius the same tools and information as Sans have, knowledge on body language, then you'd have pretty much the same thing

 

[StrymULTRA]

Assumption.

I rest my case.

No ******* way you can deduce someone's being able to time travel, the exact amount of times they did trying to beat you but dying or the very fact that they have already killed you.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

For the last time “someone else” thing makes no sense story wise. Theres no one else in the underground that knows the “end” not even the player knows it.
Him referring to other sanses makes the most sense

We're not using headcanon, Shion. Stop insisting on this.

We see 120 people out of 15000 that exist underground, the fact Sans did the reports with more than just himself is a fact by the use of the term "our". I'm not entertaining this any longer.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I rest my case.

No ******* way you can deduce someone's being able to time travel

He never deduced that. It's literally stated he had a report on the anomaly time travelling before the fight, you are actually making an assumption here.
Also chill on the behavior, Strym

he exact amount of times they did trying to beat you but dying or the very fact that they have already killed you.

You can, based on visual cues, behavior and being very smart, Genius in fact.

Too bad.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Doubt it.

That's okay!

 

[ShionAH]

You are really overestimating geniuses and underestimating sans

Anyways we all voted so lets wait for other staff also I dont think Ants vote should be counted, he literally ignored us and most likely doesnt even know undertale enough to agree.

 

[StrymULTRA]

He never deduced that. It's literally stated he had a report on the anomaly time travelling before the fight, you are actually making an assumption here.

"that look on your face tells me"

He does it from just reading your face, you're ignoring evidence rn.

You are really overestimating geniuses and underestimating sans

Fr, this website seems to have a hate boner against the verse now, good things never last :<

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Fr, this website seems to have a hate boner against the verse now, good things never last :<

well deserved fr fr

But yeah, OP at the very least is correct, those ain't EG feats.

However, agreed with Strym's new justifications to replace em.

 

[StrymULTRA]

well deserved fr fr

Man I did a Sans-like pun

 

[ShionAH]

well deserved fr fr

But yeah, OP at the very least is correct, those ain't EG feats.

However, agreed with Strym's new justifications to replace em.

They should still stay as supporting evidence I feel like

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

You are really overestimating geniuses and underestimating sans

And you were fabricating conclusions on straightforward lines.

"Our" reports already exempts Sans as taking the full credit for the report. Also, again, red herring as we don't know how these reports even pop up. If it's done through a machine, Sans' credit is not EG at all.

"that look on your face tells me"

He does it from just reading your face, you're ignoring evidence rn.

"I suspected something like this"

He already had suspicion on the fact you're a time traveller before you faced him, and there is no reason for these reports to only exist in the Genocide Route as the anomaly acts in every timeline.

Fr, this website seems to have a hate boner against the verse now, good things never last :<

Are you seriously complaining about me saying Sans should be a Genius until further proof is found?

 

[ImmortalDread]

They should still stay as supporting evidence I feel like

I disagree

once again reading books or loving science ain't a feat. Reports are also insufficient, the only thing is the new feats and the machine that are relevant.

 

[StrymULTRA]

"I suspected something like this"

He already had suspicion on the fact you're a time traveller before you faced him, and there is no reason for these reports to only exist in the Genocide Route as the anomaly acts in every timeline.

Because the behavior straight-up confirms it in this case lmao.

Are you seriously complaining about me saying Sans should be a Genius until further proof is found?

There's already further proof, but you're being so overly nitpicking that is annoying rn.

 

[ShionAH]

"Our" reports already exempts Sans as taking the full credit for the report.

The “Our” can be taken in many different ways so its not a good debunk

Also, again, red herring as we don't know how these reports even pop up. If it's done through a machine, Sans' credit is not EG at all.

The machine must have been built by Sans or he should atleast have some kind of work in it at the very least. Its not like it fell from the sky

 

[StrymULTRA]

The machine must have been built by Sans or he should atleast have some kind of work in it at the very least. Its not like it fell from the sky

^So much this, thank you for being actually reasonable.

 

[ShionAH]

I disagree once again reading books or loving science ain't a feat.

Its an intelligence feat for Above Average if we assume he understands them

Reports are also insufficient, the only thing is the new feats and the machine that are relevant.

Reports are not insufficient, Topaz is just being nitpicky

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Because the behavior straight-up confirms it in this case lmao.

"You always behave like you know what's going to happen"
Combine with the fact he has report of time travelling activity, and this becomes lackluster, he didn't conclude that based on just looking into your eyes like you said.

There's already further proof, but you're being so overly nitpicking that is annoying rn.

What you considered proof is Genius material, not EG. Everytime I question anything you do, I'm being "overly nitpicking" and "annoying", can you change your tactic at dismissing my point?

 

[ShionAH]

Anyways we all voted so lets wait for other staff also I dont think Ants vote should be counted, he literally ignored us and most likely doesnt even know undertale enough to agree.

^

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ant did not even read the arguments. The vote being counted should be counted as a joke at best.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Why am I in disagree when I straight up agreed that the stuff mentioned in the OP is not enough for EG?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

The “Our” can be taken in many different ways so its not a good debunk

Least amount of assumptions, "our" means "Me and someone else".

The machine must have been built by Sans or he should atleast have some kind of work in it at the very least. Its not like it fell from the sky

No one is saying it fell from the sky, stop with this strawman!

No, Sans doesn't have to be involved into building the hypothetical machine, it could be done by literally any previous scientist, or someone he works with.
The point is, WE DON'T KNOW
Do I have to quote EVERY SINGLE TIME, I say we shouldn't reach a conclusion because we lack knowledge on the specifics????

We also don't know what way they reports these changes

• We don't know to what extent Sans is involved in finding the reports
• We don't know how the reports are made. If it's through a machine, Sans doesn't get any credit
• We don't know if Sans makes the reports or just reads them, as he is doing it with someone else.

just that we don't know how these reports came to be

I said we don't know how these reports happen.

So STOP, stop behaving like I made any sort of conclusion on this matter, when all I did is debunk the idea that you COULD reach a conclusion based on ONE line that just states the report exists and that Sans is involved in it.
You are concluding Sans is the sole participant on these reports even when he referred to the reports as a plural ownership.
You are concluding the reports are made by a machine built by Sans even when we have no knowledge on it.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Why am I in disagree when I straight up agreed that the stuff mentioned in the OP is not enough for EG?

Because the OP aims to remove the EG rating entirely, should I put you in neutral then, since you agree with the arguments, but not the conclusion?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Because the OP aims to remove the EG rating entirely, should I put you in neutral then, since you agree with the arguments, but not the conclusion?

I'm in agreement with the OP. EG should be removed based on those.

The new stuff brought requires a separate vote altogether.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Why do I feel like this will be moved to a Staff Only thread?

 

[ShionAH]

Least amount of assumptions, "our" means "Me and someone else".

No one is saying it fell from the sky, stop with this strawman!

No, Sans doesn't have to be involved into building the hypothetical machine, it could be done by literally any previous scientist, or someone he works with.
The point is, WE DON'T KNOW
Do I have to quote EVERY SINGLE TIME, I say we shouldn't reach a conclusion because we lack knowledge on the specifics????






So STOP, stop behaving like I made any sort of conclusion on this matter, when all I did is debunk the idea that you COULD reach a conclusion based on ONE line that just states the report exists and that Sans is involved in it.
You are concluding Sans is the sole participant on these reports even when he referred to the reports as a plural ownership.
You are concluding the reports are made by a machine built by Sans even when we have no knowledge on it.

You said “our” means sans doesnt take full credit
Which means HE DID HAVE CREDIT you are literally contradicting yourself

 

[ImmortalDread]

@The_Yellow_Topaz, it is necessary to ensure the vote tally is updated with accuracy. Some staff members are in agreement with the underlying principle put forth by OP, which is permissible to an extent. However, recent developments have presented new feats that have garnered considerable favor.

To address this, it is advisable to divide the votes into two separate categories:

• One for the OP's position
• and another for Strym's post.

As I personally remain impartial regarding Strym's post, it is worth noting that Lephy, for instance, agrees with your post but also acknowledges the value of Strym's suggestion as a potential compromise or as an opportunity to replace the old invalid feats.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You said “our” means sans doesnt take full credit
Which means HE DID HAVE CREDIT you are literally contradicting yourself

Topaz do be saying frfr that Sans did not contribute and just watched without doing anything lmfao.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

You said “our” means sans doesnt take full credit
Which means HE DID HAVE CREDIT you are literally contradicting yourself

I never said he didn't have any credit at all.

You're twisting my words so much, this is tiring.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Topaz do be saying frfr that Sans did not contribute and just watched without doing anything lmfao.

LOOK AT THIS.

You guys are actively LYING about what I'm arguing! HOW CAN I NOT REPORT THIS KIND OF STUFF?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

@The_Yellow_Topaz, it is necessary to ensure the vote tally is updated with accuracy. Some staff members are in agreement with the underlying principle put forth by OP, which is permissible to an extent. However, recent developments have presented new feats that have garnered considerable favor.

To address this, it is advisable to divide the votes into two separate categories:

• One for the OP's position
• and another for Strym's post.

As I personally remain impartial regarding Strym's post, it is worth noting that Lephy, for instance, agrees with your post but also acknowledges the value of Strym's suggestion as a potential compromise or as an opportunity to replace the old invalid feats.

Nah. My OP's intentions are to remove these justification, Strym can make his own thread to add these new justifications if he so wishes, I am not obligated to accomodate them if I don't want to.

 

[ShionAH]

LOOK AT THIS.

You guys are actively LYING about what I'm arguing! HOW CAN I NOT REPORT THIS KIND OF STUFF?

You told me you think sans is not EG because “He could have just read the reports thats not EG” which means you think sans just sat and watched the research and at the last second read the reports and took credit. This argument doesnt hold up

 

[StrymULTRA]

You will given it's relevant to the argument in hand.

Just because it debunks you it does not mean it should be ignored.

 

[Therefir]

Nothing Strym has posted here supports Extraordinary Genius in my opinion, we know nothing about those reports, how he gets them, and we don't even know if he is using a machine or if he even build it himself (note how he says "Our reports" instead of "My reports").

Also, Sans observes how frustrated Chara seems every time they get killed, so it's not as if Chara is hiding their anger, Sans is simply insightful enough to notice based on that frustration how many times Chara has died, not enough for Extraordinary Genius.

Am I missing another feat?