Saitama vs Goku

[RedReaper616]

Garou tried to hide from Saitama at a random spot on the moon that they were fighting on, but Saitama was able to find him instantly by darting around in all directions thanks to the speed boost AD gave him. Saitama can also completely ruin Goku's sense of direction with his superior LS, preventing him from escaping.

1) Garou’s hiding and Goku’s presence concealment are completely different, though? Like, when Goku hides almost everything and anything about him becomes imperceptible, even when he’s literally in a mild size tournament arena sharing the same physical space as you. Not saying Saitama couldn’t just nuke the whole area anyway, but he wouldn’t find Goku—He’d just use an AOE so big Goku hiding doesn’t matter.

2) Saitama’s speed is irrelevant due to Instant Transmission. Unless Saitama can become infinitely fast, Goku will always be superior to him in speed thanks to being able to simulate and operate in Zero Time thanks to how Toei IT works. And while you could try to argue that Saitama could just become so fast that Goku simply couldn’t activate it in time, he has a whole IT battle with Cooler, where he literally reacts to attacks thrown in IT (I.e. at Zero Time) and activates the move to evade it, with them fighting in and out of the Dimension. I just doubt he could pull it off. The best thing Saitama could do to get around this is time travel to the moment before Goku casts and punches him, but that brings more issues for Saitama (how time resolves itself for him).

Also, going in and out of the dimension would allow Goku to get out of escape blocking Saitama does by manipulating the environment.

 

[Robo432343]

so what stops saitama from copying instant transmittion

 

[Kachon123]

1) Garou’s hiding and Goku’s presence concealment are completely different, though? Like, when Goku hides almost everything and anything about him becomes imperceptible, even when he’s literally in a mild size tournament arena sharing the same physical space as you. Not saying Saitama couldn’t just nuke the whole area anyway, but he wouldn’t find Goku—He’d just use an AOE so big Goku hiding doesn’t matter.

Saitama didn't sense Garou so Goku concealing his presence doesn't really mean anything. Saitama literally just ran around randomly until he found Garou, but because of his sheer speed it seemed instant. The same will happen here - the moment Goku uses instant transmission, Saitama would dart around the planet until he happens across Goku.

 

[RedReaper616]

Saitama didn't sense Garou so Goku concealing his presence doesn't really mean anything. Saitama literally just ran around randomly until he found Garou, but because of his sheer speed....

That's what I mean. Like, when Goku conceals his presence you can't see or hear him until he stops or you have the skill to see through it. Even when he's literally right in front of you (Goku V Piccolo Jr in the 23rd WT). Meaning Saitama could run around the planet and he wouldn't "Find" Goku. Because for him Goku is essentially impossible to find. Though, again, Saitama could just punch really hard and Goku erasing his presence wouldn't matter just off the fact Saitama has insane AOE.

... it seemed instant.

This doesn't matter, because he's going to "seem" instant, whereas IT makes Goku actually Instant.

The same will happen here - the moment Goku uses instant transmission, Saitama would dart around the planet until he happens across Goku.

That's...not how it works. When (Toei) Goku casts IT, he enters a different dimension. One that transcends space and time. If Goku attacks within this Dimension or leaves through it, Saitama would not be able to find him. He could only do so once he reappears in normal reality, and given he can spam it back to back at such a speed he can react to Cooler attacking in Zero Time/Instant Transmission (meaning within that same moment/no time passing), that in itself isn't happening either unless Goku just outright stops chaining teleports. Essentially, once Goku starts with IT, unless he stops, he's going to be superior to Saitama in speed and stay that way until he runs out of gas or just gives up his speed advantage. This also means Saitama just doesn't get much (if any) time to grow in strength after that. Its an unpredecented speed advantage Saitama can't really deal with. Especially since Goku can attack mid IT, meaning it gives Goku opportunties to utilize his abilities (if any even work on the Caped Baldy).

 

[Robo432343]

goku needs a ki signature for IT anyway

 

[Kachon123]

That's...not how it works. When (Toei) Goku casts IT, he enters a different dimension. One that transcends space and time. If Goku attacks within this Dimension or leaves through it, Saitama would not be able to find him. He could only do so once he reappears in normal reality, and given he can spam it back to back at such a speed he can react to Cooler attacking in Zero Time/Instant Transmission (meaning within that same moment/no time passing), that in itself isn't happening either unless Goku just outright stops chaining teleports. Essentially, once Goku starts with IT, unless he stops, he's going to be superior to Saitama in speed and stay that way until he runs out of gas or just gives up his speed advantage. This also means Saitama just doesn't get much (if any) time to grow in strength after that. Its an unpredecented speed advantage Saitama can't really deal with. Especially since Goku can attack mid IT, meaning it gives Goku opportunties to utilize his abilities (if any even work on the Caped Baldy).

Wait until this dude finds out about Empty Void and hyperspace gates

 

[RedReaper616]

Wait until this dude finds out about Empty Void and hyperspace gates

I mean yes, they exist, but as far as I'm aware Saitama has never demonstrated awareness or sensory to a Dimension that transcends space and time that allows that character to move in Zero Time. Even if he could SENSE and HIT Goku, it doesn't matter unless Saitama literally has infinite speed to act on that sensory, since again--IT allows the user to simulate fighting in Zero Time continuously.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

This is a cope.

Cope is you people implying Saitama will use the same AD boost he got which was attributed specifically to his intended emotions after seeing garou killed to a 1v1

The implication that Goku who can detect his PL, won't end the fight before Saitama jumps him, is cope

I see people talking about Goku using the spirit bomb, as against, knocking Saitama's lights out in ssj before he's surpassed, especially as he can tell how strong as he's getting in real time

 

[MrTayman616]

Cope is you people implying Saitama will use the same AD boost he got which was attributed specifically to his intended emotions after seeing garou killed to a 1v1

Saitama has passive AD. Emotions just makes it faster than it already is.

The implication that Goku who can detect his PL, won't end the fight before Saitama jumps him, is cope

It would be over the moment it starts. The difference between Goku's base and normal is 50x. even without Saitama's AD, the difference between him and ssj is lower than 8x.

That's what I mean. Like, when Goku conceals his presence you can't see or hear him until he stops or you have the skill to see through it. Even when he's literally right in front of you (Goku V Piccolo Jr in the 23rd WT). Meaning Saitama could run around the planet and he wouldn't "Find" Goku. Because for him Goku is essentially impossible to find. Though, again, Saitama could just punch really hard and Goku erasing his presence wouldn't matter just off the fact Saitama has insane AOE.

This doesn't matter, because he's going to "seem" instant, whereas IT makes Goku actually Instant.

That's...not how it works. When (Toei) Goku casts IT, he enters a different dimension. One that transcends space and time. If Goku attacks within this Dimension or leaves through it, Saitama would not be able to find him. He could only do so once he reappears in normal reality, and given he can spam it back to back at such a speed he can react to Cooler attacking in Zero Time/Instant Transmission (meaning within that same moment/no time passing), that in itself isn't happening either unless Goku just outright stops chaining teleports. Essentially, once Goku starts with IT, unless he stops, he's going to be superior to Saitama in speed and stay that way until he runs out of gas or just gives up his speed advantage. This also means Saitama just doesn't get much (if any) time to grow in strength after that. Its an unpredecented speed advantage Saitama can't really deal with. Especially since Goku can attack mid IT, meaning it gives Goku opportunties to utilize his abilities (if any even work on the Caped Baldy).

Don't remember the reason but... why would Saitama need to found Goku again? Also when did that Cooler moment happen?

 

[MountainWine]

Saitama’s win con seems to be base around his AD catching up to KK and SS. However that would only occur if Goku were to tear apart and kill Genos. Resulting in Saitama surging with emotions. The match doesn’t have such conditions. I don’t recall him having any other AD situations that multiplied his power over tens of times.

Goku would first engage Saitama with caution after sensing his higher power. He’d outskill Saitama but deal no real damage. However I believe he ends it once he starts stacking KK or SS. Both grant him superior speed and AP. Allowing blitzs and possibly a one shot.

 

[MountainWine]

Just took a look at Saitama’s page. The value listed for his AP is actually 36 ZettaFoes not 72. The 72 ZettaFoes value was a shared feat.

 

[MrTayman616]

Saitama’s win con seems to be base around his AD catching up to KK and SS. However that would only occur if Goku were to tear apart and kill Genos. Resulting in Saitama surging with emotions. The match doesn’t have such conditions. I don’t recall him having any other AD situations that multiplied his power over tens of times.

Saitama's AD is always active. Emotions makes it faster, but not necessarily the death of everyone.

58 times Growth is based on a graph without a timeframe. His AD is superior to Garou's who has grown from Mountain level to Continent level within milliseconds.

Saitama has Immortality type 2 that comes with Explosive Growth as well. Explosive Growth that huge enough to one shot the enemy who gives you the damage to begin with.

 

[Robo432343]

saitama copies everything
its gokuver...

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

I'd go with Saitama fra.

Also, strange Saitama only scales to half the feat. His durability scales to the entire feat (or so seems to imply the durability section, since he tanked the entire collision), and his punches damaged Garou, who did the same.

 

[Farfetchedx]

Just took a look at Saitama’s page. The value listed for his AP is actually 36 ZettaFoes not 72. The 72 ZettaFoes value was a shared feat.

Its accepted that they scale to the full explosion due to tanking it. The profile is just outdated

Also, strange Saitama only scales to half the feat. His durability scales to the entire feat (or so seems to imply the durability section, since he tanked the entire collision), and his punches damaged Garou, who did the same.

He scales to it fully. Profile is just outdated

 

[MountainWine]

Saitama's AD is always active. Emotions makes it faster, but not necessarily the death of everyone.

58 times Growth is based on a graph without a timeframe. His AD is superior to Garou's who has grown from Mountain level to Continent level within milliseconds.

No actual given value though. Don’t know what to say but that it occurred after Genos’s death. I’m not gonna agree with a tens of times multiplication without stated values.

Yes Saitama possesses a better AD rate. However it was under different conditions. Garou went through such high rates of AD due to immense stress and life threatening situations. You’d have to prove Saitama could do the same while being casual. Nearly every single opponent he’s fought was immensely weaker than him. He has no other instances of exponentially increasing his AP and speed like when he fought Garou.

From mountain to continent is a tens of millions of times multiplication. Go get the multiplication approved and make this a stomp.

 

[Robo432343]

uh its grace

 

[noninho]

imma just leave my saitama FRA here to be involved

 

[MountainWine]

Wouldn’t this be a stomp if Goku stands no chance even after going SS multiplied by KK?

Saitama would be able to copy just about anything Goku pulls out. Goku’s only saving grace is his higher speed and AP. However everyone is super convinced Saitama will near instantly overwhelm that too.

No wincons for Goku means it’s a stomp?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Wouldn’t this be a stomp if Goku stands no chance even after going SS multiplied by KK?

That'd kill Goku before he could even attack, probably

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

It ain't a stomp. Goku could do this:

I don't think it'd be in-character for Goku to instantly bust out Super Saiyan and one shot like people are suggesting? Goku seeks out good fights just like Saitama.

I also don't remember any feats that make Goku's AD as good as Saitama's, either. Afaik he has to recover from a grievous injury to gain notable jumps in power.

If it was in character for him to atomize characters first second on the fight, so it is a fair match.

It is just Goku's character which makes him lose.

 

[noninho]

It ain't a stomp. Goku could do this:

If it was in character for him to atomize characters first second on the fight, so it is a fair match.

It is just Goku's character which makes him lose.

if he wouldn't use it, ig its a stomp...
then BL both

 

[MountainWine]

That'd kill Goku before he could attack, probably

It definitely would. Which is why I brought it up. If Goku can’t win in the AP and speed department even with a suicidal move, then this is clearly a stomp.

 

[RedReaper616]

Saitama DOES have growth outside of the emotions boost. It’s specifically enough to allow him to one punch himself from yesterday (as said by the Audio Story) when he fights his duplicate that is exactly equal to himself from the previous day. It’s just not a value you can utilize/apply on a profile because the “one-shot difference” of 7.5x is strictly only allowed for Versus threads and not allowed for use in trying to calc strength on a profile. Hence why it’s not there.

I’m not going to deny Saitama grows normally. I just think that growth would only be as great as the Garou fight if Goku did the thing everyone is saying he wouldn’t do—Start the fight stronger than Saitama and give him a surge of emotions from a good fight.

What seems more likely to me is Goku probes at base, and sensing Saitama is stronger than that and feeling how skilled Saitama is (either not at all or very with Garou’s Martial Arts, which he’d then copy), he’ll push himself to SSJ and fight to the finish. Probably not kill, but intending to win—As he did against Pikkon, Super Android 13, Cell, and Metal Cooler. Especially once he becomes aware of his growth in power.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

if he wouldn't use it, ig its a stomp...
then BL both

A stomp occurs when a character has no way to defeat the other.

Goku has ways to kill Saitama, he just won't use it before it's too late, therefore, it's not a stomp.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Saitama DOES have growth outside of the emotions boost. It’s specifically enough to allow him to one punch himself from yesterday (as said by the Audio Story) when he fights his duplicate that is exactly equal to himself from the previous day. It’s just not a value you can utilize/apply on a profile because the “one-shot difference” of 7.5x is strictly only allowed for Versus threads. Hence why it’s not there.

That's not accepted, btw. Pretty sure the last CRT regarding that discarded it as a machine failure

 

[RedReaper616]

That's not accepted, btw. Pretty sure the last CRT regarding that discarded it as a machine failure

That’s silly. The story only has one “error” the whole story, with Metal Bat, and it’s specifically due to how his “powers” work. And he’s the only one who even says or recognizes such. Everyone else (even the highly skilled) saw no issue. There’s no reason to assume this would apply to Saitama’s duplicate.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Tbh I agree with you that given the recent events Saitama having that insane AD does not seem that strange.

Anyway, if you want to discuss people about it better do it in the discussion thread or create a CRT about it to prevent derailing this thread

 

[MountainWine]

It ain't a stomp. Goku could do this:

If it was in character for him to atomize characters first second on the fight, so it is a fair match.

It is just Goku's character which makes him lose.

However the Saitama supporters are suggesting even starting off with SS would make no difference due to passive AD that would quickly catch up and Immortality type 2.

If everything Goku does can’t give him even one win con but would make Saitama stronger (copying KK, IT, Ki manipulation, and speeding up his AD), then this is clearly a stomp.

 

[MrTayman616]

Yes Saitama possesses a better AD rate. However it was under different conditions. Garou went through such high rates of AD due to immense stress and life threatening situations

It happened while Fighting against Flashy Flash and Black Sperm. He wasn't in a near death situation or anything close. he was fighting against people comparable to him. Like Goku who has comparable values with Saitama here. Which would also cause Saitama to show emotions in this fight as well.

In hard situations, Immortality type 2 enters and Explosive growth comes with it. Which is shown to be enough to casually one shot the person who give the damage.

 

[Hasty12345]

Goku FRA

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

However the Saitama supporters are suggesting even starting off with SS would make no difference due to passive AD that would quickly catch up and Immortality type 2.

If everything Goku does can’t give him even one win con but would make Saitama stronger (copying KK, IT, Ki manipulation, and speeding up his AD), then this is clearly a stomp.

Goku could win if he started with a kame hame ha strong enough to entirely atomize Saitama's body so Immortality type 2 doesn't work.

But, as I said, Goku does not do that in character. He has winconditions, unless you think all people voting him are just hypocrite due to voting for a character who can't win; it's just Saitama wins more times than not.

 

[MountainWine]

It happened while Fighting against Flashy Flash and Black Sperm. He wasn't in a near death situation or anything close. he was fighting against people comparable to him. Like Goku who has comparable values with Saitama here. Which would also cause Saitama to show emotions in this fight as well.

In hard situations, Immortality type 2 enters and Explosive growth comes with it. Which is shown to be enough to casually one shot the person who give the damage.

I don’t recall Garou going from 7A to 6A against either of those two. Pretty sure it was against Sage Centipede.

So this is a stomp

 

[MrTayman616]

I don’t recall Garou going from 7A to 6A against either of those two. Pretty sure it was against Sage Centipede.

At the end of the fight against Black Sperm, Garou grows enough to blitz and one shot him, after that, Sage centipede appears and Garou is already capable of damaging him.

 

[MountainWine]

Goku could win if he started with a kame hame ha strong enough to entirely atomize Saitama's body so Immortality type 2 doesn't work.

But, as I said, Goku does not do that in character. He has winconditions, unless you think all people voting him are just hypocrite due to voting for a character who can't win; it's just Saitama wins more times than not.

I agree.

Again the other supporters are saying otherwise. Goku doesn’t have a 7.5 x AP/Dura gap even in SS. His attacks won’t obliterate Saitama. Meaning Immortality 2 kicks in. AD will only further open up that gap.

What other conditions? He has only one and even that isn’t agreed upon by the OPM supporters. Making it a stomp.

This wouldn’t be a stomp if it’s universally agreed upon that Goku has at least one win con. However the opposition doesn’t even agree upon that.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Goku doesn’t have a 7.5 x AP/Dura gap even in SS. His attacks won’t obliterate Saitama. Meaning Immortality 2 kicks in. AD will only further open up that gap.

He's also x50 faster than Saitama as a SSJ tho

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree.

Again the other supporters are saying otherwise. Goku doesn’t have a 7.5 x AP/Dura gap even in SS. His attacks won’t obliterate Saitama. Meaning Immortality 2 kicks in. AD will only further open up that gap.

What other conditions? He has only one and even that isn’t agreed upon by the OPM supporters. Making it a stomp.

This wouldn’t be a stomp if it’s universally agreed upon that Goku has at least one win con. However the opposition doesn’t even agree upon that.

Giving Saitama the Perfect Cell treatment with a Kamehameha would bypass Type 2

 

[MrTayman616]

Giving Saitama the Perfect Cell treatment with a Kamehameha would bypass Type 2

Saitama has matter manipulation resistance. Does it not work against it?

 

[Kachon123]

Giving Saitama the Perfect Cell treatment with a Kamehameha would bypass Type 2

Why?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Saitama has matter manipulation resistance. Does it not work against it?

It's not matter hax? It's just a pointblank big AP beam.