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There was an issue with the wiki keeping the memory of unfinished drafts and a slight error in the coding that caused Warren to be softlocked out of the thread.
Here is proof of that:
Here is Warren's final rebuttal:
I am not doubting the possibility that Sailor Mercury can do the things you say she can, but the evidence you have delivered here is just not sufficient proof of that.
There is really only one scan that confirms this mostly, and it's this one.
Again, the Prince Daedme scan's context, from what I can ganer from the English translation mentioning planetary bodies gives off the idea of alternate dimensions, not higher transcendental planes of space-time.
And there is nothing in these scans that I can see, again, one of them is too blurry for me to read, that definitively says that any character here can manipulate 4-D space, just that four (or possibly higher) dimensional spaces exist, and these "messengers" come from such a plain of existence.
The fact that there are no descriptions of these characters existing in a different state of being or different state of time or causality is very telling that this just isn't the case, but I also have given two examples of how the characters are actively affected by linear time, making your notion seem especially erroneous.
As I said above, they are being affected by casuality. It just takes some time. So I don't think that this counts as Acausailty, but I admit I could be wrong on this point.
Just because everything comes from it (except Chaos and his brothers apparently, so I guess it's not as big as you mentioned), doesn't mean it should have the ability to negate Type 1 Acausaility.
I am not doubting that it can, just like I am not completely doubting Chibi-Usa should get Type 1 Acausaility, but I saying there is no specific proof that it is as you say.
But I don't see how this is Type 3 at all?
Is there an alternate universe or future version of Sailor Cosmos that is capable of bringing her back to life nearly instantly like someone like Lavos?
No? Then she shouldn't have the ability.
Where in the scans that you have delivered was it clearly mentioned that by "light", it meant Sailor Moon and only Sailor Moon, and by darkness, it meant Chaos and only Chaos?
In fact, the context that can be deduced from the scans and statements you said earlier, the Galaxy Cauldron is the source of everything in the universe - both Good and Evil, which is why destroying it would destroy all of light and dark, good and evil, because it will destroy everything.
How does that refer to just Sailor Moon and Chaos?
If Metallia doesn't embody evil, then that's proof that she doesn't have Abstract Existence. For Abstract Existence, you need to embody a concept, like Methuselah, who is literally darkness itself. This is the kind of proof that is needed for Abstract Existence, not what you have delivered.
You can't just be an incarnation of it, in fact, being an incarnation of something implies the opposite of what you are suggesting as Incarnation's definition is this: "A person who embodies in the flesh a deity, spirit, or abstract quality.". In other words, the person or entity doesn't embody the concept, but is constructed from it - like how Metallia comes from Chaos as per your words. This strictly goes against the idea that she should get AE.
Ganondorf from Zelda is a great example of this. he is the "Incarnation of Demise's Hatred", of his Malice and Evil. But he's doesn't possess Abstract Existence.
And neither should Metallia.
I discussed this more in-depth in the few lines of the point above.
"The lack of any conventional existence. Such a character will exist as something beyond the normal scope of the physical and metaphysical worlds, instead existing as an idea or other unconventional state. Such entities can be conceptualized by individuals, but do not exist in a physical or normal metaphysical form, such as a soul. In terms of binary, this would be a 0, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0."
You need proof that this will is beyond the normal scope of the physical (i.e one's body or physical space) or the metaphysical (i.e. one's soul or consciousness), not that the person is a will that exists after his body has died.
An excellent example of this is the Nagilum from Star Trek: The Next Generation. It is a being that has no physical dimensions, should not exist, is undefinable, and is a void exists outside the space-time continuum.
This is proof of non-existence.
Death Phathom doesn't such proof, at least not with what you have given, all the scans you have given say is that he is a will that exists after his body has died.
Existing as one's will or consciousness after one's body is erased is not Abstract Existence - it's just incorporeality. Being "a will" is not abstract, it is only abstract if you embody willpower like Lucifer Morningstar from Mike Carey's Lucifer, who literally bleeds willpower and was given the will of God to shape all things in creation.
But Death Phathom doesn't do or have anything like any of these examples, according to the scans you delivered.
You are misconstruing the definitions for this state of being.
Nothing here proves that Chaos or Sailor Moon is the embodiment of Good and Evil here either. As you said, they "represent" ultimate good or ultimate evil, that's the same as being it.
The Force is constructed into two types, Light and Dark (Good and Evil), the users that use these two versions of the Force, represent either side of the Force they use, whether Good or Evil, Light or Dark, so this example is still valid.
These statements don't mean anything - you need more explicit proof of Type 8.
An example of this is Reinhard Heydrich from Dies Irae, as the Apoptosis of Mercurius, possesses the inability to die as he is under the protection of Mercurius' will and Mercurius will resurrect Reinhard as many times as needed, so that he may die himself.
Also, if being born from the Cauldron means "life", then shouldn't Chaos represent the opposite, which is "death"? What determines that he is outside of the relationship between Life and Death to get Type 5 Immortality?
I think Type 7, being undead, fits better than Type 5 until I see proof of that. But if you do find proof, then I would argue that you can make the argument that Chaos has NEP because he would be the non-existence to the Cauldron's Existence. Instead of the Death of to the Cauldron's Life.
As stated before, more scans are needed.
The first, and my prominent complaint - a lack of evidence. You either give scans and makes claims that don't match what's is on the scans, or don't give enough scans to explain the context that you are stating. Most of your arguments devolve into, "This is happening in the story, just trust me on it", and I am sorry, but that is not sufficient enough for a CRT on this wiki.
Your second problem is a seemingly lack of proper understanding of how either certain abilities or states of being work, making interpretations that pull one or two words from the definitions of said abilities or states of being and then claim that these characters match the entire definition when they don't, or at the least, you haven't given enough evidence of such - as would be required in the numerous examples that I gave throughout the entirety of my post.
After reading and analyzing your two posts, I have come to agree with the following things:
Anything else, there is either a blatant contradiction in your logic or statements in accordance to the scans you provided, clear demonstrations that your understanding of an ability or a state of being is erroneous, or there is simply not enough evidence or context given to state whether or not said characters possess said abilities or states of being.
Again sorry, but I disagree with an overwhelming majority of the proposals here.
And since I both do not wish to argue this any longer, and even God himself seems to made it so that I shouldn't be allowed to argue here any longer - I will not respond again.
Thank you, stay safe, and have a nice day.
Here is proof of that:
Here is Warren's final rebuttal:
This doesn't mean that they are in a higher dimension - space-time coordinates just means one's position in space-time, which just means one's position within the universe.
I am not doubting the possibility that Sailor Mercury can do the things you say she can, but the evidence you have delivered here is just not sufficient proof of that.
This scan is too small, and when I try zooming in, it gets too blurry to read.
There is really only one scan that confirms this mostly, and it's this one.
Again, the Prince Daedme scan's context, from what I can ganer from the English translation mentioning planetary bodies gives off the idea of alternate dimensions, not higher transcendental planes of space-time.
And there is nothing in these scans that I can see, again, one of them is too blurry for me to read, that definitively says that any character here can manipulate 4-D space, just that four (or possibly higher) dimensional spaces exist, and these "messengers" come from such a plain of existence.
You always need to showcase the context before going into a feat, and then explain how the context of the series makes such a feat of a certain caliber.
Having your soul be reincarnated in the past isn't proof of a character being beyond linear time. It's just proof of resurrection, soul manipulation, and time travel - unless proven otherwise. And the fact that Chibi-Usa was able to time travel already shows that this is an ability that the people of her time are capable of doing.
The fact that there are no descriptions of these characters existing in a different state of being or different state of time or causality is very telling that this just isn't the case, but I also have given two examples of how the characters are actively affected by linear time, making your notion seem especially erroneous.
- Sailor Pluto's past resurrection still acting in accordance with linear time as she is that version of Sailor Pluto aged up x number of years that the time skip is, with nothing implying that this is the case.
- And most importantly, the fact that the erasure of characters from the past eventually leads to the erasure of those characters' future selves is blatant proof that these characters are following linear time and casuality. A cause has an effect, how is that supposed to be acausality?
Again, I am not entirely sure about this point, and I feel like we don't treat acausality in this manner on this wiki, but you would have to talk to someone who knows more about Acausailty than I.
As I said above, they are being affected by casuality. It just takes some time. So I don't think that this counts as Acausailty, but I admit I could be wrong on this point.
Ah, one, you haven't given scans of this, and two, even if you do, I don't see how that implies much of anything.
Just because everything comes from it (except Chaos and his brothers apparently, so I guess it's not as big as you mentioned), doesn't mean it should have the ability to negate Type 1 Acausaility.
I am not doubting that it can, just like I am not completely doubting Chibi-Usa should get Type 1 Acausaility, but I saying there is no specific proof that it is as you say.
Okay, then I fine with her having Acausailty Type 1.
But I don't see how this is Type 3 at all?
Is there an alternate universe or future version of Sailor Cosmos that is capable of bringing her back to life nearly instantly like someone like Lavos?
No? Then she shouldn't have the ability.
You need proof of that.
Where in the scans that you have delivered was it clearly mentioned that by "light", it meant Sailor Moon and only Sailor Moon, and by darkness, it meant Chaos and only Chaos?
In fact, the context that can be deduced from the scans and statements you said earlier, the Galaxy Cauldron is the source of everything in the universe - both Good and Evil, which is why destroying it would destroy all of light and dark, good and evil, because it will destroy everything.
How does that refer to just Sailor Moon and Chaos?
If Metallia doesn't embody evil, then that's proof that she doesn't have Abstract Existence. For Abstract Existence, you need to embody a concept, like Methuselah, who is literally darkness itself. This is the kind of proof that is needed for Abstract Existence, not what you have delivered.
You can't just be an incarnation of it, in fact, being an incarnation of something implies the opposite of what you are suggesting as Incarnation's definition is this: "A person who embodies in the flesh a deity, spirit, or abstract quality.". In other words, the person or entity doesn't embody the concept, but is constructed from it - like how Metallia comes from Chaos as per your words. This strictly goes against the idea that she should get AE.
Ganondorf from Zelda is a great example of this. he is the "Incarnation of Demise's Hatred", of his Malice and Evil. But he's doesn't possess Abstract Existence.
And neither should Metallia.
As I said above, there is nothing that proves that this, and you have specifically given evidence that this is not the case.
I discussed this more in-depth in the few lines of the point above.
You are misinterpreting the definition of nonexistence as you are hyper-focusing on the words "a character's will", when you should be focusing on this part of the definition:
"The lack of any conventional existence. Such a character will exist as something beyond the normal scope of the physical and metaphysical worlds, instead existing as an idea or other unconventional state. Such entities can be conceptualized by individuals, but do not exist in a physical or normal metaphysical form, such as a soul. In terms of binary, this would be a 0, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0."
You need proof that this will is beyond the normal scope of the physical (i.e one's body or physical space) or the metaphysical (i.e. one's soul or consciousness), not that the person is a will that exists after his body has died.
An excellent example of this is the Nagilum from Star Trek: The Next Generation. It is a being that has no physical dimensions, should not exist, is undefinable, and is a void exists outside the space-time continuum.
This is proof of non-existence.
Death Phathom doesn't such proof, at least not with what you have given, all the scans you have given say is that he is a will that exists after his body has died.
Existing as one's will or consciousness after one's body is erased is not Abstract Existence - it's just incorporeality. Being "a will" is not abstract, it is only abstract if you embody willpower like Lucifer Morningstar from Mike Carey's Lucifer, who literally bleeds willpower and was given the will of God to shape all things in creation.
But Death Phathom doesn't do or have anything like any of these examples, according to the scans you delivered.
You are misconstruing the definitions for this state of being.
You need to PROVE it's literal. You need to PROVE that Chaos is referring to the two of them, specifically.
Nothing here proves that Chaos or Sailor Moon is the embodiment of Good and Evil here either. As you said, they "represent" ultimate good or ultimate evil, that's the same as being it.
The Force is constructed into two types, Light and Dark (Good and Evil), the users that use these two versions of the Force, represent either side of the Force they use, whether Good or Evil, Light or Dark, so this example is still valid.
These statements don't mean anything - you need more explicit proof of Type 8.
An example of this is Reinhard Heydrich from Dies Irae, as the Apoptosis of Mercurius, possesses the inability to die as he is under the protection of Mercurius' will and Mercurius will resurrect Reinhard as many times as needed, so that he may die himself.
Can you give me some scans of this "Stars = all of life" stuff you keep mentioning?
Also, if being born from the Cauldron means "life", then shouldn't Chaos represent the opposite, which is "death"? What determines that he is outside of the relationship between Life and Death to get Type 5 Immortality?
I think Type 7, being undead, fits better than Type 5 until I see proof of that. But if you do find proof, then I would argue that you can make the argument that Chaos has NEP because he would be the non-existence to the Cauldron's Existence. Instead of the Death of to the Cauldron's Life.
As stated before, more scans are needed.
I could see him having Type 7.
Conclusion:
Your problem throughout this entire CRT has been reliant on two main issues.The first, and my prominent complaint - a lack of evidence. You either give scans and makes claims that don't match what's is on the scans, or don't give enough scans to explain the context that you are stating. Most of your arguments devolve into, "This is happening in the story, just trust me on it", and I am sorry, but that is not sufficient enough for a CRT on this wiki.
Your second problem is a seemingly lack of proper understanding of how either certain abilities or states of being work, making interpretations that pull one or two words from the definitions of said abilities or states of being and then claim that these characters match the entire definition when they don't, or at the least, you haven't given enough evidence of such - as would be required in the numerous examples that I gave throughout the entirety of my post.
After reading and analyzing your two posts, I have come to agree with the following things:
- Possible Type 1 Acausality for Chibi-Usa
- Type 1 Acausailty for Sailor Cosmos
- Type 7 Immortality for Death Phantom
Anything else, there is either a blatant contradiction in your logic or statements in accordance to the scans you provided, clear demonstrations that your understanding of an ability or a state of being is erroneous, or there is simply not enough evidence or context given to state whether or not said characters possess said abilities or states of being.
Again sorry, but I disagree with an overwhelming majority of the proposals here.
And since I both do not wish to argue this any longer, and even God himself seems to made it so that I shouldn't be allowed to argue here any longer - I will not respond again.
Thank you, stay safe, and have a nice day.
Last edited by a moderator:
