Sailor Moon! Tier One! The Ultimate Panacea!

[Sparx_gaming]

You are being disingenuous. You know aim using the staff translated text which takes precedent over a machine translation.

Anyways my point was you litrally ignored my reply before

Omg how many times are you gonna IGNORE THAT YOUR SCAN & TRANSLATION does not have any extra spatial dimension

Also here
"Stating that something is Extra-Dimensional simply means it comes from outside of the regular 3-dimensional space. It does not necessarily mean that it has an extradimensional axis in contrast to 3-dimensional objects, without further context."

"Stating that something transcends space or space and time does not necessarily imply that it has an extradimensional axis or that it pertains to the geometry of the object."

"Beyond 3D" can be taken as spacetime if there's no statements for extra spatial dimension.

"Following this same principle, a 4-dimensional being would be capable of moving through an additional, perpendicular direction incomprehensible to lower-dimensional beings, and this can be generalized unto any higher number of dimensions."

This is mathematical intuition way which obviously your scan doesn't have it either

So stop with the definition solely to wank the verse when you don't have any scan to back up the claim!

This one

 

[Daoist_Pepe]

No, it doesn't. I didn't miss that translation, that word just isn't present.

is your device faulty?

 

[Deagonx]

is your device faulty?

Perhaps you are misunderstanding. I am not saying the word isn't present in that user's translation, I am saying it isn't in the Japanese.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Okay. I don't really know what you expect me to say here. There literally isn't a "that" in the sentence. He cannot translate a word into existence, and I am not going to pretend it's there when it isn't.

You are free to continue insisting that since a user you asked translated it that way, it must factually be there, but it isn't, so I'm not going to magically agree.

You can check the sentence for yourself if you do not believe me.


No, it doesn't. I didn't miss that translation, that word just isn't present.

What are you even talking about? You’re not making any sense.

 

[Deagonx]

What are you even talking about? You’re not making any sense.

I'm not sure what about that was challenging for you to understand. The word "that" is not present in the Japanese text.

 

[Daoist_Pepe]

Perhaps you are misunderstanding. I am not saying the word isn't present in that user's translation, I am saying it isn't in the Japanese.

oh, sorry then. The kanji was translated by one of the wiki's translation helpers, so I believed it was correct.

 

[Sparx_gaming]

I don't even know why this thread has been dragged in till 4th page op is just using same argument of "beyond 3d" which is 4D

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I'm not sure what about that was challenging for you to understand. The word "that" is not present in the Japanese text.

Do you have your own translation then?

 

[Livinmeme]

There's no "that" in the phrase. It is simply "moving [through] dimensional space."

You know than that would imply some level of 5-D speed of some kind, if the whole dimensions shick was correct right????

 

[Sparx_gaming]

You know than that would imply some level of 5-D speed of some kind, if the whole dimensions shick was correct right????

Bro what

 

[Deagonx]

The kanji was translated by one of the wiki's translation helpers, so I believed it was correct.

Japanese: セーラー戦士たちが次元空間を移動する。
Phoneticized: Sērā senshi-tachi ga jigen kūkan o idō suru.

Phrase by phrase:
Sera senshi-tachi: Sailor warriors
Jigen kukan: dimensional space
Ido suru: the verb "move [through]"
"ga" and "o" indicate the subject (sailor warriors) and object (dimensional space) of the verb (move [through]).

The sentence is: "Sailor warriors move [through] dimensional space."

There quite literally isn't a "that" in the sentence. Japanese does not have articles like "the." It can be implied, and in this case "the sailor warriors" is likely best, but "this/that" are not articles, they are demonstratives, and Japanese has them. In the later sentence "going to a world beyond this three-dimensional realm"

Phoneticized: Kono sanjigen ni wanai, jikū o koeta sekai e to
"Kono" is the demonstrative "this."

There's no demonstrative in that sentence, there is no "that." Him putting it in his translation doesn't put it in the Japanese, it quite literally isn't there. You could've checked this yourself.

 

[Livinmeme]

Bro what

He is implying that the hyperdimension is atleast 5-d, and if they move trough it, they would need 5-d speed

 

[Sparx_gaming]

He is implying that the hyperdimension is atleast 5-d, and if they move trough it, they would need 5-d speed

He has to prove that's 5D first....

 

[Livinmeme]

He has to prove that's 5D first....

Then why all of this argument if the thing wasn't 5-d to begin with? It doesn't matter if the hyperdimensions are part of the AP feat, if they are just 4-D (The tier they are alredy are)

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

It also does not infer that Location X is within the jungle, such as:

"The warriors move through the jungle, going to the city."
"The tourists move through the tunnel, going to the skyscrapers."

Whatever it is they are "moving through" is not necessarily a part of, or independent of, the location they are going to. This can't reliably be used to determine the nature of the realm they are going to.

However, there is no preposition in this sentence, so "through" is somewhat interpretive.

So I have a simple question.

If you knew that the word, “that” was not in the Japanese, then you would also know that the phrase “going to” isn’t there?

突如として、空中に渦があらわれた。 超次元空間、現! セーラー戦士たちが次元空間を移動する。この三次元にはない、時空を超えた世界 不気味な音に包まれている。

Totsujotoshite, kūchū ni uzu ga arawa reta. Chō jigen kūkan, gen! Sērā senshi-tachi ga jigen kūkan o idō suru. Kono sanjigen ni wanai, jikū o koeta sekai bukimina oto ni tsutsuma rete iru.

Suddenly, a vortex appeared in the air. Hyperdimensional space, now! Sailor warriors move through dimensional space. A world beyond time and space that does not exist in this third dimension is surrounded by eerie sounds.

So my argument is wrong, fine. But so is your comment. The senshi are not traveling through the dimensional world to go to anywhere.

The syntax. Is

A is moving through B. Description C.

Examples:

The warriors are moving through the Jungle. Description of the Jungle.

The tourists are moving through the city. Description of the city.

The planes are moving through the sky. Description of the sky.

The dimensional space is what is being described as being beyond the three dimensional realm.

And before you say, the description is not for the dimensional space, that’s illogical. There is zero reason to believe a description isn’t for the location it’s immediately after. There is no other locations mentioned.

“A moved through B. Description C of new location D” makes no sense when there is no mention of the cast leaving that dimensional space. No sense when there is no mention of the cast using that location to go to another location.

“The warriors travel through the jungle. Description of a city.”

“The tourists travel through the tunnel. Description of a skyscraper”

So in conclusion, this dimensional space is being described as not being apart of the 3 dimensional realm.

 

[Deagonx]

And before you say, the description is not for the dimensional space, that’s illogical. There is zero reason to believe a description isn’t for the location it’s immediately after. There is no other locations mentioned.

Yes there is. "Hyperdimensional space, now."

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Yes there is. "Hyperdimensional space, now."

That’s the name of Mercury’s ability!

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

That’s the name of Mercury’s ability!

What does her ability do?

 

[Deagonx]

That’s the name of Mercury’s ability!

Yes. And as a result a vortex appears in the air which allows them to reach this realm. There is plenty in the text that implies an additional location, and it seems entirely illogical that "jigen kukan" would refer to a space reached by an ability called "cho jigen kukan." The prefix is literally "beyond."

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

What does her ability do?

It sets the entire thing in motion. She got time-axis calculations from luna and then performed the ability this entire sequence occurs.

 

[Deagonx]

The phrase "dimensional space" most likely refers to the vortex, not the realm on the other side.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Yes. And as a result a vortex appears in the air which allows them to reach this realm. There is plenty in the text that implies an additional location, and it seems entirely illogical that "jigen kukan" would refer to a space reached by an ability called "cho jigen kukan." The prefix is literally "beyond."

It is not illogical. The following sentence is a description of a space that is beyond three dimensions.

Hyperdimension means pertaining to more than three dimension.

A four dimensional space and on word would be beyond three dimensional space.

Your reasoning is l, they entered a dimensional space and then travel to a third space. There is nothing that in the sentences that say the dimensional space leads anywhere, that they left it, or that they were using it to go somewhere. Thats way more assumptions than the dimensional space is the hyper dimension and is also what they described as being beyond the three dimensions.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The phrase "dimensional space" most likely refers to the vortex, not the realm on the other side.

Vortex and space are not synonyms.

 

[Deagonx]

There is nothing that in the sentences that say the dimensional space leads anywhere, that they left it, or that they were using it to go somewhere.

There is also nothing saying that the "world beyond time and space" is the dimensional space. You're attempting to infer it from context. So am I.

Again, it's entirely illogical to me that "dimensional space" would refer to a realm that you are calling "beyond dimensional space" which is what the Japanese for "hyperdimension" actually is.

You can't have it both ways. You keep referencing the English definition of "hyperdimensional" but the prefix just means "beyond" and it can be translated as "superdimensional" or "transdimensional" among other things.

Arguing that the phrase without the prefix (dimensional space) refers to the space with the prefix (beyond dimensional space) is tantamount to saying the prefix is meaningless, which kills the argument anyways.

If you are arguing the prefix isn't meaningless, then the phrase without the prefix can't refer to it. That's nonsensical.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

There is also nothing saying that the "world beyond time and space" is the dimensional space. You're attempting to infer it from context.

The world beyond time and space is a description for the dimensional space.

Again, it's entirely illogical to me that "dimensional space" would refer to a realm that you are calling "beyond dimensional space" which is what the Japanese for "hyperdimension" actually is.

A realm that is 4 dimensions is beyond 3 dimensional space. The dimensional space is being described as being not apart of the 3 dimensional world. Calling the dimensional space beyond dimensions because it is not apart of the three dimensional world is perfectly logical.

Your argument requires beyond dimensions to mean, the space is beyond the concept of dimensions or any dimensions.

You can't have it both ways. You keep referencing the English definition of "hyperdimensional" but the prefix just means "beyond" and it can be translated as "superdimensional" or "transdimensional" among other things.

Arguing that the phrase without the prefix (dimensional space) refers to the space with the prefix (beyond dimensional space) is tantamount to saying the prefix is meaningless, which kills the argument anyways.

If you are arguing the prefix isn't meaningless, then the phrase without the prefix can't refer to it. That's nonsensical.

Fine then. You’re right and I am wrong! We should disregard the name of the attack. Afterall, just because an attack is called the big bang attack, doesn’t mean its an actual big bang.

Since the attack is called beyond dimensional space. Does not mean it’s beyond dimension space.

So let’s ignore the name of attack as it cannot be used as evidence.

The senshi entered a vortex and traveled through a dimensional space that is described as being beyond space and time and not a apart of the three dimensional realm. A dimensional space that is not part of the three dimensional realm must have another dimensionality. It cannot be 0,1, or 2 because the cast wouldn’t fit. There for it must be at least 4 or more. Let’s go with 4.

 

[Deagonx]

Fine then. You’re right and I am wrong! We should disregard the name of the attack. Afterall, just because an attack is called the big bang attack, doesn’t mean its an actual big bang.

Since the attack is called beyond dimensional space. Does meant it’s beyond dimension space.

So let’s ignore the name of attack as it cannot be used as evidence.

Discarding evidence that contradicts your theory so that you can maintain your theory is irrational.

The beyond-dimensional space is clearly what is being described by the final sentence. The "dimensional space" being moved through is confined to the vortex used to reach it.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Discarding evidence that contradicts your theory so that you can maintain your theory is irrational.

The Issue with "Name Fallacy"

I have been running into this issue on the wiki, and I think it's time to address it formally. The so called, "name fallacy" where someone makes the claim that the name of a technique cannot be used as supporting evidence for what said technique does. I think this line of argument to be plain...

vsbattles.com

I made a staff thread that rejected my request for attack names to be taken in as evidence.

So I cannot use it in my argument and it can’t be used in the rebuttal.

Just following the rules! Adhering to the rules and dropping false premises is not irrational.

The beyond-dimensional space is clearly what is being described by the final sentence. The "dimensional space" being moved through is confined to the vortex used to reach it.

A vortex is a vortex. A vortex is not a space.

The dimensional space is being described as being not apart of the three dimensional realm.

Your argument only makes sense if you’re calling a portal a space and then the space beyond the portal something else. That requires way more assumptions than the dimensional space being what is described as being beyond three dimensional realm.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

My argument has always been the dimensional space is the space being described as being not apart of the three dimensional realm.

It has not been the space is 4D because it is called hyper dimensional. I may have used that as supporting detail but I shouldn’t have.

 

[Deagonx]

I made a staff thread that rejected my request for attack names to be taken in as evidence.

So I cannot use it in my argument and it can’t be used in the rebuttal.

Just following the rules! Adhering to the rules and dropping false premises is not irrational.

You did precisely that up until the moment it became inconvenient for your argument. Your evidence changed but your conclusion did not, which is irrational.

A vortex is a vortex. A vortex is not a space.

A vortex has space that can be moved through. Vortex doesn't mean void.

My argument has always been the dimensional space is the space being described as being not apart of the three dimensional realm.

Do you recall what a demonstrative is? "This/that." It distinguishes things from other things. You attempted to use a non-existent "that" to argue that the dimensional space and 3-D world were separate things.

Funnily enough, the Japanese simply says the realm isn't within "this three dimensional world."

That doesn't require that it is not part of some other three dimensional world.

And since there's no evidence the "dimensional space" they're moving through is referring to this realm aside from your assumptions, this fails on multiple levels.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

A vortex has space that can be moved through. Vortex doesn't mean void.

No it doesn’t. A vortex is swirling mass. It is not synonymous with space. Prove it.

Do you recall what a demonstrative is? "This/that." It distinguishes things from other things. You attempted to use a non-existent "that" to argue that the dimensional space and 3-D world were separate things

And you proved it wrong and I moved to a different argument. What’s your point? Should i stick to wrong arguments?

Funnily enough, the Japanese simply says the realm isn't within "this three dimensional world."

That doesn't require that it is not part of some other three dimensional world.

No it doesn’t.

It says, この三次元にはない

This third dimension. The word, world, does not appaear in this phrase.

The world is beyond the third dimension.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

No it doesn’t.

It says, この三次元にはない

This third dimension. The word, world, does not appaear in this phrase.

この三次元にはない、時空を超えた世界へと

Contextually either word usage works.

 

[Deagonx]

No it doesn’t. A vortex is swirling mass. It is not synonymous with space. Prove it.

Vortex: a mass of fluid (such as a liquid) with a whirling or circular motion that tends to form a cavity or vacuum in the center of the circle and to draw toward this cavity or vacuum bodies subject to its action.

The dimensional space was the cavity portion of the vortex. That's what vortex means here. It's a wormhole.

And you proved it wrong and I moved to a different argument. What’s your point? Should i stick to wrong arguments?

If your arguments, reasoning, and evidence are fluid, but your conclusion never changes, you are working backwards from a conclusion. This is irrational.

The world is beyond the third dimension

It's also beyond time and space. Meaning it's non-spatial. This description is at odds with "dimensional space."

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Vortex: a mass of fluid (such as a liquid) with a whirling or circular motion that tends to form a cavity or vacuum in the center of the circle and to draw toward this cavity or vacuum bodies subject to its action.

The dimensional space was the cavity portion of the vortex. That's what vortex means here. It's a wormhole.

are you now going to say that dimensional space and wormhole are interchangeable?

If your arguments, reasoning, and evidence are fluid, but your conclusion never changes, you are working backwards from a conclusion. This is irrational.

My main argument has always been the space is 4 dimensional. Dropping supporting arguments that is proven wrong isn’t irrational.

The dimensional space is whats being described as not apart of the three dimensional realm and is therefore a 4 dimensional space still remains unchanged.

You on the other hand also keep changing your rebuttals, so can I accuse you of working backwards of “this is not 4D space”?

It's also beyond time and space. Meaning it's non-spatial. This description is at odds with "dimensional space."

You cannot claim that being beyond this three dimensional world means its beyond a single three dimensional world and could be another three dimensional world

And also claim that being beyond time and space means its beyond all time and space and isn’t another time and space.

Is it aspatial and therefore not three dimensional or is spatial and three dimensional?

 

[Deagonx]

are you now going to say that dimensional space and wormhole are interchangeable?

No. You aren't thinking critically. Look at the definition of vortex again:

a mass of fluid (such as a liquid) with a whirling or circular motion that tends to form a cavity or vacuum in the center of the circle and to draw toward this cavity or vacuum bodies subject to its action.

Suddenly, a vortex appeared in the air. Hyperdimensional space, now! Sailor warriors move through dimensional space. A world beyond time and space that does not exist in this third dimension is surrounded by eerie sounds.
A vortex forms a cavity (an empty space) and tends to draw bodies subject to its action towards this space.
The vortex is drawing the sailor warriors towards this dimensional space, the center of the vortex.

You on the other hand also keep changing your rebuttals, so can I accuse you of working backwards of “this is not 4D space”?

.... Why wouldn't my rebuttals change if your argument changes?

The dimensional space is whats being described as not apart of the three dimensional realm

Nothing in the text supports such a conclusion, and there is direct evidence to the contrary.

Is it aspatial and therefore not three dimensional or is spatial and three dimensional?

Given it's literally called "beyond dimensional space" I am going to assume its most likely the former, I was just pointing out that your argument has multiple points of failure.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Tier 1 Sailor Moon Discussion Rule?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/sailor-moon-tier-1-corridor-of-spacetime-door.157353/ https://vsbattles.com/threads/sailor-moon-tier-1-upgrade.151132/ https://vsbattles.com/threads/sailor-moon-tier-1-upgrade-reformatted.151188/ And now...

vsbattles.com

Can you clarify whether you agree or disagree with this CRT?

 

[Hasty12345]

I think the low 1-C suggestion has been debated long enough. It’s getting to the point staff input will decide if it’s reliable or not.

I’d personally focus on whether or not 2-B or 2-A are viable alternatives as proposed in the OP.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The vortex is drawing the sailor warriors towards this dimensional space, the center of the vortex.

I am glad that you agree that the vortex is the opening to the dimensional space and not the literal dimension space the senshi are traveling through.

Given it's literally called "beyond dimensional space" I am going to assume its most likely the former, I was just pointing out that your argument has multiple points of failure.

Dimensional space cannot be aspatial.

A 4D space is beyond the dimensional space of the third dimension. Where is the point of failure?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I think the low 1-C suggestion has been debated long enough. It’s getting to the point staff input will decide if it’s reliable or not.

I’d personally focus on whether or not 2-B or 2-A are viable alternatives as proposed in the OP.

Everyone is free to debate this. My OP specifically says its three parts.

People want to focus on the low 1-C part and then expect me not to argue my points.

 

[Deagonx]

I am glad that you agree that the vortex is the opening to the dimensional space and not the literal dimension space the senshi are traveling through.

Right. And on the other side of this vortex is a realm outside time and space. The space in the center of the vortex isn't the world on the other side, it's just the space being traversed during the process.

Dimensional space cannot be aspatial.

Agreed, which is why the phrase "moving through dimensional space" is not referring to the world mentioned in the later sentence. Especially given it's literally "space beyond dimensions."

 

[Hasty12345]

Everyone is free to debate this. My OP specifically says its three parts.

People want to focus on the low 1-C part and then expect me not to argue my points.

I choose to look at it more like “I’ve just spent 4 pages arguing with someone who doesn’t agree with me and now we’re going deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole about semantics, I have 2 other upgrade proposals in the CRT I could be pushing instead.”