• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Sailor Moon Revision Project: Part 2

Iamunanimousinthat

Iamunanimousinthat

3,295
1,272

Higher Dimensional Manipulation​

Sailor Mercury was able to bring characters to a higher dimension . Confirming the existence of at least one extra dimension of space.

Obviously Sailor Mercury should get this ability, but I also think characters who can warp spacetime should get it as well.

In the second arc, the character Umino, talks about how Calaveras's channeling works by accessing higher planes of existence. As we know, the higher plane she is connecting to is the future.

Prince Demande also mentions there being multiple dimensions in the universe.

NOTE: The Japanese scans uses the kanji for mathematical dimensions as oppose to different spaces or alternate worlds or dimensions.

Proposal:​


Higher-Dimensional Manipulation (with BFR and Spatial Manipulation )

Higher-Dimensional Manipulation (via Spatial Manipulation )

Acausality​

Essentially, all characters should get Type 4 Acausality and Limited Type 1 Acausality.

Reasons for Type 4 Acausality:​


The Present and the Future do not flow linearly. In the series, the future is treated more like a separate space than a separate time. The Present can change and effect the Future but Future can also change and effect the present. For example:

1. Neo Queen Serenity gives the senshi new powers and new transformations to use in the past.

2. Sailor Moon can channel Neo Queen Serenity's power from the future to attack enemies in her own timeline.

3. Sailor Pluto died in the future but was reincarnated into the present . This means the Sailor Pluto in the present is the future version of the Sailor Pluto in the Future. Sailor Pluto is also seen again in the Future after she has died , this Sailor Pluto is the Present Sailor Pluto in the Future, and we know this because this Sailor Pluto has her Eternal Fuku, where as the Sailor Pluto that died in the past does not. Confusing, let me explain again:

Sailor Pluto: Born in the ancient past -> died in the ancient past -> reincarnated at some unknown point in time -> guards the spacetime door in the future -> dies in the future -> reincarnated in the present -> lives well into the future and is able to guard the spacetime door after the death of her previous incarnation

4. Neo Queen Serenity gives Sailor Chibi Moon a new wand to use in the past fro the future.

Reasons for limited Type 1 Acausality:​


Characters were dead in the past , their bodies, souls, and minds completely erased, but their future selves were still alive . The 'Limited' aspect comes from two things:

1. While the characters were unaffected by their past selves being erased, this state of unaffected-ness lasts for a few weeks at the least. Eventually, characters who have had their star seeds removed will soon become incapacitated. This incapacitation is a negative effect, but they are not immediately erased and other people who are causally reliant on their existence are also unaffected as Chibi-Usa's father was dead in the past and simultaneously alive in the future but then later incapacitated in the future after a few weeks, Chibi-Usa was unaffected.

2. If a character, their star seed, or their sailor crystal, is sent back to the Galaxy Cauldron , their Time Paradox Immunity is completely null and voided by the Galaxy Cauldron, along with anyone and anything that is causally reliant on their existence. This is evident by the fact that Chibi-Usa was completely unaffected by her father being dead in the past or incapacitated in the future, but was wiped out of existence the very moment he touched the Galaxy Cauldron.

In terms of verse equalization and battle application, destroying a character's Sailor Crystal can bypass their Time Paradox Immunity.

Note: Special Status

Sailor Cosmos does not get limited Type 1 Acausality, she gets full Type 1 Acausality. She was completely unaffected by Sailor Moon, her distantly past self being erased by the Galaxy Cauldron. I believe this should also grant her Type 3.

Proposals:​


Acausality (Type 4 and Limited Type 1)

  • All Characters except Sailor Cosmos
Acausality (Type 1, 3, 4)
  • Sailor Cosmos


Abstract Existence​

This one is for three characters: Queen Metalia, Death Phantom, and Chaos.

1. Queen Metalia is described as not having any physical substance and is made pure darkness , evil incarnate , and pure concentrated evil

This description of Metalia isn't metaphorical but literal. For this I say she should get Abstract Existence Type 1 for being pure darkness and made of pure concentrated evil and having no physical substance.

2. Death Phantom should get Abstract Existence for his true form being pure Will . He is also described as formless .

3. Chaos is the source of all evil in the Sailor Moon Universe . All evil beings come from him. He is the concept of evil in the series.

To tally:

Abstract Type 1

Nonexistence Physiology​

For Death Phantom. The reason is the same as his reason for Abstract Existence. He is the pure will of a person who died and is gone. He should get Type 1.

And from the nonexistent page:

The lack of any conventional existence. Such a character will exist as something beyond the normal scope of the physical and metaphysical worlds, instead existing as an idea or other unconventional state. Such entities can be conceptualized by individuals, but do not exist in a physical or normal metaphysical form, such as a soul. In terms of binary, this would be a 0, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0.
Click to expand...

Death Phantom's existence as the will of someone dead counts as existing as an idea or an unconventional state. Will it self is an abstract mental concept.

Proposal:​


Nonexistent Physiology (Type 1)

Immortality​

Chaos states that Light and Evil will always exist in tandem with each other. They call each other and summon each other. This calls to reliant Immortality to Chaos, so as long as Light and Good exist Chaos will exist and keep coming back. The reverse should apply to cosmos.

It should also note, that in series, to permanently destroy Chaos, Sailor Moon would have to destroy the cauldron which would also destroy all the good stars in it, and end the universe as no more life or heavenly bodies would be born

As long as the other exists, they will come back to fight each other in one form or the other. All evil is just an extension of Chaos and Sailor moon is the ultimate good and the embodiment of the Galaxy Cauldron.

2. Chaos is also a being that was never born from the Cauldron , so he is not alive. This should qualify for Deathlesss Immortality

3. Death Phantom should get Undead Immortality as he is the pure will of a person who died and is gone.

Proposal:​


Immortality (Type 5 and Type 8; As long good and light exist so shall he)
Immortality (Type 8; As long as darkness and evil exists so shall she)
Immortality (Type 7)

​

 
Last edited:
I just woke up but I will try and give some input but I really have next to no knowledge on the series.

Things that I think are ok

Higher Dimensional Manipulation looks ok going by the scans.

Limited Acausality Type 1 and 4 look alright.

The Immortality suggestions look good as well.

Abstract Existence for Chaos is ok I guess

Things I'm not sure about

Abstract Existence type 1 for Queen Metalia seems iffy in my honest opinion. Not having a physical form and being made of darkness just means it's non-corporeal

The example for type 1 states; Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

None of those scans prove type 1, just that it's a being of pure evil and darkness but doesn't say anything about embodying either of the two or them needed to effect the concepts of evil and darkness to directly effect Queen Metalia. If that was the case, I know a character who needs a bump to type 1 asap.

Also, you stated "This description of Metalia isn't metaphorical but literal.". What evidence do you have to back up this claim?. If they are shown directly needing to destroy the concepts of darkness and evil to destroy Queen Metalia then I'll give you type 1 for her.

Also, we don't have a Type 3 for Abstract Existence anymore so she can't have that in general.

The same goes for Death Phantom, the scans only support it being Non-Corporeal and not an abstract. He doesn't embody the concept of will as a whole, the scan you posted just says he had a body that decade and "his will" merged with a planet and the other scan just says formless evil which is just Non-Corporeal.

Nothing from what I can tell says supports these two being abstract entities that embody those concepts, just Non-Corporeal beings who are made up of darkness/evil or will. If you had scans stating they were embodiments of those concepts as a whole then I'd agree with type 1.

Things I can't really comment on

Nonexistent Physiology, I've not had a good track record when applying this power so I wouldn't be the best person to ask about this.

This is the best input I could contribute to this thread, I apologize if it isn't a lot. If other people with better knowledge in regards to Abstract Existence think Queen Metalia and Death Phantom qualify, I won't argue with applying it to them but for right now that's the only thing I'm not sure about.
 
I'll wrote a comment here, because I'm pretty interested here. And as I see through comments, verdict is already come?
 
Thank you to everyone who commented.

As for the Abstract Existence, for Metallia it comes from this thread I made a while back. Characters who are made of an abstraction would qualify for type 1. They necessarily don't have to embody a concept.

For Death Phantom, it is that his true form is pure will.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Thank you to everyone who commented.

As for the Abstract Existence, for Metallia it comes from this thread I made a while back. Characters who are made of an abstraction would qualify for type 1. They necessarily don't have to embody a concept.

For Death Phantom, it is that his true form is pure will.
Click to expand...
If that's the case then I guess Abstract Existence is fine then but I'll wait to see what others think as well.
 

Higher Dimensional Manipulation​

What directly here says that what you are saying is happening?

All Mercury is saying that she is doing is creating a shield to stop a "neighborhood" from being destroyed. Being called "Super Dimensional" whatever doesn't really mean anything. And the next scan literally doesn't say anything about higher dimensions, just a person asking about the secret to the silver crystal's power - nothing about higher dimensions at all.

Your next scan is too blurry and small to read. The one after that does say that the messengers come from a transcendental higher dimension, but what that means for abilities, I can't determine much.

And your quote from Demande does not have enough context to determine that by multiple dimensions, that it was referring to higher levels of space-time, and not just alternate universes. And the Japanese kanji isn't enough, imo, to sway to thinking that it's of a higher plane of existence because I can't read the context in Japanese of what else was written there, and from the context in English, about planetary bodies, I am not fully convinced that higher-dimensions are being discussed and not alternate dimensions.

Acausality​

Reasons for Type 4 Acausality:​

This just seems like the characters have good range and are able to send power, objects, and even reborn souls to any point in time. Chibi-Usa coming from the future, IIRC - been a long time since I watched Salior Moon, is also proof of this.

The fact that a soul that was reborn in the past, Sailor Pluto, exists in the future, seems, to me anyway, that she is still bound by linear time.

Reasons for limited Type 1 Acausality:​

I don't know if this reasoning for Acausality 1, mainly because they are being affected, and there is nothing saying the changes to the future needs to be instantaneous - like, I wouldn't give Marty McFly Limited Acausality Type 1 for not instantly disappearing after messing up his parent's fateful meeting. That could just be how time works, like, Dragon Ball characters don't get Acausality from being unaffected from past changes because changing the past creates a different future - that's how time works in that verse, so effects from the past taking "time" to affect the future isn't really proof of a limited resistance imo. Also, the fact that they are affected by this, again, implies them being bound by linear time.

From what I can see, Chibi-Usa should get Type 1 if she was never affected by her dad's temporal erasure from the past, although her not being affected might just be a plot hole since she was erased when her father touched the Galaxy Cauldron - more context would be great.

That Sailor Cosmos stuff would be great, but it needs scans.

Abstract Existence and Nonexistence Physiology​

Unless you can prove that the description defining Metlia is actually literal, and she is literally the embodiment of evil, I would easily take this as metaphorical. Being made of darkness isn't Abstract Existence, but just being Non-Corporeal. Also, according to the current AE profile, there isn't a Type 3.

The same thing can be said for Death Phantom, his body was erased, but existed as his consciousness, a formless state, and merged with the planet. That's not Abstract Existence and it's not Non-existent Physiology - he exists as something, his will. Non-existent beings are just that, they don't exist.

Your Chaos scan doesn't state anything other than light summons dark and dark summons light., and that everything was born in some place - this needs far more context. And if what you are saying is true, and all evil comes from Chaos, then Metlia being the embodiment of evil is even more dubious.

Immortality​

I feel like you are taking the idea of Good vs. Evil a little too literally.

Human beings don't have Type 8 immortality because as long as there is free will, there will be good and evil people - that these concepts will always exist until people don't exist.

Rey and Kylo from Star Wars don't have Type 8 for being a part of the Dyad which states that as long as there is darkness, there will be the light that rises up to smite it, the opposite being true as well.

This just seems to me that it refers to the dual concept of Light vs. Dark, Good vs. Evil.

What states exactly that it will be this version of light and darkness that will keep coming back? And not just that if there is light in the universe, darkness will be spawned to try and kill it and vice versa?

This needs more proof to be a thing, imo.

I need more context from scans about the Cauldron or whatever to state that those who are not born from it are not alive.

And what? Being deathless and being undead are contradictory states of being - I am pretty sure you can't have both at the same time. And having your physical body die, but you retain yourself as your consciousness or will doesn't qualify for either immortality.

Tl;DR​

Other than possibly giving Chibi-Usa Type 1 Acausality. I don't agree, or don't feel that there is enough proof for me to definitively say that I agree, with basically any proposal here.

Sorry.
 
Last edited:
Warren made a very good analysis above. It seems like most of this has been rejected then.

Thank you for helping out.
 
I mean griffin did agree with many of the scans, it is 1-1 if you don’t count normal users (let’s be honest, you don’t.)
 
Warren's analysis is considerably more thorough, and I do count normal members if they have good arguments. I just frequently only have enough free time to read the posts of the staff and experienced members, given how many discussions I have to manage concurrently.
 
While I did agree with some of the stuff Warren did give an actual written reason to why he disagrees so I don't think you can compare my agreement with his disagreement.

I will wait for the OP's response to his post though as I'm not knowledgeable on how Sailor Moon's cosmology to give any good counter-argument to his response (if there is one).
 
I agree that one analysis doesn't overwrite another - especially when one's mind can be changed after listening to another perspective.
 
Well, let's wait and see what happens here then.
 
That's great - more scans and context is always good.

But I don't plan on making a response to yours.

I love Sailor Moon, it's my first Anime, but not in a power scaling sense - I have no interest to keep this conversation going, I only commented here because I was asked to.

All I want to do right now is play some Smash, listen to some Phantom of the Opera, and write my Networking term paper.
 
Warren_Valion said:
What directly here says that what you are saying is happening?

All Mercury is saying that she is doing is creating a shield to stop a "neighborhood" from being destroyed. Being called "Super Dimensional" whatever doesn't really mean anything. And the next scan literally doesn't say anything about higher dimensions, just a person asking about the secret to the silver crystal's power - nothing about higher dimensions at all.
Click to expand...

Sailor Mercury asks Luna for spacetime coordinates and brings everyone to higher dimension to stop the destruction of the neighborhood in their battle, hence Beryl states that "it doesn't matter where they fight". It is much more than just calling a shield Super dimensional.

Warren_Valion said:
Your next scan is too blurry and small to read. The one after that does say that the messengers come from a transcendental higher dimension, but what that means for abilities, I can't determine much.
Click to expand...

Which scan? Let me know so, I can replace it.

The other scans are to confirm that verse has more than three axises of space. They aren't getting anymore powers other than they can manipulate at least 4-d spaces.

Warren_Valion said:
And your quote from Demande does not have enough context to determine that by multiple dimensions, that it was referring to higher levels of space-time, and not just alternate universes. And the Japanese kanji isn't enough, imo, to sway to thinking that it's of a higher plane of existence because I can't read the context in Japanese of what else was written there, and from the context in English, about planetary bodies, I am not fully convinced that higher-dimensions are being discussed and not alternate dimensions.
Click to expand...

Well it is in context with the whole arc which deals with death phantom manipulating spacetime of a grand scale. I provided the Japanese scan because the series uses a different kanji for alternate dimensions. This one he's talking about dimensions of space and time. In context with the arc, this arc is about the Black Moon trying to change all of history and are manipulating spacetime. (the next arc however actually deals with invaders from alternate dimensions and they don't use the same kanji, I can provide it if you need it)

Warren_Valion said:
This just seems like the characters have good range and are able to send power, objects, and even reborn souls to any point in time. Chibi-Usa coming from the future, IIRC - been a long time since I watched Salior Moon, is also proof of this.

The fact that a soul that was reborn in the past, Sailor Pluto, exists in the future, seems, to me anyway, that she is still bound by linear time.
Click to expand...

The point is that it goes against linear time. Events in the future change events in the past. This cannot happen under normal causality.

Sailor Pluto died in the future, and then her future self was reincarnated in the past. Her past self is the future of her future self. She is not bound by linear time. The verse treats her reincarnation as the continuation of her life after the future.

This is like for all the other characters. There is no linear flow of time. or a straight line of cause and effect.


Warren_Valion said:
I don't know if this reasoning for Acausality 1, mainly because they are being affected, and there is nothing saying the changes to the future needs to be instantaneous - like, I wouldn't give Marty McFly Limited Acausality Type 1 for not instantly disappearing after messing up his parent's fateful meeting. That could just be how time works, like, Dragon Ball characters don't get Acausality from being unaffected from past changes because changing the past creates a different future - that's how time works in that verse, so effects from the past taking "time" to affect the future isn't really proof of a limited resistance imo. Also, the fact that they are affected by this, again, implies them being bound by linear time.
Click to expand...

In terms of vs battle, it's limited because killing one's past self does not have an effect on one's future self for a very long time, at least a few weeks and that gives a character options on the battle field.

And honestly, Marty McFly should get limited Acausality Type 1 if erasing his existence doesn't have an immediate affect on him that's still a resistance and gives him options. As for Dragon Ball, changes in the past create a new timeline. There is only one timeline in sailor moon.


Warren_Valion said:
From what I can see, Chibi-Usa should get Type 1 if she was never affected by her dad's temporal erasure from the past, although her not being affected might just be a plot hole since she was erased when her father touched the Galaxy Cauldron - more context would be great.
Click to expand...

The galaxy cauldron is like the outerverse for Sailor Moon. Everything comes from it and is the origin and basis for everything. It's not a plot hole but more of it has greater plot significance and shenanigans with it carry much greater cosmic weight than being erased temporally.

Warren_Valion said:
That Sailor Cosmos stuff would be great, but it needs scans.
Click to expand...
Sailor Cosmos is the ultimate version of Sailor Moon, but she was unaffected by Sailor Moon being erased by the cauldron.

Warren_Valion said:
Your Chaos scan doesn't state anything other than light summons dark and dark summons light., and that everything was born in some place - this needs far more context. And if what you are saying is true, and all evil comes from Chaos, then Metlia being the embodiment of evil is even more dubious.
Click to expand...

Chaos is being poetic here, the light he's talking about is Sailor Moon and the darkness he talks about himself. He's saying that the two cannot exist without each other and as long as one exists the other shall exist as well. The place they're talking about is the galaxy cauldron.

Sailor Cosmos, as chibi chibi, states to Sailor Moon that to permanently get rid of evil, chaos, she would have to destroy the cauldron, which would also destroy the good. Essentially, to get rid of one permanently, one has to get rid of both. Sailor Moon of course decides not to do that. To keep the endless war going so that good may exist.

Also Metallia is not the embodiment of evil, she in the incarnation of evil. She is an incarnation of Chaos as well who is also the source of all evil. (she's the first person on the top left of the page)

Warren_Valion said:
Unless you can prove that the description defining Metlia is actually literal, and she is literally the embodiment of evil, I would easily take this as metaphorical. Being made of darkness isn't Abstract Existence, but just being Non-Corporeal. Also, according to the current AE profile, there isn't a Type 3.
Click to expand...


My bad on type 3, I wrote this before there was the change in abstract. Never mind it. I will remove it.

My argument that she is an abstract being is that she is made of pure concentrated evil, as evil is an abstract thing. There really isn't a statement saying that the statements are very much literal and not metaphorical but I believe it is literal because of the context of the scenes, the characters are explaining what she is and describing her in great detail. There are also other beings that are ghosts, or made of shadow and they aren't described of being made of evil. And other incarnations of Chaos aren't stated to be made of pure evil but are made of another material or are physical. (like Death Phantom is pure will, Pharaoh 90 is black lava, and Queen Nehellenia is an person)

Warren_Valion said:
The same thing can be said for Death Phantom, his body was erased, but existed as his consciousness, a formless state, and merged with the planet. That's not Abstract Existence and it's not Non-existent Physiology - he exists as something, his will. Non-existent beings are just that, they don't exist.
Click to expand...

Death Phantom is abstract because he exists as pure Will. I can't get anymore basic than that. Someone's will is purely abstract concept. It's even more basic than consciousness.

And from the nonexistent page:

The lack of any conventional existence. Such a character will exist as something beyond the normal scope of the physical and metaphysical worlds, instead existing as an idea or other unconventional state. Such entities can be conceptualized by individuals, but do not exist in a physical or normal metaphysical form, such as a soul. In terms of binary, this would be a 0, where existence is 1 and nonexistence is 0.
Click to expand...

I say that existing a pure will counts as existing as an idea or in an unconventional state. He is not a wandering ghost, or a consciousness, but rather his will leftover will from after he died.

Warren_Valion said:
I feel like you are taking the idea of Good vs. Evil a little too literally.

Human beings don't have Type 8 immortality because as long as there is free will, there will be good and evil people - that these concepts will always exist until people don't exist.

Rey and Kylo from Star Wars don't have Type 8 for being a part of the Dyad which states that as long as there is darkness, there will be the light that rises up to smite it, the opposite being true as well.

This just seems to me that it refers to the dual concept of Light vs. Dark, Good vs. Evil.

What states exactly that it will be this version of light and darkness that will keep coming back? And not just that if there is light in the universe, darkness will be spawned to try and kill it and vice versa?

This needs more proof to be a thing, imo.
Click to expand...

I'm not taking it too literally because it is literal. Chaos is directly talking about himself and Sailor Moon. Rey and Kylo aren't THE embodiment of good and evil in their verses. Chaos is a primordial force. He is ultimate evil. Sailor Moon represents the ultimate good. This battle is on the cusp of the galaxy cauldron, the source of everything in the universe, and the birthplace of all possibilities. All versions of Darkness will be a version of Chaos.

Warren_Valion said:
I need more context from scans about the Cauldron or whatever to state that those who are not born from it are not alive.
Click to expand...

The Cauldon creates star seeds which all life and things are born from. Chaos was never born from the Cauldron so he never got to be alive. He even laments and complains about not being able to become a star. (star in sailor moon means both actual stars, and living things)

Warren_Valion said:
And what? Being deathless and being undead are contradictory states of being - I am pretty sure you can't have both at the same time. And having your physical body die, but you retain yourself as your consciousness or will doesn't qualify for either immortality.
Click to expand...

You may be right about the deathless and undead immortality for Death Phantom. In the end, he should just get Undead Immortality. He exists as just the will of a dead man.
 
Last edited:
This seems to have been rejected. It is extremely unlikely that it will be accepted by our staff.
 
It was only rejected by one person, the others in the thread agreed to some parts of it. And the person who rejected claimed they're not going to respond to any of my rebuttals so like, you can't really use them as that's not a fair conversation.
 
He did the by far most thorough and analytical analysis. My apologies, but this is not getting accepted with that kind of basis.
 
@Warren_Valion

Would you be willing to help out here yet another time please? After that we can probably close this thread.
 
There is some bug that prevents Warren from responding here. He wanted me to do a test post to see if it affects me as well.
 
the post won't load for me if I tried to copy and paste it on my end, but I can try to just screenshot what he's saying, granted there's a lot of coding so what he's saying won't be too legible, but it's better than nothing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Iamunanimousinthat
  • Locked
Sailor Moon: Tier 1 Corridor of Spacetime Door
2 3 4
Replies
137
Views
10K
Deagonx
Deagonx
Iamunanimousinthat
  • Locked
Sailor Moon AP upgrade
Replies
13
Views
2K
DarkDragonMedeus
DarkDragonMedeus
Akagami_Shanks1
Sailor Moon hax revision(again)
2
Replies
49
Views
3K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
Iamunanimousinthat
  • Locked
Sailor Moon! Tier One! The Ultimate Panacea!
4 5 6
Replies
205
Views
13K
Lonkitt
Lonkitt
Iamunanimousinthat
  • Locked
Sailor Moon Tier 1 Upgrade
2 3
Replies
109
Views
7K
Maverick_Zero_X
Maverick_Zero_X
Back
Top