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Ultima memtioned it and and a few others in the DBS thread too
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Sailor Moon: Tier 1 Corridor of Spacetime Door
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Vietthai96
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Iirc, isn't Space-Time Corridor is just, a corridor that lead to different point in time??, it is used for time travel
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- #43
Low 1-C neutral space dbs
Perhaps for Zamasu but not Zeno. We outright see that instead of the neutral space its zeno's dimension via the look, the point of this thread it to say that the neutral space is a 5D construct that is still beneath the timeline
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- #44
No. As shown above, individual universes are embedded within it as well as the time periods are also embedded into as physical locations.
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But you’ll have to justify why the 5D space is “significant”. Is it infinite in size? Holding infinite 4D universes doesn’t make a 5D space infinite AFAIK. One way to justify a significant 5D rating (aka Low 1-C) is to somehow prove that it also has a temporal dimension, or an additional (not necessarily different) time axis.
In DBS case, the 5D neutral space, the macrocosms, and every other realm is embedded within a higher flow of time (hypertimeline) which are the timelines themselves, which possesses both a temporal dimension AND (almost by definition for holding all of this inside) is large enough to be given a significant tier rating, at least that’s the argument for DBS (read the staff thread and the post by Profectus Infinity for better idea, in fact I recommended to TheUnshakableOne to also read those arguments if he still wants to propose Low 1-C Saint Seiya). So if you can prove something like this, then there’s a good argument to be had for Low 1-C SM
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How is it a good argument when it got rejected?
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Because the argument was never addressed. Read the staff thread, once Profectus presented the complete argument, Pein didn’t even bother responding to it (he verbatim said he isn’t reading all that), and had the thread closed because staff had disagreed BEFORE the complete argument was presented.
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- #48
The Corridor has no concept of distance and direction. All point in space are undefined unless you have a time key.
The corridor has its own unique axis. All of time happens at once from its perspective, as shown above in my diagrams.
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That just sounds like atemporality rather than it's own time axis.
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- #50
The two aren’t mutually exclusive.
If in the universes, the direction of time is past > present > future
thats a different axis and frame of reference where the past, present, and future are all happening concurrently.
And it is different from other atemporal realms where within them, nothing is happening.
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- #51
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How does that work towards making it significant. If it is a 5D space, it is SUPPOSED to have 3 dimensions of usual directions and then some, even ignoring that nitpick, how does that make it significant?
Why does that grant it a “new axis” of time? Did you not just say that time itself doesn’t exist there? The corridor, being the culmination of all past, present and future doesn’t prove anything here, unless you can show how it does while lining up with our standards (I don’t see anything in our standards that can possibly match this description).
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I’m pretty sure affecting past, present and future at once is a Low 2-C feat
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- #54
That’s not the argument. Take a look at the graph I posted above. The past, present, and future happen concurrently in the same frame of reference in the corridor.
See above. There is no flow of time. Time doesn’t flow from past to future. It occurs all at once. That’s a new direction different from the universe.
No concept of distance or direction. And all points of space are undefined. That is essentially and mathematically infinite.
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I disagree based off @MeiouHades reasons
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- #56
Which reasons? He’s been asking questions for clarification.
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I did. What you haven’t told me is why you think it warrants a Low 1-C rating for possessing that property.
By direction I assume you mean another time axis? In that case, why is that a “new direction”? How is past, present and future existing simultaneously warrant that rating? Isn’t that what most temporal corridors in fiction do?
My friend, what you said makes 0 sense mathematically, and I‘m a mathematics major. In a R^5 space, not only is there absolutely a concept or distance and direction, but there are much “more” distances and directions than in normal R^3 space.
Even ignoring that, what does “all points of space are undefined” even mean here? In what sense are they undefined, and why does it warrant the rating you propose? No, it’s not “essentially and mathematically“ infinite. Being undefined is not the same as infinity in mathematics, please don’t say that again it hurts my soul.
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I didn’t agree or disagree with anything. I’m asking him why he’s proposing what he is
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- #59
The Universes already have one direction of causality: past to future.
The Corridor has it's own direction: past, present, future, happening simultaneously.
That's two distinct systems of causality. The current FAQ page says:
There are infinite ways a story can handle temporal corridors, they all don't work the same. Each must be viewed upon by a case by case basis. There are corridors where from their perspective everything is frozen in time. Others where the frame of reference also seems to move from past to future in accordance to the rest of time, and ones where there isn't any decipherable information.
Sailor Moon's story distinctly depicts events that occur in the future have already happened in Pluto's frame of reference, while events in the past are going to happen. That's two distinct flows of causality.
I never said that R^5 spaces don't have concepts of distance and direction. But for the case of Sailor Moon, the corridor can be argued to be one dimensional layer equivalent above the R^4 spaces.
The corridor has universes embedded that are separate spacetimes. The wiki staff have already stated on occasion, that a 5th dimension is needed to keep these spacetimes parallel and separated.
The corridor having no concept of distance and direction, means that it can be categorized as R^? where ? represents an undefined number. And because we know that the corridor has spacetime embedded in it that is separated by a 5th dimensional axis, R^5 is a subset of R^?.
All points being undefined is supporting evidence to the corridor having no concept of distance and direction.
It is essentially infinite. Pick any points in the corridor, how long will it take to travel from one point to the other? An infinite amount of time because you'll never reach the second point, regardless of fast you go or what direction you take.
Another example. is take a vase. The distance between the opening of the vase and bottom of the vase is undefined. If you drop a marble inside the vase, how long will it take for that marble to reach the bottom of the base? How many marbles can you drop in the vase until it is filled? Replace marble with universe and vase with corridor.
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Disagree
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- #61
Can you please expand.
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I disagree FRA
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- #63
Which ones?
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Deagonx
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Which ones? A lot of his messages were about the size of universes which have nothing to do with my arguments?
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- #66
I would also like to add an additional argument:
To use the snapshots example. Snapshots of the universe would contain individual snapshots of the universe at different times. Snapshots of the corridor would contain individal snapshots that contain the past, future, and present of each universe at once. This is only possible because events in the past, present, and future occur simultaneously in the corridor.
To use the snapshots example. Snapshots of the universe would contain individual snapshots of the universe at different times. Snapshots of the corridor would contain individal snapshots that contain the past, future, and present of each universe at once. This is only possible because events in the past, present, and future occur simultaneously in the corridor.
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Yeah... I strongly disagree with this revision, and think DeagonX was right. I see no evidence of low 1-C. The whole basis for this is a misunderstanding of higher dimensions.
This reminds me of a debate I had with a DC fan the other day. Don't worry, I'm not going off-topic, just wait for me to explain. The debate was over this particular scan.
Many DC fans have interpreted this scan to mean that the cosmology is infinitely layered, but that's not remotely true. This scan pertains to a regular, run-of-the-mill timeless void. In a timeless void, events wouldn't unfold in a chronological sequence, and this lack of temporal structure could accentuate the feeling of infinite repetition. Without the usual markers of past, present, and future, the sense of repetition might become more pronounced and disorienting, amplifying the effect described in the statement. In other words, the scan debunks itself as "all things are layered on themselves endlessly" is explicitly clarified as referring to how the sense of perception within a timeless void would lead to a sort of infinite repitition.
So how is this relevant? The basis for your upgrade is that there is an insignificant 5-D space, which is made significant by a time axis that results in a construction with 4 dimensions of space, 3 of which are significant, and 2 dimensions of time, both of which are significant. However, you have not proven this insignificant 5-D space has its own time axis. In the Kingdom Hearts thread that used this same reasoning, they had actual evidence for the presence of a time axis. The Dragon Ball thread also had explicit evidence for the presence of a time axis. Your only evidence for the presence of a time axis is that past/present/future are simultaneous from the perspective of this corridor. That's not how any of this works. Like DeagonX said, and as I've explained with that DC Vertigo scan, that's just atemporality. This is the basic nature of the passage of time from the perspective of any timeless void. Viewing time differently this way isn't remotely enough to prove an additional time direction. If I remember correctly, you'd attempted a low 1-C Sailor Moon upgrade before under the basis that some place (which I assume was the corridor) contained "layered time," but that means nothing as per my elaboration.
There's also something I don't think anyone else has questioned yet. What is your evidence for the corridor being insignificant 5-D in the first place? The fact that it physically holds space-times in parallel? You know, there are two models of hyperspace (higher dimensional space used for easy spatial travel). The folding model of hyperspace depicts a genuine higher dimensional space. The idea is that a flat paper is 2-dimensional, but crumpled ball of paper is 3-dimensional. The crumpled ball folds the distant points of 2-dimensional paper to converge in a higher dimension, much like hyperspace would be a higher dimensional space from which distant points in space converge into 4-dimensional space, or separate space-times converge in 5-dimensional space.
However, this is not the only model of hyperspace. There is also the mapping model. Under this model, a hyperspace is a parallel universe which can be entered at a point corresponding to one location in ordinary space and exited at a different point corresponding to another location after travelling a much shorter distance than would be necessary in ordinary space. This model does not depict a higher dimensional space, and I believe that's the model that the Sailor Moon corridor uses. I see no evidence that it physically contains space-times, and therefore qualifies for insignificant 5-D.
This reminds me of a debate I had with a DC fan the other day. Don't worry, I'm not going off-topic, just wait for me to explain. The debate was over this particular scan.
Many DC fans have interpreted this scan to mean that the cosmology is infinitely layered, but that's not remotely true. This scan pertains to a regular, run-of-the-mill timeless void. In a timeless void, events wouldn't unfold in a chronological sequence, and this lack of temporal structure could accentuate the feeling of infinite repetition. Without the usual markers of past, present, and future, the sense of repetition might become more pronounced and disorienting, amplifying the effect described in the statement. In other words, the scan debunks itself as "all things are layered on themselves endlessly" is explicitly clarified as referring to how the sense of perception within a timeless void would lead to a sort of infinite repitition.
So how is this relevant? The basis for your upgrade is that there is an insignificant 5-D space, which is made significant by a time axis that results in a construction with 4 dimensions of space, 3 of which are significant, and 2 dimensions of time, both of which are significant. However, you have not proven this insignificant 5-D space has its own time axis. In the Kingdom Hearts thread that used this same reasoning, they had actual evidence for the presence of a time axis. The Dragon Ball thread also had explicit evidence for the presence of a time axis. Your only evidence for the presence of a time axis is that past/present/future are simultaneous from the perspective of this corridor. That's not how any of this works. Like DeagonX said, and as I've explained with that DC Vertigo scan, that's just atemporality. This is the basic nature of the passage of time from the perspective of any timeless void. Viewing time differently this way isn't remotely enough to prove an additional time direction. If I remember correctly, you'd attempted a low 1-C Sailor Moon upgrade before under the basis that some place (which I assume was the corridor) contained "layered time," but that means nothing as per my elaboration.
There's also something I don't think anyone else has questioned yet. What is your evidence for the corridor being insignificant 5-D in the first place? The fact that it physically holds space-times in parallel? You know, there are two models of hyperspace (higher dimensional space used for easy spatial travel). The folding model of hyperspace depicts a genuine higher dimensional space. The idea is that a flat paper is 2-dimensional, but crumpled ball of paper is 3-dimensional. The crumpled ball folds the distant points of 2-dimensional paper to converge in a higher dimension, much like hyperspace would be a higher dimensional space from which distant points in space converge into 4-dimensional space, or separate space-times converge in 5-dimensional space.
However, this is not the only model of hyperspace. There is also the mapping model. Under this model, a hyperspace is a parallel universe which can be entered at a point corresponding to one location in ordinary space and exited at a different point corresponding to another location after travelling a much shorter distance than would be necessary in ordinary space. This model does not depict a higher dimensional space, and I believe that's the model that the Sailor Moon corridor uses. I see no evidence that it physically contains space-times, and therefore qualifies for insignificant 5-D.
Literally all these statements could apply under a mapping model of hyperspace where certain points in a pocket dimension correspond to other locations in space-time. @Deagonx has explained it in his own way too, but there is no evidence of low 1-C here, or even insignificant 5-D.
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I will respond later to night.
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This is the basis of an additional time direction. I don’t know why you’re bringing this up when it doesn’t prove your point. I will explain more below.
Yes, I already have. I will show again below.
Did you even read the links you posted? Let me help you:
1.
How is this different from characters in Sailor Moon using the corridor to travel to different times? It’s essentially the same.
2.
Here is the thread using the fact the realm of darkness lacks time as evidence, something you were just claiming isn’t evidence.
The Dragonball thread is being rejected as we speak because proponents could not prove that there was an additional direction of time. Why even using it as an example?
You are under this notion that time axes are all different when that is not the case. Every single universe has its own separate time axis. However, if the time axes all have the same direction of causality (past to future) then they are all considered the same axis and there is no evidence of an additional time axis or direction.
You yourself have contradicted your own argument by agreeing that the Corridor has its own unique flow of causality that is different from the universes.
Had the Dragonball proponents, proven that their hypertimeline had a different flow of causality from the rest of the timelines it embeds, then the crt thread would have been accepted. That was not proven so it was rejected.
All spaces that hold universes in them are considered insignificantly 5-D by the wiki. I have already posted staff comments saying this. I have already shown the corridor holds universes within its structure.
This is all an unrelated tangent. hyperspace is a science fiction concept and at best a scientific hypothesis. It has no backing in any scientific theories or observations. You cannot just randomly bring it up and say the Sailor Moon cosmology uses it when, the cosmology doesn’t and has its own unique fictional cosmology.The fact that it physically holds space-times in parallel? You know, there are two models of hyperspace (higher dimensional space used for easy spatial travel). The folding model of hyperspace depicts a genuine higher dimensional space. The idea is that a flat paper is 2-dimensional, but crumpled ball of paper is 3-dimensional. The crumpled ball folds the distant points of 2-dimensional paper to converge in a higher dimension, much like hyperspace would be a higher dimensional space from which distant points in space converge into 4-dimensional space, or separate space-times converge in 5-dimensional space.
However, this is not the only model of hyperspace. There is also the mapping model. Under this model, a hyperspace is a parallel universe which can be entered at a point corresponding to one location in ordinary space and exited at a different point corresponding to another location after travelling a much shorter distance than would be necessary in ordinary space. This model does not depict a higher dimensional space, and I believe that's the model that the Sailor Moon corridor uses. I see no evidence that it physically contains space-times, and therefore qualifies for insignificant 5-D.
Literally all these statements could apply under a mapping model of hyperspace where certain points in a pocket dimension correspond to other locations in space-time. @Deagonx has explained it in his own way too, but there is no evidence of low 1-C here, or even insignificant 5-D.
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How? Time being experienced differently isn’t automatically proof of a higher time direction. Any basic atemporal space would experience time differently. You have failed to address most of my explanation as to why this is.
I never said that can’t be evidence, it just can’t be the only evidence. All 5-D spaces would theoretically experience time the way I described, you need more evidence for an entirely new axis of time.
You know what’s funny? That exact thread and its arguments for why there’s an additional time axis were rejected hard by Ultima_Reality. They were just lucky it was one of those instances where a tiering thread receives enough approval to pass in spite of disapproval from Ultima or DDT. However, I can’t say this this revision of yours will receive the same fate.
We have many supporters lurking, and the thread was forcibly reopened just so we’d have more time to prove ourselves. You’ve gotten virtually zero support on this revision, and offered nothing but the same drivel that’s been peddled as low 1-C for months. I’m gonna see if I can advocate for a discussion rule myself after this thread is rejected or in the future if more failed attempts are made.
It’s hilarious to see you fail to fulfill your basic burden of rebuttal. I asked for proof of insignificant 5-D, and I explained why your so-called evidence of insignificant 5-D could apply to a non 5-D construct. If you can’t refute the counterpoints, then give up this charade.
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Sorry to bother you, but may I ask what your current thoughts are on the thread? Are you convinced by her response to my concerns? Do you think you could tag any of your knowledgeable friends like TheGlassMan to evaluate here?
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- #72
Axes are directions. Two different directions of time would be two different axes. It’s that simple.
5D spaces have never been observed. They don’t theoretically experience time in anyway. This is ficitonal and should all be reviewed as a case by case basis.
I don’t need more evidence than to show that causality flows in a different direction in the corridor than it does in the universe. What do you think an additional time axis?
Okay, so you agree that the KH realm which received a 6D is similar to the Corridor?
This isn’t an argument. Discussion rules prohibit threads being made with no new arguments. All my threads use new arguments, so no discussion rule would stop this thread or any other thread I would make in the future. Please stay on topic.
??? I literally said that I posted the comments of staff saying that all universes are separated by insignificant 5D space by default. That rebuttals your statement.
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The scans seem to suggest that this realm is just outside time, not that there's an additional axis. "The rift in between times."
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- #74
That’s not mutually exclusive. I have shown that the events in the corridor follow a different direction of causality then they do from the regular universes.
Regardless of whether a space is atemporal, or outside of time, actions and causality still occur.
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This is true, mostly because fiction rarely treats atemporality in a way that is actually logical, but events occurring in a realm does not prove it has its own independent time axis.
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Have to agree with you strongly.
For one thing, the arguments for this corridor having its own time axis amount to special pleading and reading too deep into things. Events occuring and things progressing is necessary in any space for plot convenience, including spaces outside time or dimensionality.
For another thing, this corridor doesn't seem to qualify for so much as insignificant 5-D considering the statements about "space-time being physical locations" could apply rather easily to popular models of timeless warp spaces. I still haven't seen a rebuttal towards this, just "you're going off-topic by trying to apply random theories to Sailor Moon." The point is, evidence is only reliably conclusive when it eliminates alternative interpretations to a reasonable degree. The fact that there's no explicit evidence for this realm physically containing parallel space-times that can't be nitpicked by alternatives means there is no insignificant 5-D to be seen here.
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True. But that’s not the case here especially considered Pluto confirms universes are embedded in it. In the universes events flow with causality, from past to future. This is not the case for the Corridor. Using Sailor Pluto as the frame of reference, events in the future can occur in the past of the corridor while events in the past can occur in the future of the corridor. Take a look at these two timelines I created of events.
The first one is events happen in the reference to the universe where causality flows from past to future:
The second one is events happening in reference to the corridor where past, present, and future happen concurrently:
While in the corridor Sailor Pluto treats the entire timeline as though everything is happening at once. The corridor treats the past and future as though they are places rather than different times. This is doubly confirmed when Chibi-Usa says the past is physically located on the otherside of the corridor.
This again shown, in the future when Diana is attacked in the past but Chibi-Usa feels it happening in real time even though she is in the future and Diana is in the past. For this to work, there must be a frame of reference where both the past and future are playing out at the same time aka the corridor.
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- #78
You keep repeating this but it's not true. It's very explicit and in the OP.
Yes. Because that's how things are done. You don't bring up random science fiction concepts and then try to claim it applies to another fiction that doesn't mention it or use it.
First you claim that my evidence for corridor is lacking and then you use the Kingdom Hearts as example of a proper argument.
I then show you that the Kingdom Hearts example is very similar to the Corridor you then claim that it got accepted by luck anyway.
Now that I have proved that events are occur at a different flow of causality in the corridor than in the universe, you're now claiming it's all plot convenience?
These aren't arguments. They're just sour grapes. You wouldn't accept someone saying the hyper timeline in dragon ball is plot convenience, so don't try to bring that line here.
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what's up with these low 1-Cdragon balland sailor moon upgrades recently
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Place your bids in the race to low 1-C everyone. Which verse will win the tier first: Dragon Ball, Seiya, Game Sonic, or Sailor Moon?
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