Revision of Kirby Characters' Scaling

[Unclechairman]

It seems virtually every Kirby character on this website is Multi-Solar System level from scaling to Kirby, who himself (I believe) is scaled from Dark Crafter and Dark Nebula.

Aside from just seeming ridiculous to me (Multi-Solar System level queen bees?), the games don't back this up. I mentioned in a thread a few months ago that Kirby plots generally run on the Monster of the Week trope, which means each villain has little to no relation to the last and there is no overarching villain between games (the sole possible exception being Dark Matter). Thus, there is no basis for all of these villains to be on the same level of power aside from the fact that they fought Kirby and co., and the fact that they all had different showings of power is one of the reasons we had trouble finding out how to rate Kirby in the first place, given he defeats them all with roughly the same amount of effort.

Thus, I propose that none of these characters should be scaled from Kirby's showings against Dark Crafter and Dark Nebula unless they are explicity related to the aforementioned, and/or explicitly related or shown or stated to be similar in power.

 

[Unclechairman]

Bump.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Pretty sure we don't scale everyone. We just do to people like Meta-Knight, King Dedede and final bossess. Kracko and such aren't scaled to 4-A.

Even then, Dark Matter was shown to be on the same level as Sectonia in Robobot, and Star Dream created a Dark Matter clone.

 

[Unclechairman]

What basis is there for the Dark Matter Clone being on the same level as the Sectonia Clone? That they were fought back-to-back? Furthermore, Star Dream seems to think the Sectonia Clone is positively stronger than the Dark Matter Clone.

Also, Dark Matter at it's strongest is Planet level, not Multi-Solar System level.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I misread your OP when you talked about Dark Matter it seems.

How would you have this work? It seems kinda absurds to have Kirby go from Planet to MSS in the same game just because we don't know to scale people to him.

 

[Unclechairman]

It's equally absurd, if not moreso, for Kirby to use roughly the same amount of effort each time to deal with enemies ranging from to Planet level to Universe level. As I said, Kirby plots and enemies are written seemingly at random, and the showings are all over the place. I'm saying we need some other basis other than "it fought Kirby, who fought this guy, who's Multi-Solar System level" for powerscaling characters in this series, as it would suggest all of them are at a similar level of power when they're clearly not.

 

[Antvasima]

I have asked Fastsword88 to take a look at this thread.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah but I'm talking about the literal same story here, not accross multiples games. In the same game (And same storyline) Kirby fights a featless rat and later a 4-A star.

Also not sure if you should take bossess having Planet level feat as their upper limits, as Kirby himself had quite a lot of planet feats and scaling.

 

[Unclechairman]

In Triple Deluxe, Kirby nearly dies against Sectonia's second form and has to be bailed out by Taranza and King Dedede.

Later in the same game, he takes on and beats a stronger version of that same form with no problems.

I should also note that both times Kirby fought Dark Matter, whose best feats are Planet level, he had assistance. The Love-Love Stick against 0, Ribbon and the Crystal Shard against 02 (where Kirby did none of the fighting). This despite Kirby having Planet level feats.

Kirby games have zero consistency with how they portray Kirby's power.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Again you shouldn't take Planet level feat as being only planet level. Lot of character who scales to Kirby doesn't have anywhere near Stellar feats either.

Also isn't the Sectonia thing including Bonus stuff? I kinda doubt if it could be used here, as the timeframe or even any story link is unknown.

 

[Unclechairman]

That's the problem. They need more of a justification than just fighting Kirby.

You mean the True Arena? The bosses there definitely have a story link. Marx Soul's introduction shows him absorbing the remains of NOVA to revive himself, Sectonia's has her absorb Miracle Fruits to revive herself, and Star Dream Soul OS's first form still has the gash on it's front from being sliced apart by Galacta Knight.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah but we have zero context for such scene. Just that it happens after but otherwise nothing.

 

[Unclechairman]

That it happens after the main story mode is enough for me. I don't see any reason for the True Arena to be considered non-canon.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Not that it's non-canon but considering the uncertainties about it I'd rather not use it as an inconsistency proof

 

[Unclechairman]

It's far from the only one, though.

Here's a big one; in Kirby's Return to Dream Land, Kirby requires Super Abilities to defeat Magolor's first form. Then he transforms into a supposedly stronger form (Magolor Soul in EX Mode) and deprives Kirby of his Super Abilities. He even uses mock versions of Kirby's Super Abilities against him. Kirby still beats him with no problems.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It was accepted IIRC that Kirby didn't need them to defeat Magalor. It just helped (Notably to break his shields)

 

[Unclechairman]

Kirby definitely needed them, as with his shields up, Magolor doesn't take damage from any of Kirby's attacks.

I suppose you could chalk it up to his second form either not being able to replicate the shields, being too dumb to do so, or thinking it would be pointless aftr Kirby broke them in the last fight.

Also, I think you're missing the underlying point here. Regardless of whether it happens between games or right in one, Kirby's enemies vary greatly in power and statisitcs due to the nature of the series, while Kirby himself doesn't. The series lends itself to inconsistency, and the profiles should accomodate this.

 

[Antvasima]

So, do you suggest several keys for Kirby's power levels depending on the games?

 

[WarpingStar]

The True Arena's final fights are definitely canon. They even have their own story bits in the pause screen flavor texts.

I think we can agree that Kirby's power will always be above whatever new threat he needs to combat and that the developers are not bothering with consistent showings of power.

In Triple Deluxe, we have King Dedede getting basically one-shot by Taranza, who later gets sent flying easily by Queen Sectonia, and in Dededetour, King Dedede fights and beats Queen Sectonia DX and Dark Meta Knight.

Planet Robobot (and Word of God) describes Kirby as having "infinite power" and the final boss as having "nearly infinite", yet the game has one of the weakest final bosses feat-wise. Kirby also passes out from the resulting explosion after Star Dream's final form despite tanking supposedly stronger hits with no problem in previous games. (Granted he could also have passed out from exhaustion.)

Would having several keys for Kirby's power depending on the game mean that his Return to Dream Land "version" would be scaled to Magolor?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know. It depends on what the rest of the staff members think.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Don't we have a bunch of Sonic villains (who's names aren't Solaris or Time Eater) on the lens of the Supers even though they're featless?

Anyway, I'm not sure what you want. Do you want Kirby and friends to be 4-A w/out keys while all of his villains are scaled to their own? Because, even if Kirby was Planet level, previously his most average showing before Squeak Squad, a city block level final boss would make no sense. What I suggest as a compromise is to scale most final bosses that don't have feats above planet to be scaled to planet. Zero 2 is an exception, as he created the 4-A Dark Nebula. But considering how most villains past Squeak Squad were tier 4 and up, way up in the case of Magolor, I don't really see a need for a change.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree with Cal.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

So, do you suggest several keys for Kirby's power levels depending on the games?

This idea sounds far better than trying to look for shonen anime levels of linearity in a series where the main plot point is, "This villain is gonna take over the (planet/world/universe)! Kirby, save the (planet/world/universe)!"

That's about the only major consistency we'll find in this series, other than the characters that appear each game.

But i wanna see what others think aswell.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I agree with Skod.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I personally think we should leave it as is. These characters come after Kirby obtained his MSS rating and fight him on even grounds. Also characters like Dedede and Meta Knight along with Galacta knight and Waddle Dee should be fine where they are at. Like I said I think the characters are fine where they are at tbh. But it's just my opinion.

 

[Kirbyelmejor]

I agree with Cal

 

[RadicalMrR]

I agree with Cal

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it seems like most people think that the statistics are fine as they are.

 

[Unclechairman]

So, do you suggest several keys for Kirby's power levels depending on the games?

No, the way Kirby is scaled is fine to me. I'm saying that unless a given character has shown or is stated to be on the level of another, they shouldn't scale. I'm basically saying all these characters we have at Multi-Solar System level need some other reason they should scale to Dark Crafter/Nebula other than the fact that they fought Kirby who fought Dark Crafter/Nebula.

 

[Unclechairman]

Don't we have a bunch of Sonic villains (who's names aren't Solaris or Time Eater) on the lens of the Supers even though they're featless?
Anyway, I'm not sure what you want. Do you want Kirby and friends to be 4-A w/out keys while all of his villains are scaled to their own? Because, even if Kirby was Planet level, previously his most average showing before Squeak Squad, a city block level final boss would make no sense. What I suggest as a compromise is to scale most final bosses that don't have feats above planet to be scaled to planet. Zero 2 is an exception, as he created the 4-A Dark Nebula. But considering how most villains past Squeak Squad were tier 4 and up, way up in the case of Magolor, I don't really see a need for a change.

First of all, the lot of Sonic villains actually have a reason for scaling to the Super forms; most of them are powered by the same energy force that powers the Super forms. Solaris and Time Eater are exceptions, and look how different their stats are.

A City-Block level final boss would make perfect sense, or at least, as much sense as the series is willing to make, considering it's nature.

Also, where did you get the idea that 02 created Dark Nebula? 02 was dead by the time Dark Nebula was introduced (assuming Squeak Squad takes place chronologically after Kirby 64, of course).

Dark Crafter and Magolor are the only villains post Squeak Squad that have feats ranking tier 4 and above. The rest as far as I know (as Triple Deluxe and Planet Robobot kindly show) are far below that level.

 

[Unclechairman]

I personally think we should leave it as is. These characters come after Kirby obtained his MSS rating and fight him on even grounds.

NOVA is rated as 4-A despite coming before Squeak Squad and having no feats of that level.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Sectonia is is powered by a fruit that makes Kirby a black hole. Galacta Knight, who debuted in KSSU, is supposed to be the strongest in the galaxy in a galaxy full of MSS people, and Marx Soul was supposed to be above that. Zero was considered to have created dark matter, and Dark Nebula was stated to be made of dark matter. This would be the only boss (excluding Dedede in the first game) that has feats below planet in general.

Sonic point, fair enough.

 

[Unclechairman]

This idea sounds far better than trying to look for shonen anime levels of linearity in a series where the main plot point is, "This villain is gonna take over the (planet/world/universe)! Kirby, save the (planet/world/universe)!"

That's about the only major consistency we'll find in this series, other than the characters that appear each game.

And by ranking every villain and character after Squeak Squad/Rainbow Curse after 4-A despite the only reason for such being that they fought Kirby, we're assuming it does have linearity when as I'm trying to explain, it doesn't.

Kirby games as a whole do not have a Sorting Algorithm of Evil like many anime and manga series, so trying to apply the same standards to it simply does not work well.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. So which character profiles do you specifically want to change, and to what?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If any were to change, it would be Sectonia for sure, and likely Marx and NOVA.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Antvasima]

We would need footnotes explaining why they are not scaled to Kirby in their profiles though.

 

[Unclechairman]

Sectonia is is powered by a fruit that makes Kirby a black hole. Galacta Knight, who debuted in KSSU, is supposed to be the strongest in the galaxy in a galaxy full of MSS people, and Marx Soul was supposed to be above that. Zero was considered to have created dark matter, and Dark Nebula was stated to be made of dark matter. This would be the only boss (excluding Dedede in the first game) that has feats below planet in general.

Considering our page on black hole feats, Hypernova Kirby most likely no longer qualifies as a genuine black hole.

Marx Soul being stronger than Galacta Knight would contradict the claim of Galacta Knight being the strongest in the galaxy, which makes that point moot. Although given his continuous appearances and hype in recent Kirby games I might be willing to buy that he's actually stronger or at least got stronger.

I have not heard this claim of Zero creating dark matter (unless you mean the Dark Matter), nor that Dark Nebula is related to or made of Dark Matter. As far as I know, Dark Nebula was just an evil being that was sealed in a box that Kirby beat up on his way to get some delicious cake. I can certainly see the similarities and why people might think that, but nothing concrete.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I did mean the Dark Matter. Dark Nebula is listed among the Dark Matter invaders in the Japan-exclusive 20th Anniversary Hoshi no K─üb─½ Pupupu Taizen. This would explain the similar coloration of Dark Daroach and Dark Matter's swordsman form.