Revision of Kirby Characters' Scaling

[Unclechairman]

Japan-exclusive 20th Anniversary Hoshi no K─üb─½ Pupupu Taize

What? Can you show this?

Although I fail to see how this disproves my point.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It doesn't disprove your point. I'm just trying to point out that 0^2 is 4-A through scaling directly through Nebula. If he created DN, then he should be at least as powerful.

 

[Unclechairman]

I suppose, but 02's best feat is Planet level, and from what I read, Dark Nebula's own Multi-Solar System feat is incredibly shaky.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Shaky or not, we have a rule about attempting to disprove Dark Nebula's feat. And the scaling works well, at least for 0-Two. For example, tons of DB characters are through scaling. Buu, Nappa, all of the god tiers except Beerus and Zen'o, etc.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Japan-exclusive 20th Anniversary Hoshi no K─üb─½ Pupupu Taize

What? Can you show this?

As for that, it's incredibly hard to find a scan from an obscure Japanese guide.

 

[Ryukama]

Yeah if we rated characters only on their own feats and didn't powerscale we'd have a massive problem. With a majority of our pages being unknowns or hilariously downplayed.

 

[Unclechairman]

And the scaling works well, at least for 0-Two. For example, tons of DB characters are through scaling. Buu, Nappa, all of the god tiers except Beerus and Zen'o, etc.

Did you read my posts above? Kirby does not have a linear scale of villain power like Dragon Ball. The problem is that our profiles are treating it like it does.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I understand. This is specifically for 02. Not for anyone else.

 

[Unclechairman]

Well, if it did create Dark Nebula, it probably scales. It'd make sense too for 02 to be stronger, as Kirby can defeat Dark Nebula all on his own without any special abilities (the Triple Star is optional), while Kirby needed Ribbon and the Crystal Shard to do basically all the work for him against 02.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That's true.

 

[Fastsword88]

Kïrby indeed defeated 0 with the crystal gun. He defeated him before without Ribbon, and he can tank 0's attacks head on regardless of which power he's using.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with Cal and Ryu. Several characters on this wiki have no feats above planet but are scaled to other much higher tier characters.

 

[Unclechairman]

I think you're missing the point, again. Kirby cannot be held to the same standards as a typical shonen battle manga. In the case of shonen characters, they're scaled because they have an in-universe reason for such as well as the fact that shonen typically have linear scales of power (i.e, the power of the protagonists steadily go up as more powerful villains are introduced to give them a challange and a reason to get stronger).

In the case of Kirby, it tends to go like this; villain shows up who wants to take over the world, Kirby wakes up from his nap, destroys their army and beats them in single-combat. He may have the help of his friends or a new ability or weapon, but Kirby himself is always a constant; he stays the same in every installment. He does not develop like a shonen protagonist to adapt to a more powerful villain. He simply defeats them and saves the day, be they City busters, Planet busters, Solar System busters, or even Universe busters.

So what I'm saying is; Kirby characters need to be held to a different standard. I'm not saying this without reason or out of disrespect for the franchise. In fact, I'm saying this out of actual respect for the franchise and what it is, and it is not like the typical shonen we are all too familiar with.

 

[Unclechairman]

Kïrby indeed defeated 0 with the crystal gun. He defeated him before without Ribbon, and he can tank 0's attacks head on regardless of which power he's using.

You mean when Kirby fought him as 0? He needed the Love-Love Stick. It's not optional like Triple Star. It's mandatory. I'm not sure if the Love-Love Stick increased his durability, but he cannot fight 0 without it.

Kirby never beat Dark Matter in a fair fight, unless you count Dark Nebula. In Dark Matter's first appearance, Kirby needed the Rainbow Sword to combat it. The only other time Kirby fought Dark Matter without some legendary weapon powering him up or assistance was when he fought an inferior clone created by Star Dream, who was unable to fully analyze it to create a true copy.

 

[Antvasima]

So, to summarise, which character profiles do you think should have their statistics changed, and to what?

 

[Unclechairman]

Kirby can stay the same.

Queen Sectonia should be downgraded to, well, I'm not quite sure what to place her base form at, but her Dreamstalk and Soul forms should be Planet level and at least Planet level, respectively.

NOVA should be downgraded to Planet/possibly Large Planet for holding down the Sun and Moon of Pop Star. However, I believe a note should be added in his profile stating that he does not appear to have any combat capability aside from his internal defense systems and is merely a wish-granting magical machine.

Marx should be downgraded to, well, again, I'm not sure where to place his first form at the moment. Kirby, however, has a feat in Super Star that he can be scaled to. He may also be possibly Planet level retroactively scaling from Galacta Knight. Marx Soul can be possibly Planet level as well as he absorbed NOVA's power. Also, Kracko can be scaled to that feat from Super Star (specifically, Kirby knocking King Dedede out of his castle in the ending of Spring Breeze/Revenge of the King).

Dark Matter should be listed as Planet level at it's strongest, as Dark Star was essentially a living planet formed of all the Dark Matter that took over Ripple Star. This would scale to 02 as well. They could possibly be Multi-Solar System as well if what was stated above about Dark Nebula being created from them is true, but I'd really like to have a scan of that statement first.

Galacta Knight should be likely Planet level for reasons posted above. Meta Knight and probably Dark Meta Knight can scale to him.

I believe it would be safe to scale Dedede to Bandana Dee, given the latter is an underling of Dedede's in Revenge of the King.

Dyna Blade (if we make a profile for her) can scale to Kirby's feat in Super Star mentioned above, though that feat will need to be calced to yield something worth scaling from. If it comes out less than Building level, you might add a "possibly Building level" as Dyna Blade is shown to be as tall as a building in Kirby Air Ride, though being a spin-off, it may be unreliable, as Dyna Blade doesn't appear anywhere near that size in Super Star.

I'm not sure what to do with Dark Mind, as I haven't played Kirby and the Amazing Mirror.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The rest is fair enough, but Dedede, Meta Knight, and Bandana Waddle Dee shouldn't get downgraded, seeing how they're basically the Luigis and Bowsers of the Kirby games. Also, the other Knights, since they return bigger and badder, should be up with Kirby.

 

[Unclechairman]

I suppose that's reasonable. For Bandana Dee, though, it's because he apparently fought Claycia, who is the reason for Kirby's 4-A ranking, not because he appears recurrently. As far as I know, he only got a major role in Kirby's Return to Dream Land.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm okay with that reasoning for BWD

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that the above seems mostly reasonable. However, you would have to insert footnote explanations in the respective pages regarding why they are not scaled from Kirby's full power.

 

[Unclechairman]

Every one of them? Wouldn't just the verse page suffice?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it would avoid a lot of future questions, in case visitors do not read the verse page, and you could simply copy the same footnote.

 

[Unclechairman]

I suppose so.

 

[Fastsword88]

So Marx, Waddle Dee, Nova, and Sectonia are gonna be downgraded to 5-A ? Hmm, I hope this won't create possible inconsistencies or questions later.

Btw, I've noticed the Star Dream page, and the stats are a bit random. Star Dream, regardless of which form we're talking about, can't be only 5-C and especially not 8-B if he managed to survive an attack from Galacta and still function properly.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

One more thing. Because Marx came back with a new form in the remake, and because Kracko fought 3 of the main four along with the fact he's in almost all of the games, they should stay where they are (or at least the Soul form of Marx).

 

[Antvasima]

That seems reasonable.

 

[Unclechairman]

I don't think that's really enough reasoning to not downgrade Marx. He's still ultimately Super Star's villain and not of any other game.

Kracko continually popping up to fight Kirby and co. is attributed to his tenacity and not his overall power.

"Kirby has defeated Kracko countless times, but as long as the clouds still hang in the sky, Kracko will never give up the fight!"

He always appears as a regular boss and not a final boss. I don't think he should be put on the level of a final boss simply because he fights Kirby a lot.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I mean, it would be safe to say at this point of time, he'd have surpassed the 2nd game final boss Nightmare

 

[Unclechairman]

Btw, I've noticed the Star Dream page, and the stats are a bit random. Star Dream, regardless of which form we're talking about, can't be only 5-C and especially not 8-B if he managed to survive an attack from Galacta and still function properly.

I noted that in it's durability. Regardless, Galacta Knight still pretty much one-shotted it.

8-B is honestly a very rough estimation. The Halberd's size is said to vary between games, so I checked the wiki and went by it's size in the anime (about as large as Dedede's castle). It seemed right, since there was so much to explore in Meta Knight's Revenge. 5-C is an estimation too, but it was easier to discern since the Access Ark is consistently about half the size of Pop Star or slightly larger, and I believe we generally assume Pop Star is the size of Earth.

 

[Unclechairman]

I mean, it would be safe to say at this point of time, he'd have surpassed the 2nd game final boss Nightmare

Safe? Kirby needed the Star Rod to even touch Nightmare. He can easily defeat Kracko all on his own.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

In the anime, he needed the Star Rod. In the games, Dedede just shot out Kirby with the Star Rod. And Kirby could still tank shots from Nightmare regardless. Besides, Kirby didn't need anything to beat Marx or Marx Soul. Or heck, even Magolor Soul. And Kracko isn't an early game boss like Whispy Woods.

 

[Unclechairman]

Fine, but I fail to see what the logic is behind assuming Kracko to have somehow become as strong as or stronger than Nightmare. As far as I know, the only time in the games Kracko is noted to have become stronger is in Triple Deluxe, where it's pause screen description states that "it's being fed by a mysterious energy source", which is most likely Taranza.

 

[Fastsword88]

@Unclechairman : On the Star Dream note, if it were truly 8-B, then Galacta's attack would've atomized it and Star Dream would be gone, never to come back. Yet, shortly later it engages Kirby in battle just fine. I would put it at tier 4 durability for surviving Galacta's attack. In this case, unlike Sectonia, it's very direct power-scaling.

EDIT : Btw, regarding Access Ark's size, Pop Star is far larger than Earth. It's massive enough to contain amoon in the stratosphere .

 

[Unclechairman]

If it had tier 4 durability, the Halberd would not have even been able to damage it. Honestly, I put "possibly higher" because there doesn't seem to be a way to reconcile it surviving Galacta Knight's attack and being able to be damaged by the Halberd's cannons other than just assuming everything the Halberd throws out is Moon/Planet level.

 

[Fastsword88]

Is there something that contradicts Halberd's fire power being at tier 4 level ? And this isn't regular Halberd either, it's Kirby Halberd. The game already establishes that Kirby can pour energy into machinery to boost it's stats to insane levels (Example : He turns a fodder armor into the Robobot Armor just by touching it).

In case you missed my last comment's edit : "Btw, regarding Access Ark's size, Pop Star is far larger than Earth. It's massive enough to contain amoon in the stratosphere . "

 

[Unclechairman]

The only thing supporting it is Galacta Knight, and there's no indication of it having tier 4 level power in any of the games.

"The game already establishes that Kirby can pour energy into machinery to boost it's stats to insane levels (Example : He turns a fodder armor into the Robobot Armor just by touching it)."

The pause screen all but states that this is a trait of the Robobot Armor/Invader Armor and not Kirby himself.

"This mysterious mech produces different powers depending on its pilot. Kirby's Copy Ability power has transformed it into a shape-shifting copy robot!"

I'm not sure how seeing a moon from the stratosphere proves Pop Star is bigger than Earth. If you went into the stratosphere at night in real life, you'd see the moon, too.

 

[Fastsword88]

The Halberd almost never appears in direct combat, that's why it has no feats. This is the 1st time it finally does something, so why is the feat being written off ?

I didn't know about what was said in the pause screen, but that still proves that the Halberd indeed had its power boosted by Kirby.

Check out the link again. The moon is inside the stratosphere (not outside and simply visible from it), that's what proves Pop Star's massive size. There's no known planet containing a whole moon in it's stratosphere alone.

 

[HousedInEngi]

Kirby merged with it technically so I doubt it scales to it's regular form

 

[HousedInEngi]

Also, no proof of the moon being in orbit as it could just be close/perspective


Another thing? It's contradicted when you realize Shiver Star - which is supposedly Earth - is the same size as Pop Star