Revision of Kirby Characters' Scaling

[Antvasima]

So, should somebody perform Unclechairman's suggested changes, or are there still disagreements?

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Waddle Dee shouldn't get downgraded. He should be comparable to Kirby overall, and why should we ignore his feat of defeating Claycia just because he doesn't appear recurrently? He doesn't have many feats at all.

 

[Fastsword88]

@HousedInEngi : Kirby merging with it is why it actually scales.

And the moon is directly behind in the setting. It would've had a farer and more upwards perspective if it were outside in orbit. That, and the article itself saying that the moon is indeed in the stratosphere.

It's not confirmed anywhere that Shiver Star is actually Earth.

 

[Antvasima]

@Fastsword88 Are you okay with Unclechairman's proposed changes?

 

[Unclechairman]

Waddle Dee shouldn't get downgraded. He should be comparable to Kirby overall, and why should we ignore his feat of defeating Claycia just because he doesn't appear recurrently? He doesn't have many feats at all.

I just said that Waddle Dee wouldn't get downgraded because he apparently participated in the fight against Claycia.

 

[Unclechairman]

The Halberd almost never appears in direct combat, that's why it has no feats. This is the 1st time it finally does something, so why is the feat being written off ?
I didn't know about what was said in the pause screen, but that still proves that the Halberd indeed had its power boosted by Kirby.

First of all, the Halberd has at least one feat prior to this from my memory, and that is shooting down Dyna Blade in Super Star. Second of all, it's being written off at the moment because I have yet to believe Star Dream actually has tier 4 durability. Sure, it took a slash from Galacta Knight, but for one, it was nearly destroyed by that slash, and for two, Galacta Knight himself is dubiously Multi-Solar System at best, considering the character(s) with the most clear-cut tier 4 feat (Claycia, Dark Crafter) exists in another dimension, preventing Galacta Knight from scaling to them by his claim of being the strongest in the galaxy.

You must not have read that clearly enough. The Invader/Robobot Armor is stated to change depending on it's pilot. It turning into what Kirby is seen piloting is a trait of the mech itself, not anything Kirby did.

As far as I know, the only thing that changed about the Halberd when the Robobot Armor merged with it (aside from appearance, of course) is that it gained a new attack called the Planet Buster which involves it inhaling debris, converting it into star projectiles, and launching it at the enemy.

The best thing the Robobot Armor ever did was drill through Star Dream's third form, which would rank as Moon level/possible Planet level, and that left it irrepairably damaged and knocked Kirby out.

 

[Fastsword88]

@Antvasima : I'm fine with the AP changes regarding Nova & Marx, but I'd like to briefly discuss with Unclechairman regarding Sectonia & Star Dream a little more (even though I'm not so active lately).

@Unclechairman : How was it nearly destroyed ? It still fought at its max potential with that "injury". And like I said, 8-B is a completely ridiculous for a final boss who is above everyone else in the game except Kirby. That's Whispy Woods level. And Galacta is scaled from Kirby and Meta, whom he fought several times each, not from Claycia.

I know. If the mech takes after the pilot's powers, then why not scale Robobot armor ?

And like I saidregarding Pop Star : massive planet is massive.

Btw, about Sectonia, who is featless if we ignore scaling from Kirby, shouldn't she scale seeing as she proved a better challenge to Kirbs than, say, Marx who will get downgraded ?

 

[Kirbyelmejor]

I agree with Fastsword

 

[Unclechairman]

Galacta Knight nearly cut it in half, doing more damage to it than the Robobot Armor in Halberd Mode did over the course of an entire battle with a single stroke. It's pause screen description in the True Arena states it activated a new program. The scenario seems to me more like it came back from the brink of total destruction than actually tanking Galacta Knight's attack. Make no mistake; while it ultimately survived, Galacta Knight did huge damage to it, and with just a casual attack, no less. Hence while I'm hesitant to scale it's durability.

I'm not sure what makes Whispy Woods City-Block level. I simply scaled Star Dream's base form to the size of the Halberd, which is admittedly rough at best since the Halberd apparently does not have a consistent size from game to game. Sure, it's above everything else in Robobot (except maybe Galacta Knight), but I'm not sure how much that counts for. We've got the Robobot Armor which can casually punch out cars and buses, but other than that, I don't recall anything else notable in Planet Robobot itself, and I'm hesitant to pull feats from enemies in other games because of the series' inconsistent nature.

Scaling Galacta Knight to Kirby and co. in the way you seem to be implying (MSS Galacta Knight) requires ultimately scaling him to Claycia/Dark Crafter simply because Kirby fought both of them, which is faulty for reasons I've stated repeatedly.

Pause screen description states the Robobot Armor copied Kirby's ability to copy the abilities of his enemies. Nothing to the effect of Kirby actually making the mech more powerful, though Kirby does seem far better at using it than his enemies. And scaling it to Kirby runs into the issue of "Kirby in what game?" because Kirby's showings vary across titles. Are you suggesting it scale to Claycia or Dark Crafter?

As for base Sectonia, the best she has going for her to my knowledge is scaling to an amped Kracko. Granted, I just said I'm hesistant to pull feats/scaling from other games, but I'm willing to make an exception for Kracko because he appears so often and mainly because the pause screen description heavily implies he was being amped by Taranza, as well as the fact that he has several new and powerful attacks. From there, it just remains to be seen what Kracko should be rated as. He either scales to Kirby blasting King Dedede out of his castle or the Megaton Punch characters/feats.

 

[Fastsword88]

Sorry Unclechairman, but I find it impossible to believe that a tier 8 character would survive an attack from a tier 4 character, even if it were a casual attack, even if he was almost destroyed (which isn't the case. The injury is clear, but an almost destroyed machine wouldn't have been able to engage in a whole other fight). This logic of tier 8 vs tier 4 challenges the whole tiering system.

I think the major issue here is how you think Kirby characters should be scaled. If I understand well, because of these games' inconsistent nature, we must doubt every new character and limit how much he can be scaled to others depending on how much he appears. Why make the Kirby verse scaling THIS complicated ?

And Kirby himself isn't as inconsistent as the setting is. Kirby in RtD is the same as the one in PR. It's already established that Kirby is leagues above most other characters in the verse (Examples : He beats Claycia w/o abilities ; Star Dream can't measure his max power and wasn't happy after calculating probability of survival), so here's how we should scale bosses, it's by asking : how much of a fight did the boss put up against Kirby ?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree with what Fastsword. However, I have been kinda inactive lately so I want to know the Marx downgrade counts for Marx Soul or just base Marx?

 

[Ryukama]

I agree with Fast as well. Also it doesn't seem to make sense to me that Kirby himself is to stay at 4-A with no seperate keys, yet villians who have been able to fight on equal grounding with him wouldn't scale.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I really do think we need separate keys for Kirby himself. Just because a game was released after another game doesn't mean it came later in a timeline sense.

 

[Ryukama]

If Kirby had seperate keys and certain villains got scaled to those, that would seem completely fine. But I think it'd be bizarre if we had Kirby be flat out 4-A for everything and then villains who were able to hold their own and almost defeat this supposedly always 4-A character wouldn't scale.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Honestly, I feel like that's much and too specific. Do we do that to any other franchise? I know for a fact Mario, and I think I've seen Zero have it, but in Zero's case, these are eras.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I don't understand why we demand so much consistency from the Kirby series, and yet we give Mario a separate key for Mario Galaxy, a game where he is portrayed on a completely different level than in the other games.

4-A to 3-B is an outlier that is to be taken with a grain of salt, but 7-B/6-C to 3-C earns Mario a separate key? I'd say the Mario series is just as inconsistent as the Kirby series, if not moreso.