Revising Tiamat (and possibly others?) part 2

[Escanor998]

But the planet has many layers separated by Dimensional boundaries ƒñö


But, the Chaos tide was compared to an attack capable of generating enough energy to create a planet. That power was needed to destroy it.

The offensive use of Ars cant create a planet, also he didn't use only Ars to make the Time Travel, he used Ars Almadel Salomonis to gather up the energy (via the singularities that caused such a mess in the history that in some way ended up with the erradication of humanity), Ars Paulina to contain the energy (His own Ars Paulina is like a modified Holy Grail that instead of storing the souls of servants, it gathers the energy produced by the incineration of mankind), and finally his own version of Ars Nova (is something like a Quantum Supercomputer that was used to run the calculations needed to make the time travel)

 

[Escanor998]

But the planet has many layers separated by Dimensional boundaries ƒñö

But, the Chaos tide was compared to an attack capable of generating enough energy to create a planet. That power was needed to destroy it.

Gaia didn't existed while the planet was being created, it was born after the planet stabilized itself

Ah I see what your saying there. I see the point in that. He goes back in time before Gaia existed. I still stand by my point that he is creating a whole new planet instead of fusing with pre mature earth.

That is the case of Ea, it was crystallised during the process of the creation of the planet and because of that it can reveal the planet's bare, true, primordial form

 

[THOK_AST_THOK]

That doesn't really change what i said. Nothing in BB's matrix about her Authority, even in raw version, have anything to do with the Root as in the ÒÇî ÒÇì

 

[XenoBreaker2803]

He said go back 4.6 billion years(which conviently enought is about how old the planet is estimated at.) to the moment the Celestial Body was born and absorb all it energy to create a new planet.

 

[Escanor998]

Ars Almadel Salomonis: The Time of Birth has Come, He is the One who Masters All (Þ¬òþöƒÒü«µÖéÒüìÒüƒÒéîÒéèÒÇüÕàÂÒü»Õà¿ÒüªÒéÆõ┐«ÒéüÒéïÒééÒü«ÒéóÒâ½Òé╣Òâ╗ÒéóÒâ½Òâ×ÒâçÒâ½Òâ╗ÒéÁÒâ¡ÒâóÒâïÒé╣, Tanjō no Toki Kitareri, So wa Subete wo Osameru monoArusu Arumaderu Saromonisu?) is the third Noble Phantasm of Solomo, planned to be used by Goetia to time travel to the genesis of the Earth. It is the "|" of the original sin.[1][2] It appears at first glance to be a ring of light that encircles the Earth.[2] A belt of light that announces mankind's demise. As something that converted the entire human history into heat values, a time travel of vast amounts of years is made possible by collecting, accelerating and converging some hundred millions of this belt of light.[1] Each line of light is said to carry "extreme damage values" that are comparable to an A-rank Noble Phantasm like Excalibur. Nothing on the surface of the planet surpasses the heat value of this Noble Phantasm.[2] When Goetia charges it and focuses its energy into an attack, the beam is described as "a torrent of heat sufficient to penetrate through the planet." Even when Mash Kyrielite successfully blocks it using the spiritual protection of Lord Camelot, the sheer amount of heat is enough to completely evaporate her body through the shield.

Ars Almadel Salomonis floats in the sky above each Singularity, and is estimated to be around the size of North America. Its immerse energy is gathered through the incineration of all humans of an era, accomplished through the Singularities. Although the burning of the Earth can only provide so much energy, the burning of intelligent life forms such as humans and their civilization produces an enormous amount of energy, which is used to fuel this Noble Phantasm. By incinerating all humans of every era over 3,000 years, Goetia is able to gather magical energy that surpasses that of the genesis of Earth. By gathering, accelerating and converging the heat, it allows time reversal of great scale. (this notes that it doesn't incinerate the surface of the planet, but rather, it creates the singularities to destroy humanity and gather energy)

By using this Noble Phantasm as part of his Retrogression Canal - Genesis Light-Year plan, Goetia planned to return to the time of Earth's formation and recreate the Earth so that the concept of "death" does not exist. Such a feat is close to True Magic, with the Noble Phantasm being similar to Aoko Aozaki's Fifth Magic[3]

Edit:

Nobody is questioning Goetia's NP power, but the 5-B version is not aplicable as an attack

 

[Paul_Frank]

I will say this again

Refusing to say that strange fake was referring to the planet when it said world just to get the lowest possible rating is asinine

If you want to argue that they meant the top layer, which as haxman has stated are not separated by location but by actual dimensions with the reverse side being specifically described as higher dimensional, then anyone can just as easily argue that when they said world they meant Alaya.

World in the nasuverse is used to refer to one of three things and those are the planet earth, the actual being gaia or alaya

If you want to say that in strange fake they said world not planet so its clearly just the top layer,which again is separated by dimensions not distance, then I can just as easily say they said world not planet so they meant Akasha and wank Ea instead of downplaying it.

Also Kiara growing to the size of a planet and using it as a sex toy is not just visuals its not an illusion either its literally her np. Same with her fgo np where she ends up the center of the solar system and dwarfs Jupiter so you cant just disregard any arguements based on kiara by saying she isnt actually planet level because her size was just visuals.

Oh and as a side not savers use Buddhist concepts like Nayuta and Muroutaisuu (10^60 and 10^68 respectively) to display the size of the portion of existence they are able to govern with the universe being a great trichiliocosm made of one thousand medium trichiliocosms which are made of one thousand galaxies and each small trichiliocosm is made of three thousand worlds

So now to explain why I say the "layers" are separated by dimensions not just distance

During the age of the gods the world followed laws based on mystery and phantasmal species ruled and roamed about. After Sefar's invasion in 12000 B.C. the damage she did caused the influence of the gods to go down and humanity's to increase. But you guys already knew all that because this is what the wiki most of you are reading is telling you anyway.

However what you keep ignoring is that there are statements that the gods are forced to live in a higher dimension. After losing their power and becoming divine spirits they were forced to live within a higher dimension. Guess where the things from the age of gods were stated to have gone, yup the reverse side of the world. So thanks to the descriptions of gods living in a higher dimension combined with the fact they are stated to reside in the reverse side this is pretty clear cut that the reverse side is a higher dimension than the top side. This means that the top side is it's own special dimension that is however many d nasuverse is stated and the reverse side is that plus at least one via being higher d. Also the anchors dont disprove this their purpose is to stop things on the reverse side from restarting the age of the gods

 

[JBennett]

Wouldn't that make Sieg higher dimensional being when he transformed into Fafnir? He is capable of traversing to the Reverse side easily.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I'd assume so,or at the least he is somehow able to travel to a higher dimension something shown and stated to be nearly impossible for even heroic spirits and completely impossible for everyone else

Also escanor can you chill out with the warpath against the nasuverse at least let us finish one arguement before bringing up 5 new arguements and opening a new crt

 

[JBennett]

Well Jean is able to in Apocrapha so it's not impossible.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Heoric spirits are souls, and I do have scans of souls being a higher Dimensional existence as well. That, and the throne of heroes where they exist after battles. Isn't that a higher planes if existence? It's also common for low tier characters to traverse to higher dimensions in fiction.

Editt: I will fact check the goetia stuff when I get some time freed up.

 

[Escanor998]

I will say this again
Refusing to say that strange fake was referring to the planet when it said world just to get the lowest possible rating is asinine

If you want to argue that they meant the top layer, which as haxman has stated are not separated by location but by actual dimensions with the reverse side being specifically described as higher dimensional, then anyone can just as easily argue that when they said world they meant Alaya.

World in the nasuverse is used to refer to one of three things and those are the planet earth, the actual being gaia or alaya

If you want to say that in strange fake they said world not planet so its clearly just the top layer,which again is separated by dimensions not distance, then I can just as easily say they said world not planet so they meant Akasha and wank Ea instead of downplaying it.

Also Kiara growing to the size of a planet and using it as a sex toy is not just visuals its not an illusion either its literally her np. Same with her fgo np where she ends up the center of the solar system and dwarfs Jupiter so you cant just disregard any arguements based on kiara by saying she isnt actually planet level because her size was just visuals.

Oh and as a side not savers use Buddhist concepts like Nayuta and Muroutaisuu (10^60 and 10^68 respectively) to display the size of the portion of existence they are able to govern with the universe being a great trichiliocosm made of one thousand medium trichiliocosms which are made of one thousand galaxies and each small trichiliocosm is made of three thousand worlds

So now to explain why I say the "layers" are separated by dimensions not just distance

During the age of the gods the world followed laws based on mystery and phantasmal species ruled and roamed about. After Sefar's invasion in 12000 B.C. the damage she did caused the influence of the gods to go down and humanity's to increase. But you guys already knew all that because this is what the wiki most of you are reading is telling you anyway.

However what you keep ignoring is that there are statements that the gods are forced to live in a higher dimension. After losing their power and becoming divine spirits they were forced to live within a higher dimension. Guess where the things from the age of gods were stated to have gone, yup the reverse side of the world. So thanks to the descriptions of gods living in a higher dimension combined with the fact they are stated to reside in the reverse side this is pretty clear cut that the reverse side is a higher dimension than the top side. This means that the top side is it's own special dimension that is however many d nasuverse is stated and the reverse side is that plus at least one via being higher d. Also the anchors dont disprove this their purpose is to stop things on the reverse side from restarting the age of the gods

Only during the age of gods the layers were accesible through normal means, but after that, most things were put on the reverse side (a metaphysical higher dimension) that is overlapping with the normal reality

Do you know what stacked realities means? because thats how the World works, also higher dimension in nasuverse just means a place that is virtually impossible to interact with, not an infinite level of trascendence. Also the pillars fasten them together so that they don't strip out of the surface of the world

 

[Paul_Frank]

Well Jean is able to in Apocrapha so it's not impossible.

Thats why I said almost impossible

It also took her infinite attempts over an infnite amount of time from the throne of heroes which is detached from the time axis to do that

 

[XenoBreaker2803]

Don't we have to prove that how their using the word higher dimension fits with our standards of what it means first.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The verse makes it abundantly clear they are in a different real, completely separated from earth. That much to me is obvious.

 

[Paul_Frank]

@escanor can you show me where in the nasuverse higher dimension means a hard to reach place and not an actual higher dimension

The pillars are specifically stated to be there to prevent those on the reverse side from leaving their higher dimension and taking over again, restarting the age of gods

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I posted scans of Avalon being apart of a layer, and it's the lowest possible layer According to my understanding. I also.posted the encloypedia entry of Avalon being 6th Dimensional and blocks out parrellel world stuff. That was on the previous thread.

 

[JBennett]

Avalon is apart of the Reverse Side It's not a seperate Layer. Also the Avalon you are refering to is the Noble Phantasme not the location plus the higher dimensional defence was already disprooven in a previous thread.

Besides The Reverse Side is Below the Common Sense of Mankind not above it.

 

[THOK_AST_THOK]

The word used wasn't even higher-dimension, it's higher-order (whatever that mean)

 

[Escanor998]

Tiamat is a 4-D being made from imaginary numbers, yet she is not destroying the ******* universe, BB is described as a 5-D being and CCC wipes the target along with the dimension trapped within it. Velver Ark creating an 8-D barrier and Saber Venus and Amaterasu breaking it, all those arguments were already debunked a long time ago, unless you're saying you want 3-A kiara, High 1-C Ultimate ones, High 2-A BB, don't bring the arguments of dimensions on fateverse because there doesn't work like that. Hell, a pure soul is higher D, so a servant eating a soul could be an Universal feat

Or even better, any Spiritron Hacker would be a higher dimensional being then

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

@jBennet each layer is separated by a defined higher Dimensional boundry. is what im trying to say. The reverse side of world is stated to be an alternate dimension by Astolfo's NP description where phantasmal sepcies live. Which is separated from earth by a thin fabric.

@Escanor.... you could say Fate-verse has its own higher dimensional theory that doens't follow any theory currently used irl....

 

[JBennett]

You do know the Reverse Side is simply the Reality where the Age of Gods is still strong, a time where the Human world was still briming with Mystery, the concept that fuels all supernatrual beings including Divine Spirits. They didn't retreat due to being physically weakened but rather due to the decline of Mystery.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Is that for me?????? because i didn't say anything about them retreating due to them getting weaker????

 

[JBennett]

This is the exact reason why I said to create a different thread if you wanted to bring dimensions in Nasuverse, all you are currently doing is takeing up space on a topic that has nothing to do with 5-B Ea. Your not even trying to defend or disproven the downgrades just adding your own seperate topic for something that is not connected to the current subject. Please make a new thread.

 

[Escanor998]

Can we start the Graze Time or do we need more statements in universe?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Did you miss where on the pervious thread people were arguing that the layers are all connected in the same space on earth? Did you miss where people tried to say Gilgamesh with EA is multi-continent because of that? That is why i brought up dimensions in the nasuverse. That is not taking up space. this completely relevant to gilgamesh whom scales to tiamat as i stated. I firmly believe in planet level gilgamesh with Ea.

 

[JBennett]

You mea 'Grace Period'?

Anything from Prom yet?

 

[Escanor998]

At best (if we scale hax to AP, that is something we shouldn't do) then it would be High 6-A Ea if we ignore that is hax because of its concept (also Ea scales to Ea and nothing more)

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Reality cutting, spatial cutting on a planet wide scale.

 

[Escanor998]

You mea 'Grace Period'?
Anything from Prom yet?

Yes, its the first time i made a serious thread to do a big change about one my favourite verses, and also as people doesn't seem convinced, we should start voting, no?

 

[JBennett]

Then stick to it then, you arguring for Higher dimensional Layers won't help people believe in Planet Level Ea.

Just because we mention about the Layers doesn't mean we were automatically talking about Higher Dimension, many other verses have similar concepts to this one; To aru's Phases and Touho's OuterWorlds are very similar to Nasu's Layers yet we don't clasify them as Higher Dimensional. There are probably others but those are the ones I'm familiar with

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

How? The point is that the reverse side is not on earth. It is completely sealed off. So, Gilgamesh's Ea is not refering to only the surface of the planet.

Its still completely relevant to the topic as the topic of the thread pretains to tiamat, and Gilgamesh scales tiamat.

Edit: and the poitn of higher dimensions is to show that i disagree with the Layers being on the same earth. I completely disagree with the layers sharing the same space as earth. Being on the same planet. The higher dimensions i mentioned are a boundry that separates them. Therefore, furhter proving Ea is not affecting only the surface of the planet, but the whole planet.

 

[JBennett]

Yes, its the first time i made a serious thread to do a big change about one my favourite verses, and also as people doesn't seem convinced, we should start voting, no?

I would suggests makeing a sepperate CTR to state the Changes for Ea with the explanations and proofs, that way we can keep the voting away from the descusion, safes up room here in the end.

 

[JBennett]

As I said before the Reverse Side is the World(reality) that retains the laws of the Age of God, a point in history were human order was at it's lowest and phantasimal beast ruled the planet, human beings were living on the planet during that time Herc, Gil, and Medea were all humans beings that lived during the Age of God. It is a part of the earth and a part of the Human world

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I thought you believed that was derailing the topic????

It is only a part of earth during the age of gods. It became metaphysical and became separated from earth when the age of man ushered in.

 

[Escanor998]

The people downgraded should be:

BB: from 5-A to 5-B (has control over the moon cell and can recreate the earth using save files. With CCC she can rewrite reality like a 3-D print on a planetary scale), possibly higher (holds Potnia Theron, the full manifestation of the authority of the Original Earth Mother Goddess)

Kiara: from 5-A to 5-B (absorbed BB and her alter egos before gaining access to the moon cell's core to become a devil Bodhisattva)

Prime Gil and Enkidu: from 5-A to al least High 7-A, likely much higher (should be comparable to King Hassan) (also we'll need to change the tier of all mythological formal wear servants from 5-A to unknown, likely 5-B because of fighting a massively restrained Kiara while being backed up by the moon cell)

Quetz: from 5-A to al least 6-C (was stated to be way superior to Gilgamesh on raw power and is the strongest of the three goddesses; can deflect An Gal Ta Kigal She with moderated difficulty), from unknown to 6-B with Piedra del sol (was stated to be able to instantly vaporize Uruk and managed to slightly injure Tiamat), possibly High 6-B with Xiuhcoatl (she stated that it was strong as the meteor that killed the dinosaurs, but there is no evidence backing up the claim) and we should remove her 4-C key because she is not a real cosmic god like Amaterasu

Goetia (as beast I): from At least 5-A to Likely 6-B, possibly higher (was compared to Tiamat, but somewhat weaker)

Tiamat: From At least 5-A to At least 6-B (Effortlessly swatted away the efforts of the Three Goddesses, tanked An Gal Ta Kigal She without a single scratch, and tanked Piedra del Sol when used at half of its max power with very little damage. Her Chaos Tide would have taken control of Babylonian's underworld that was described as being as wide as Mesopotamia if she hasn't been stopped by Merlin dissabling her authority), possibly High 6-B (Tanked Xiuhcoatl that Quetz described as being as strong as the meteor that killed the dinosaurs), likely higher upon full manifestation. Ignores durability with the Chaos Tide. 7-A to 6-C with Lahmus

Ea: we should remove full power key and instead put this:

6-C with blast (it's full power outputwas stated to be able to match and even surpass excalibur), Ignores durability with Space-Time Dislocation. High 6-A with Hax against pocket realities (can destroy Reality Marbles and the World of Human Awareness to show the bare face of the planet without layers, but takes a time in doing so)


That should be all, no? or there is more?

 

[JBennett]

Fate/Apocrypha material - Encyclopedia: Other Side of the World [Others], p.173 [T]

Reverse Side of the World [Others] The place where the evil dragon Fafnir finally arrived at the very end of the novels. The Phantasmal Races, having understood that the Age of the Gods was over, ceded the Earth's surface to humans and moved to this place. The world where humans currently live (including the laws of physics) is like a fabric that thinly extends across the surface of the planet. Beneath that fabric exist the planet known as "Earth". On the other hand, the Reverse Side of the World is the world as it was before humans lived there… that is, the fabric of the era where Phantasmal Races strode the land. In other words, the Earth is the bottommost layer of the planet, and it is covered by the "Reverse Side of the World"—the place where the laws of the "world" as it once was reigns, and covering that is the "Present World".
In the Reverse Side of the World, the Holy Grail cannot activate its function of "using the Third Sorcery". In the first place, that function was for the sake of granting Shirou Kotomine's wish. In other words, it is programmed to target humans, and doesn't count Phantasmal Races as valid targets.
Jeanne d'Arc is a Heroic Spirit who, from the start, lost her human body long ago. Because of that, the chances of her reaching the Reverse Side weren't completely zero… However, that is merely the kind of "not zero" like, as a comparison, somehow managing to pass through a wall with the tunnel effect, but the Throne where Heroic Spirits Exist is cut off from the time axis, so she effectively had an infinite number of attempts to try.


Taken from the Apocrypha source matireal its states that the reverse side between the physical planet and the Common Sense of mankind, if Layers are a sense of dimesional space as you said, and the common sense of mankind is still 3D, the by your words the the dimensions would scale by 3, 4, then 3 again. These layers are local only the the planet Earth and are more akin to Reality Marbles created by the planet as dictaded by the major influence; Phantasmal Beast for AoG and Humans for AoM.

If these Layers were full blown dimensions then they would extend past the earths and encompus the entier universe but they don't so they can't be dimension as of how we define them. And no saying they could have a different meaning then our own would defeat the purpos of calling them physical Dimension in the first place. You don't call Magic science just because it doesn't fallow our definition of Magic.

 

[StrongClick]

Excellent, excellent! I've made it in time! Also, hey, Archaman! You gotta get more creative! If we're facing the primordial sea, then all we gotta do is to find something that'll minimize the harms living beings could cause! So, for this kinda thing, it's my turn to shine! After all, the elegant title of "Magus of Flowers" isn't just for show! (Merlin appears!) Romani: Eeeh!! Mer-lin?!! How?! Was it a resummon? No, no no no! Merlin: Hahaha! That would be impossible. How could you resummon me? It's really much simpler than that. See, I am the original, the true, the one-and-only Merlin! ...Hey, come on, I did sprint all the way from Avalon over to here! Fou: Fou!! Gudako: Could you just "run" all the way over here? Merlin: Ah, well, if humanity is burned up and the earth becomes to its original state, then I can technically pop over using the land of the fairies! After all, you know I super, super dislike sad farewells! Even if I'm doing this impetuously, how can I say goodbye to you all forever? So I gave the conditions of my vow a tiny tweak, and so I managed to get out of that tower where I was being shut-in! Of course I'm here to meet up with you again!

Proof that Avalon isn't in a separate dimension, Merlin could get to Babylonia in FGO from Avalon by running and cheating with his vow

 

[JBennett]

seems good, they seem more accurate and less speculitive when compared to the previous scaling. Though the High 7-A might change depending on what happens with the Excalibur feat.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No to all of Escanor's proposed downgrades.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

This is taken directly from the same encloypedia source you used. This is astolfo's noble phantasm from Apocrpyhra and i did post this can before.

"Otherworldly Phantasmal Horse. The third cheat Noble Phantasm used by Rider of "Black," Astolfo. There are cases when a Griffin, a Monstrous Beast, reproduces with a mare, which would normally be its food. What's born as a result from this is the Monstrous Beast known as a Hippogriff, which has the upper body of an eagle and the lower body of a horse.
However, it is an impossible creature which normally should not exist. This is because it should be impossible for a child to be born between a Griffon and a horse, which are predator and prey. The Hippogriff existed only as a hypothetical and philosophical symbol. A Hipppogriff appears in the story of "Orlando Furioso" (The Frenzy of Roland), where Astolfo and his comrades also appear. This story includes the theme of "The Hippogriff makes an appearance here, so no matter how strange it may seem, there is nothing that is truly impossible." In "Orlando Furioso," Astolfo even goes to the moon in order to save Roland.
The Hippogriff that Astolfo rides is a "Phantasmal Beast" in the true sense, since its very existence is uncertain. As a result, when it is released as a Noble Phantasm, the Hippogriff can jump over to a different dimension, though only for an instant.
That dimension is the home of the Phantasmal Species, where only beings that are purely non-physical souls can go to. It is the Reverse Side of the World."