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Revising Tiamat (and possibly others?) part 2

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Matthew Schroeder said:
It would literally destroy the planet
Click to expand...
Could you repost the main evidence/reasoning for it being planetary again? I thought we debunked stragefake's statements as they're from unreliable narrators and also use World as opposed to planet. I remember there was something mentioned about Prisma Illya?
 
Unless you can give us specific details on the size of the Common sense of Mankind with Scans to proof it we can't safely go anything beyond High 6-A since its been stated that it thinnly wraps around the Planets Surface.
 
Its hax, not AP, Nasu said multiple times that the raw firepower of Ea is comparable to excalibur, and it destroying the world of human awareness is something about it's concept of truth and being older than Gaia
 
StrongClick said:
Matthew Schroeder said:
destroying world in nasuverse is more impressive than destroyig planet in most verses
Click to expand...
Can you provide your reasoning for thinking this?
Click to expand...
Well, destroying completely both the planet and Gaia would be more impressive (because of the reality warping countermeasures put by the counter force) but Ea can't do that, at best it would destroy all layers and then proceed to be kicked by the counter force as it repairs everything
 
Escanor998 said:
Well, destroying completely both the planet and Gaia would be more impressive (because of the reality warping countermeasures put by the counter force) but Ea can't do that, at best it would destroy all layers and then proceed to be kicked by the counter force as it repairs everything
Click to expand...
Mhmm, do you have The EA sources/descriptions in the material books? Just so I can post quotes for everyone to see.
 
Ramesses the Sun King said:
There is no "concept of truth" please stop.
Click to expand...
Actually yes, the blade holds the concept of "revealing the truth of creation", the void it creates is that. Actually the concept of truth that Ea has is the miracle to reveal the genesis (the planet's primordial form)

The blade knows the true form of the planet (without any layers) and its method of attack is a "teaching" that bestows knowledge about the planet's primordial form, eroding away reality to pierce the very nature of the world to show an abyss capable of crushing all creation that expands and sucks the entire world before returning it to it's primordial form where any type of life is objetively impossible
 
It was as if the planet itself had come into that location, and funneled a gigantic amount of
mana into it.
It was enough to delude one into thinking that Gaia, the Counter Force of the planet, was
opposing Gilgamesh's power to destroy the World.
----
In the instant that an attack to destroy Eternity drew near—
The planet sang.
A gigantic amount of mana gushed forth at Enkidu's feet, and moved to swallow Enuma Elish head-on.
----
As the King of Heroes had spoken to Ea, so too did Enkidu speak to the massive amount of mana engulfing the Void cracks in space. He spoke directly to the planet.
"I am a weapon. Wield me as you please."
Instantly, enough mana surged forth to make the earlier flow seem like a mere trickle. Several times more mana geysered from the earth's surface, becoming a cyclone of energy enveloping Enkidu's body.
Then, the energy became a titanic lance of light to pierce Heaven and Earth, with the Heroic Spirit as its core.
----
Riiight.
 
The Star of Creation that Split Heaven and Earth [Noble Phantasm] Enuma Elish.
The cutting of space with the Sword of Rupture, Ea.
Air pressure faults, compressed and smashed against each other, become a pseudo-fault in time and space that pulverizes all who oppose it.
With output matching or even exceeding Excalibur, it is without a doubt the sword that "cut the world".
Strictly speaking, the Noble Phantasm is actually Ea, while Enuma Elish is the name of Ea's maximum output state.
…By the way, the sword's drill shape is modeled after the bedrock excavators used when making underwater tunnels.
Though normally you'd think of a drill as something that tapers down to a point like a spear, the drills used to bore out enormous holes actually look more like numerous overlapping gears.
The way the blades rotate individually and shave away at the bedrock… just imagining it is so cool!


Gilgamesh's favored Noble Phantasm, the Sword of Rupture Ea. Of all his countless Noble Phantasms, this is one of the few that he trusts implicitly.
The blade is divided into three parts, all of which rotate individually. Honestly, calling it a sword at all is a bit of a farce. When it goes into overload, gaseous energy shoots out of the seams between the segments.
The space-cutting technique fired from this overloaded state is called "Enuma Elish", and boasts destructive power on the same level as Excalibur.
The name "Ea" is taken from one of the gods appearing in Babylonian mythology, of which the legend of Gilgamesh is a part, and the name "Enuma Elish" comes from the Babylonian creation myth.


The Star of Genesis which Separates the Heaven and Earth ― Enuma Elish Rank: EX
Type: Anti-World
Range: 1~99
Maximum Targets: 1000 Persons

The sword that cuts and divides the World, with output matching or even exceeds Artoria's Excalibur. Its power will further increase given the support of Noble Phantasms within Gate of Babylon. More correctly speaking, "Sword of Rupture ― Ea" is the Noble Phantasm, "Enuma Elish" is the state under which Sword of Rupture ― Ea unleashes its maximum output. By generating wind pressure strata, the attack crushes the enemies by simulating spatial rends. In addition, the names "Sword of Rupture ― Ea" and "Enuma Elish" are all given by Gilgamesh. They are thought to be references to the Great God Ea (Enki) of the Mesopotamian and Babylonian myths, and the Genesis Epic of the Babylonian myth, Enuma Elish.
The most powerful sword that cannot be duplicated by Unlimited Blade Work. Gilgamesh calls it "something that knows the hellish planet before genesis".
The three cylindrical blades spin in different directions, generating air pressure strata. Its power will not be neutralised even when colliding with Excalibur.


Enuma Elish.
The creation of a spatial severance (þ®║ÚûôÕêçµû¡, kuukan setsuda?) by the Sword of Separatio (õ╣ûÚøóÕëú, Kairi Ke?), Ea. Compressed (Õ£ºþ©«ÒüòÒéî, ashuku-sare?), intertwined (þÁíÒü┐ÕÉêÒüå, karami-au?) stratifications (µû¡Õ▒ñ, dansou?) of wind (Úó¿Õ£º, fuuatsu?, lit. "wind pressure") become as a virtual (µô¼õ╝╝þÜäÒü¬, gijiteki-na?, lit. "quasi-, pseudo-, virtual") dislocation of space-time (µÖéþ®║µû¡Õ▒ñ, jikuu dansou?, lit. "space-time stratification / fault / dislocation"), annihilating any who would stand in opposition.
Aside from holding an armor class (ÒéóÒâ╝Òâ×Òâ╝Òé»Òâ®Òé╣?) of sufficient magnitude to resist Purging (Õ»¥þ▓øµ©à, tai-shukusei?, lit. "Anti-Purging"), or enacting mutual Negation (þø©µ«║, sousatsu?) via an attack that inflicts the same order of damage, the damage rendered cannot be defended against.


Actually, the sword's true nature is shown in the Fate Zero LN and hollow ataraxia along with many mentions in the games, but i only found these
 
"It hailed from an era more ancient than humans, older than even the planet itself. it was a rariet among rarities, a pure manifestation of the power wielded by gods to enact genesis. "

This is saying that Ea had the power to create the earth. This same page 121 of volume 1 of strange fake also talked about anti-world noble phantasms . Which is also in this scan above.

Servant Enkindu is weaker than living enindu.

The planet itself was giving power to Enkindu to match gilgamesh. The counter force, and gaia are also mentioned within the scan as well. Tine the master of Gilgamesh is someone who can draw upon the earth with leylines for more mana. Which is similar to what Enkindu does. He stated "it was enough to delude one into thinking the counter force, and gaia were opposing gilgamesh."

Ea does have hax of causing spatial cuts. or cuts in space. Enkindu is capable of stitching this cuts back together.

Pale rider when observing the fight said "The world was born, and destroyed seven times over."

This is perhaps the most irrefutable. The fate/strange fake noble phantasm description for Enkindu's EA. "In response to things that threaten the the destruction of the planet, or humanity the power is increased. " Kingu was massively amped when holding back tiamat due to both happening. Gilgamesh was threatening the planet based upon context as i shown above.
 
So this was word for word what I commented on the previous thread.

I've been informed that there's a number of issues with those quotes, though. For one, it just claims that the energy opposing Ea came from the planet, or leylines in the ground so to speak. It also doesn't contradict the distinction of World and planet from how it was explained to me.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
It was as if the planet itself had come into that location, and funneled a gigantic amount of
mana into it.
It was enough to delude one into thinking that Gaia, the Counter Force of the planet, was
opposing Gilgamesh's power to destroy the World.
----
In the instant that an attack to destroy Eternity drew near—
The planet sang.
A gigantic amount of mana gushed forth at Enkidu's feet, and moved to swallow Enuma Elish head-on.
----
As the King of Heroes had spoken to Ea, so too did Enkidu speak to the massive amount of mana engulfing the Void cracks in space. He spoke directly to the planet.
"I am a weapon. Wield me as you please."
Instantly, enough mana surged forth to make the earlier flow seem like a mere trickle. Several times more mana geysered from the earth's surface, becoming a cyclone of energy enveloping Enkidu's body.
Then, the energy became a titanic lance of light to pierce Heaven and Earth, with the Heroic Spirit as its core.
----
Riiight.
Click to expand...
they were borrowing power from the counter force, that is just enough energy to block the attack and nothing else, also Ea was ******* the layer, not destroying the whole planet (but if enough time is given it will completely collapse the world of human awarenes on a few minutes)
 
That's headcanon.

Enuma Elish is literally just compressed wind that cuts space-time and reality/the texture. The "truth" is the planet's primordial form that's it.

There is no "teaching" or bestowing knowledge. That's just flowery language.
 
Also:

"Enuma Elish: O Humans, Let Us Restrain The Gods Above
Rank: A++
Type: Anti-Purge Noble Phantasm
Range: 0~999
Maximum Targets: 1000 People
Ability of Enkidu's to transform its own body into a Divine Construct.
The Counter Forces known as Alaya and Gaia's powers flow into a keystone made of light. Then giant amounts of energy are transformed into a form that the world can recognize and pierces the opponent in one hit. In response to things that threaten the destruction of the planet or humanity, the power is increased."
"Enuma Elish: Star of Creation that Separated Sky and Earth: EX
Not exactly the Noble Phantasm name but refers to the sword of separation Ea's full release form. It is considered the planet creating weapon that in the distant past separated the sky and earth. Through compression via alternating inversion a windstorm beyond human understanding faults, dislocating space and time pulverizing the target along with the world."
And this
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The planet itself was giving power to Enkindu to match gilgamesh. The counter force, and gaia are also mentioned within the scan as well. Tine the master of Gilgamesh is someone who can draw upon the earth with leylines for more mana. Which is similar to what Enkindu does. He stated "it was enough to delude one into thinking the counter force, and gaia were opposing gilgamesh."

Pale rider when observing the fight said "The world was born, and destroyed seven times over."
Click to expand...
First in formost no it was not the Pale Rider who said that so you never read either the LN or the manga since it clearly stated in both that it was Shamat that said thatm who as far as we are aware have no real knowledge on the cosmology or the Planet.

Just becuase Enkidu used the Mana from the planet to fuel his Enuma doesn't mean the Planet used a 5-A amount of Mana to counter act Ea.
 
So what? The quote is clearly informing us about the world and the power. This random assumption that the character was incorrect simply because it disagrees with your headcanon is nuts.

Not my point at all. I am proving 5-B Ea / Enuma Elish, which is consistent. Extra/CCC Gil is another story. He was amped by the Moon Cell as were all the other servants.
 
Ramesses and Escanor say, there's nothing really suggesting that the "World" referred to is the planet. Also this seem to be a manga adaptation of the LN and none of those quotes really say planet busting at all.
 
The manga is still acceptable as Fate doesn't have the same canon laws as something like Bleach would.

And just because World can mean something else, does not mean that that's what it means every time.

And planet was used too.
 
Then actually show us Ea destroying a physical planet then, we know it doesn't always mean that everytime but you still need to proof that at that moment World=Planet.
 
He displays more of its true nature in Fate/hollow ataraxia, Fate/Zero, and Fate/strange fake. Showing its power as an "Anti-World" weapon, it attacks everything in sight with a single strike. It cannot be said that what the blade cuts down is limited simply to "the enemy" as it is not a matter of aiming it, and it is impossible to even discuss as to whether it will hit its target or the practicality of the force behind it. Grinding at the laws of space with its power, it creates a rip in space that extends from not only the earth, but also to the sky and atmosphere. It is a crack that distorts space to pierce the very nature of the World itself to show the "Truth". All that uses the cut space as a foundation is swallowed and crushed by the void, and the dazzling light only continues to grow as it continues to complete the destruction. Its use in a fight is not something that can be called a battle, but rather the wrath of nature itself

Performing the miracle of genesis, something that reveals creation - the beginning of everything, the attack opens an abyss capable of crushing all of creation, and the center of the storm is not calm, but rather a hole to hell itself that returns all that enters its realm to the nothingness from which it originated. The wind pressure creates a vacuum that takes all things with form, the land, the atmosphere, and the sky, into the whirling void. The tumult of genesis takes everything that was nothing more than chaos which could not form any meaning, and creates a new truth that divides and distinguishes Heaven, Sea, and Earth. Within the darkness where everything is returned to nothingness, only Ea is left to shine with brilliance like a Star of Creation amidst the destruction, the first thing illuminating the new world

Gilgamesh claims that the sword "knows the truth" of the World where it once existed, and by using its power, it is able to bestow its knowledge upon others. As it is "The Sword That Cut the World Apart", he calls it "something that knows the hellish planet before genesis", the planet's primordial form before heaven and earth were split, where it was a land filled with naught but lava and gas and a hell of scorching heat and intense cold. Referring to it as hell, Gilgamesh states that it is the source of all legends of the land of the dead. The memory of the time before the existence of the planet, a place and time when organic existence had been impossible, is something possessed by all organisms, but it is no longer found in the imaginations or spoken memories of people. It is the first memory of life that is a genetically inherent and repressed knowledge which can only be shown to those looking upon the sword


What it does is open a rift that erodes the current layer until there is nothing left, showing the true nature of the world as nothing more than a hell that cannot allow any type of life
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The manga is still acceptable as Fate doesn't have the same canon laws as something like Bleach would.</s>
Click to expand...
I'd assume Fate would follow our policy of Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary cano, though.

Matthew Schroeder said:
And just because World can mean something else, does not mean that that's what it means every time.
Click to expand...
It was pointed out that the Japanese used from World is inherently different than those used for planet. The main issue is that we haven't really found anything that contradicts the established distinction.

Matthew Schroeder said:
And planet was used too.
Click to expand...
Going off of strangefake, the quotes I posted were poor evidence looking back at this. Many of the quotes were from the masters in the war who were mostly speaking in metaphor and even then didn't directly equate the two, and even the narrator quotes don't associate the two. Planet is used to describe what is powering Enkidu's attack, World is used to describe what Ea is threatening to destroy. There isn't any overlap, tbh.
 
I agree with Dargoo, Manga isnt really acceptable for proof when LN/source material is present like we treat other verses.
 
After reviewing both arguments I'll have to lean towards the downgrades unfortunately despite how much I like 5-B Nasuverse. There just seems to be a lot more going against the Strongest Servants and Co being 5-B.
 
Looking at the manga scan though we could probably calculate what is shown on the surface of the planet to see if it's consistent with discussions.

No clue how I'd go about evaluating it though.
 
Since it seems like only Mat is the only person being vocal about the Dissagreement I'm just going to state what I think Ea should, or at lest something to start it off, before heading off.

At Lest High 7-A Likely far higher, Possible 6-A with Anti-World Nature (is capable of destroying the World but True Nature makes it difficult to quanitfy the precise output, Opens a whole in reality and destorts everything else around it.)
 
My counter argument that feels forgotten: Regarding the layers


Avalon is mentioned to be a texture.

Avalon is an overlapping earth.

Avalon is 6th dimensional

Astolfo's Noble Phantasm description directly states the "Reverse Side Of the World" is an alternate dimension. This dimension is the home of phantasmal species. Which is directly stated to be the "Reverse Side of the World." This is all directly stated in his description here.

This is "The Reverse side of the World " description.

____

As i said earlier there is countless statements of the Gods existing in a higher dimension , and being a higher existence.

Ishtar explains that During the age of Gods. The underworld was literally a layer beneath the earth at one point in time, but at the end of "The age of Gods." it became metaphyiscal.

____

Also, i can't find the talk about layers in Fate/Grand Order NA in camelot arc.

___

In summary, the layers are alternate dimensions and overlapping worlds separated by a defined dimensional boundry.


_____


My counter argument regarding Gilgamesh:

I took scans from Strange fake themselves along with a link and page number.

"It hailed from an era more ancient than humans, older than even the planet itself. it was a rariet among rarities, a pure manifestation of the power wielded by gods to enact genesis. "

This is saying that Ea had the power to create the earth. This same page 121 of volume 1 of strange fake also talked about anti-world noble phantasms . Which is also in this scan above.

Servant Enkindu is weaker than living enindu.

The planet itself was giving power to Enkindu to match gilgamesh. The counter force, and gaia are also mentioned within the scan as well. Tine the master of Gilgamesh is someone who can draw upon the earth with leylines for more mana. Which is similar to what Enkindu does. He stated "it was enough to delude one into thinking the counter force, and gaia were opposing gilgamesh."

Ea does have hax of causing spatial cuts. or cuts in space. Enkindu is capable of stitching this cuts back together.

Pale rider when observing the fight said "The world was born, and destroyed seven times over."

This is perhaps the most irrefutable. The fate/strange fake noble phantasm description for Enkindu's EA. "In response to things that threaten the the destruction of the planet, or humanity the power is increased. " Kingu was massively amped when holding back tiamat due to both happening. Gilgamesh was threatening the planet based upon context as i shown above.


_____


My awful summary:


To me, the layers are separated Dimensions. They cannot be used to downgrade Gilgamesh. Fate/strange fake Gilgamesh is clearly going to bust the planet if it was not for super powered Enkindu.

I'll come back with links later, but I made the same case with links to scans in the previous thread.
 
The title should be changed to "nasuverse revisions" considering how this is going lol. And I copy pasted the above with my arguments from the last thread.
 
I strongly disagree with this myself, not just Matt. Unfortunately, I am already tired of this topic and don't feel like being too vocal about it.

However, I will say this only once. Stop with the insults, snide comments, and mob mentalities. I will erase this thread to the No-Zone if it continues.
 
.Sera EX said:
However, I will say this only once. Stop with the insults, snide comments, and mob mentalities. I will erase this thread to the No-Zone if it continues.
Click to expand...
We are not being rude or being insulting. All we are doing is giving proof that Ea should not be 5-A and asking Mat to give more proof that it should be 5-A.
 
Velox suggested otherwise, but okay. As long as things remain civil.
 
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