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Revising Tiamat (and possibly others?) part 2

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If they were completely separate from earth then I fail to see how Rhongomyniad and the other pillars fastening the Human texture to the World being pulled and leading to the World of the Human Awareness to be undone would cause the Reverse Side of the World to be revealed.
 
TheUpgradeManHaHaxD said:
Do you agree that they are not applicable in downgrading gilgamesh?
Click to expand...
Yes they are applicable since Ea is is shown to affect the Human World/Reality rather then the physical planet itself.
 
Think of them similar to different Reality Marbles created by the Planet itself, both of them originated from the Planet, are base on certain rules/ Laws of the dominante individual/s like other RM are base on, and beings from outside of the Planet, like the Alien God or Amatarasu, can't be influenced by the World and are beyond anything the World can offer.
 
I'd liked to point out that a Dragon tried to dig to the Reverse Side of the World and died creating Spirit Grave Albion which the Clock Tower is built on top of, this info is from Lord El-Melloi II Case Files.
 
Taken from the Encloypedia/click me


(
"Marble Phantasm
Imagination Realization. As the name suggests, it is the ability to manifest anything you can imagine. I really wish I could do this.
It is the ability possessed by elementals, which are the sense of touch of the natural world. By connecting their will directly to the world, they are able to transfigure the world into whatever environment they imagine.
Of course, the level of manifestation varies depending on the scale of the elemental, and it goes without saying that only nature can be transfigured—things that exist independently of nature are immune.
In Tsukihime, Arcueid eliminated Roa by using marble phantasm to turn the layers of the atmosphere in the hallway into a vacuum, like a carving knife slicing up a daikon radish.
Though she could not affect Roa himself, it was impossible for him to avoid the finely sliced atmosphere, and he was reduced to nothing but ankles. (The gap above the floor was the result of a deficiency in Arcueid's imagination.)
Also, in the world of Tsukihime spiritual realms are not alternate dimensions, but rather exist within the world itself. Things like legendary lands and countries of eternal spring are the products of the imagination of whatever elemental rules over them. Consequently, it is possible for humans to wander into them by accident.
The castle in the mountains that Arcueid calls home is actually a product of her marble phantasm."


"

Reality Marble

Intrinsic Field.
Originally referred to the alien common sense possessed by the beings called devils, but now also includes the unique boundary fields possessed by many people.
A subset of marble phantasm, it erodes reality and gives form to the user's imagined world.|"

"

Hippogriff

Otherworldly Phantasmal Horse. The third cheat Noble Phantasm used by Rider of "Black," Astolfo. There are cases when a Griffin, a Monstrous Beast, reproduces with a mare, which would normally be its food. What's born as a result from this is the Monstrous Beast known as a Hippogriff, which has the upper body of an eagle and the lower body of a horse.
However, it is an impossible creature which normally should not exist. This is because it should be impossible for a child to be born between a Griffon and a horse, which are predator and prey. The Hippogriff existed only as a hypothetical and philosophical symbol. A Hipppogriff appears in the story of "Orlando Furioso" (The Frenzy of Roland), where Astolfo and his comrades also appear. This story includes the theme of "The Hippogriff makes an appearance here, so no matter how strange it may seem, there is nothing that is truly impossible." In "Orlando Furioso," Astolfo even goes to the moon in order to save Roland.
The Hippogriff that Astolfo rides is a "Phantasmal Beast" in the true sense, since its very existence is uncertain. As a result, when it is released as a Noble Phantasm, the Hippogriff can jump over to a different dimension, though only for an instant.
That dimension is the home of the Phantasmal Species, where only beings that are purely non-physical souls can go to. It is the Reverse Side of the World, which the Hippogriff, when summoned as a Noble Phantasm."

)
I went through the encloypedia entries. Marble phantasm, and reality marble then compared it to Astolfo's NP descreption. This is what i found.

" in the world of Tsukihime spiritual realms are not alternate dimensions, but rather exist within the world itself. Things like legendary lands and countries of eternal spring are the products of the imagination of whatever elemental rules over them. Consequently, it is possible for humans to wander into them by accident.
The castle in the mountains that Arcueid calls home is actually a product of her marble phantasm."

"A reality marble is a subset of marble phantasm, it erodes reality and gives form to the user's imagined world."

"The Hippogriff that Astolfo rides is a "Phantasmal Beast" in the true sense, since its very existence is uncertain. As a result, when it is released as a Noble Phantasm, the Hippogriff can jump over to a different dimension, though only for an instant.
That dimension is the home of the Phantasmal Species, where only beings that are purely non-physical souls can go to. It is the Reverse Side of the World, which the Hippogriff, when summoned as a Noble Phantasm"

There is a clear difference here. Marble phantasms produce realities that can share the same world. realitiy marbles are a subset power of Marble phantasms. HOWEVER! Astolfo's noble phantasm description clearly stats the reverse side of the world is separated entirely. It differs from the above 2 significantly. Therefore we can rule out them being reality marbles, even if accepted this means that nasuverse earth is larger perhaps way larger than normal as there is an uncountable addtional landmasses.

This didn't edit the way i wanted it too...

I am going to bed though so i'll have to respond a lot later tomorrow lol.
 
That's why I said they were similar to a Reality Marble rather then actually being one. Both Worlds are base on how the Reality on the Planet would look base on the different types of laws, Reverse side being based on the Age of Gods Era and the Common Sense based on the rules for Humans, both of them are originated from the planet.

The Human World was created by the planet to support mankind since the modern Human wouldn't survive the Reverse Side due to how their bodies are constucted and how they seperated theselves from Mystery. The Reverse Side was also created to support the Phantasmle Beast that originated from the Age of Gods since they can't survive within the Human world for long pirods of time due to the diteration of Mystery.

No just because their seperate from the the Planet doesn't mean the Planet itself is bigger, the only information we have on their size is that they wrap thingly around the surface.

We do know that the Worlds don't extend toward the Moon since Type Moon is a completly seperate being that Gaia did call for help, Type Moon can't be something from earth since it's the embodyment of the Moon, just like Arcueid true might embodies Earth.
 
I never said "Because their are separate the planet is bigger" Are you twisting the words i said on purpose? You agreed they are separate with the "No, just because their separate from the planet doesn't mean the planet itself is bigger." But you believe they share the same earth.....

We know they are separated going by the statements in grand order and in the encloypedia entries.

We both are getting nowhere with this. According to what matt said there is a planned revision for the verse by a team agreed upon by admins i am assuming. I will agree that me and you disagree on the structure of the verse. I will wait until this team comes forth with their revisions/findings
 
I do admit I might of read your post wrong, that was the message I got, I apologies.

We are both saying the same thing just useing them for different purposes, Textures are Fabrics of Reality seperrate from the planet, but still connected to the surface, each one haveing different properties from each other. This we both agree right?

I am simply trying to say that we don't have any real informaiton of the actual size of these Realities, my comment towards RM is that they are similar though are different.

There is a Cosmology Blog being worked on though not entierly sure if an entire Revision is being worked on since that would be way too much work if all we are trying to do is simply explain the cosmology of the verse.
 
Ah i see i see. We agree that they are separated. however if they are connected to the surface then how are they separated...... They see them as being completely cut off from each other, to me that is

A cosmology blog could radically change the ratings of the verse... but I may have misunderstood something. I am sorry..
 
Things will change but not too much. It will probably just effect Ea and those that connect to it since those are the only thing that actually deals with these things. Most servants don't go beyond Mountain, or what ever Excalibur will end at, and other Planet level characters have their own reasons and feats for being there.

Arcureid embodies the planet, Kiara is comparable to BB who has athority of the Moon cell which might be comparable to the Planet.

There really isn't any real information of the mechanics of Textures, the only thing we have is how they are 'stacked' post #23.

Nasuverse is very difficult verse to explain I do admit that, especially with how little information of the cosmology we actually have. I mean Fate extella gone into details of the different mechanics for Alternante Worlds and that's been known since Fate stay night.
 
BB is solid planet level with range of hax, but attack potency wise. The only thing i got is that her noble phantasm is ranked EX, and stated by encloypedia entry to be anti-planet level. Though im trying to translate the japanese text of that. I also have found a scan that says the "The Mooncell has a power source equivlent to sun."

I'll strongly advocate planet level gilgamesh until i see strong evidence other wise though.
 
Well BB is for another topic since it doesn't ahve anything to do with how the Textures work so We'll let someone else deal with her if people think she needs to be affected.

I mean the ture shown effects of Ea would be good evidence but that's been talked to death and accepted already, in this very thread in fact, so I won't say anymore though I will respect that though I don't agree with you, all we can do is wait for the cosmology blog to be complete.
 
Since this thread was about Tiamat. She should scale to BB. We can talk about gilgamesh and the textures another day. We can always discuss the alternatives for scaling tiamat.
 
No she doesn't scale, there is no actual statments that connects the two so Tiamat can't scale.

She doesn't actually have any real feats and her scaling to Goetia can't be used since he will might change after the cosmology blog. She doesn't have anything going for her, at least not on her own.
 
I don't see what is the relation to Marble Phantasms and why would that be brought up. Reality Marbles are said to be a subset of Marble Phantasms... despite the fact that Marble Phantasms have never shown the effects of Reality Marbles. Marble Phantasms add to the planet, is not like the Castle Brunestud is gonna be in a closed off space cut off from normal space like a normal Reality Marble, it's gonna be there in the middle of the forest where you saw Arcueid summon it. Marble Phantasms as well can only manifest what's naturally possible, which is the whole "getting the 1 white marble among 100 with the other 99 being black, as many times as you want" versus "turn all the black marbles white". They set new laws, bring about impossible effects that wouldn't be created normally.

Anyway, I do agree about the cosmology blog or the revision, but I'll hope to actually get a chance to review the revision or for the people that actually know of fate to be at all related to it. Otherwise, I can only expect things like "firing the concept of venus comparing to shooting Venus" to reappear, but you never know.
 
JBennett said:
No she doesn't scale, there is no actual statments that connects the two so Tiamat can't scale.
She doesn't actually have any real feats and her scaling to Goetia can't be used since he will might change after the cosmology blog. She doesn't have anything going for her, at least not on her own.
Click to expand...
BB fought the "final Ascension's" of Gilgamesh, tamamo no mae, Nero, and nameless. The CCC ending has evidence that the "mystic code" EoG are their final Ascension. Which Gilgamesh use in his fight against Tiamat.
 
That would still requier Gil to be Planet Level which we are currently talking about so we can't use that, and ccc gil is a servant upgraded through the Moon Cell that doesn't scale to Living Gil or Ghost Gil.
 
She didn't gave birth to it, I feel like this was already talked about in the previous Thread and was debunked.
 
She didn't give birth to the planet

Half of her corpse was used to create the earth and the other half was used to create the heavens

Her weight is also unquantifiable due to her being containing imaginary numbers however her volume is infinite so she is a 4d pocket

So we have an infinite volume 4d pocket with an unquantifiable weight being split in half to create the earth and the other half is heaven

Make of that what you will

Would also like to add that gods moving to a higher dimension and not being able to affect a lower one is not really unfounded as they are actively prevented from being able to do so, also if you read goetia's bond 5 text it confirms that demons are also of a higher dimension than man but are unable to do anything without being contracted by humans due to the anchors
 
... no. The planet already existed without anything of it being related to Tiamat. We already know there was a Earth Mother Goddess even older than Tiamat from Extra, and from Goetia that the planet was definitely formed 4.6 billions of years ago or something like that, like ours. Being used to make the Earth and the Heaven is just flowery mythology language, not true fact in Fate. Isn't the whole point of her backstory that she was chucked to the Imaginary Number Space instead of her body being used to create Earth yadda yadda because the Gods were done with her and didn't want her birthing more stuff?

And no, but the Gods becoming explicitly weaker, higher dimensional and unable to affect Earth at the same time makes utterly no sense. It's not like Eldrazi from Magic the Gathering who are above the multiversal structure of the world and what you see of them in the universe is like them dipping a single finger inside, Gods are able to exist while at their full power but when they get reduced in status, power and influence they are... sent to a higher dimension? What?

So no, they aren't higher dimensional. They aren't even in a higher dimension, unless anyone wants to argue Merlin and Fafnir Sieg are higher dimensional as well. Astolfo's Hippogriff NP page isn't the end and be all and we already discredit the incorrect use of dimension on other cases.
 
They are and aren't true. Some stuff didn't happen and other stuff is just the belief of people, which is the whole point of heroes being influenced by those beliefs at times. Gilgamesh's whole shtick is that he's the origin of every hero, so he has the prototype of everything, including things he never had. Not to mention the Babylonia myth talks about Babylonia, just the same as Surtr didn't burn the entire world but the Norse Myth Texture when Ragnarok came.

Tiamat is not as old as the Planet, and the Planet existed before her. That's not arguable.
 
I'm pretty sure the Gods after degrading to Divine Spirits because of the end of the Age of Gods, do in fact go to a different realm which is stated in the Golden Poem Arc to be higher dimensional, unless theirs a mistranslation, though its not located in the Reverse Side of the World on any other texture of the World like the Throne of Heroes.
 
Simply being higher-dimensional will no longer indicate being a higher tier after Ultima's revisions, if that helps with that snippit.
 
I had actually forgotten about that, thanks Dargoo.

So along with that and the fact that the Gods are quite literally weakened when turning to Divine Spirits, even if we decide it's a higher dimension that doesn't bump their scaling up.
 
Actually, during Babylon SIngularity, Ishtar already debunked that of Tiamat birthing the planet, wait a bit and i'll try to find a link
 
Textures are planet-sized, it's no different than a cosmology that has "layers" like To Aru, which explicitely and statedly has only one universe and new timelines can't be created, but the universe has multiple layers which are universe-sized.
 
@Matthew

Nasuverse is confirmed to have multiple universes each with the textures system in it but following different paths unless thats not what you meant in which case ignore me
 
Typemoon does in fact have muntiple universes, the idea of the Second True magic support this and the statment that all three routs of Fate Stay Night are cannon just on different paths.

Almost every single different series within Typemoon is a different route, Prisma, apacrypha, Extra, GO, KnK, and Tsukihime are all different paths from each other.

Mat Yes the textures are planet size but they only cover the planets surface, there is no indication that each Texture extends to the whole universe.
 
If we accept that the textures are planet sized.. then all I have to say is that is one big fracking planet. I still believe them to separated by a defined boundry making it a different space-time from age of man earth.
 
@Matt What? To Aru phases and Nasu textures are similar in nature but that's it. What is your evidence of the Human World layer being the size of a planet because it covers it? Trying to make it seem legit by interchanging it with To Aru phases which are established to vary in size and have different underlaying properties makes no sense. Comparing the two is flawed and ultimately won't matter to the CRT at hand.
 
It covering the whole planet = Being planet-sized.

As I keep saying, Gaia in Nasuverse is not a regular planet. It isn't capped by real life definitions of what Earth is and what energy is required to destroy it.

Both Bennet and Paul also completely misunderstood my analogy.
 
I just realize that this won't go anywhere so can we just drop this untill the revision is done, I can tell that matter what anyone else say Mat and Up won't be satisfied so instead of just waisting everyones time can we just drop the subject?
 
I know this particular thread isn't nearly as long as the first one, but can we wrap this up? This is going nowhere.
 
No. He sees the ad nauseum which is no doubt gonna happen and wants all people to stop posting until the csomology blog is done since neither side is gonna concede.
 
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