Revising Dragon Ball Flight Speed (Dragon Ball + DBZ + DBS Manga)

[Damage3245]

Considering that we've seen characters flying faster or comparably to their attack speed for shorter bursts, I suggest we add information on the Range section of these character profiles. Yes, we put a certain range for their high speed flights, that cannot be maintained for longer than said range, otherwise their energy would be greatly depleted. After said range, they could just maintain a lower flight speed for longer distances, thus, adding the new ratings from Damage, but still addressing that, in a fight, they can easily fly for X distance at the same speed as they fight in. This honestly should satisfy both sides of the argument, and answer the inconsistency provided by this awful, awful show.
How does that sound, everyone?

As a start, it's pretty good, but there's other points that I'll bring up tomorrow that could affect things.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I think you mean two things I consistently disagree with you on.

Based on what? Sure you disagree, but so far you didn't provided an explaination as to why Goku needs more than a day to clear something he considers to be nothing for him, or needing to stop in the middle despite him not mentioning it

Your claims rely on assumptions that are not proved in any way, so using Occam's razor they fall flat, as the premise that requires the least extra assumptions from the story is likely the most correct one. Besides, Goku would definitely not consider a swim that took him days as easy or something casual, and he would mention he needed to sleep in the middle

 

[Vizer04]

• Goku outruns Piccolo's Chi Blast
• Raditz runs away from Goku's Kamehameha long enough to deliver some lines
• Goku flies to Freeza's location faster than he can move his arm to kill Vegeta (albeit casual, should still be FTL Combat Speed being outsped by Goku's Flight Speed)
• Freeza flies far away and blitzes Vegeta
• SSJ Goku outruns Freeza's Kienzans with flight

These are all combat speed feats...

 

[Damage3245]

Based on what? Sure you disagree, but so far you didn't provided an explaination as to why Goku needs more than a day to clear something he considers to be nothing for him, or needing to stop in the middle despite him not mentioning it

Your claims rely on assumptions that are not proved in any way, so using Occam's razor they fall flat, as the premise that requires the least extra assumptions from the story is likely the most correct one. Besides, Goku would definitely not consider a swim that took him days as easy or something casual, and he would mention he needed to sleep in the middle

Lack of evidence.

 

[Vizer04]

Speed: FTL combat speed and ranged flight speed, Hypersonic+/Massively Hypersonic+/etc long-distances flight speed

Agreed, as long as it's made clear they can only go FTL in short bursts and they can't travel at those speeds.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Lack of evidence.

Lack on evidence on your claims you mean. I'm not the one making these claims that have no reasonings simply because I refuse to accept a feat with speed I don't like

 

[GodlyCharmander]

These are all combat speed feats...

 

[Veronica]

Why are you assuming that all the feats are LS? Also, the Namek feat has been rejected in the previous link.

 

[SirAlex09]

Why are you assuming that they are all LS?

.... Do you even watch the show bro?

We have relativistic feats, multipliers and the fact that character A blitzes character B thus he has to be faster than B's relativistic speed which he scales to. If you apply multiplier, you easily get LS

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

My solution for the contradictions​

Considering that we've seen characters flying faster or comparably to their attack speed for shorter bursts, I suggest we add information on the Range section of these character profiles. Yes, we put a certain range for their high speed flights, that cannot be maintained for longer than said range, otherwise their energy would be greatly depleted. After said range, they could just maintain a lower flight speed for longer distances, thus, adding the new ratings from Damage, but still addressing that, in a fight, they can easily fly for X distance at the same speed as they fight in. This honestly should satisfy both sides of the argument, and answer the inconsistency provided by this awful, awful show.

"How should we do that?"​

Simple, we take these instances where flight was comparable to combat, calc the distance they've flown, and put this as their range for high speed/FTL flight speed. Otherwise, we can just scale stronger characters to lower tier's ranges as they obviously have a larger energy reserve.

My rating proposal

Goku

Speed: FTL combat speed and ranged flight speed, Hypersonic+/Massively Hypersonic+/etc long-distances flight speed.

Making note of how far they can fly without draining their energy reserves seems like a fine solution to me.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Why are you assuming that all the feats are LS? Also, the Namek feat has been rejected in the previous link.

Some aren't. Raditz ran away from a Rel+ blast, since it's likely faster than the random Ki Blast Piccolo used, which was calculated at 0.54c.

The other feats are FTL because they're multiple times faster than Rel+ blast.

 

[Veronica]

.... Do you even watch the show bro?

Yes, crossing a portion of Namek a earth sized planet is nowhere near LS. As LS would circle the earth 7.5 times in a single second.

 

[SirAlex09]

The other feats are FTL because they're multiple times faster than Rel+ blast.

His question goes into the direction why you assume it's faster than the relativistic blast, which is actually trolling territory

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Namek wasn't confirmed to be Earth sized though

 

[Chariot190]

Yes, crossing a portion of Namek a earth sized planet is nowhere near LS. As LS would circle the earth 7.5 times in a single second. Also

And yet they have attacks that can circle the earth multiple times in seconds.
And even below that, they have feats magnitudes above your the low mach travel feats. See the issue? They have a actual hilarious amount of feats that eclipse these travel feats, whether it's LS, FTL, Rel, doesn't matter, there's numerous feats below all that which still conflict with what's being argued by you.

I'm fine with Charmander's proposition tho.

 

[Vizer04]

Namek wasn't confirmed to be Earth sized though

Considering it has similar gravity and atmospheric conditions to Earth (Bulma and Krillin can stay in Namek without special suits) and Dodoria's statement, it's pretty easy to deduce Namek's size to be similar to Earth's.

 

[Vizer04]

One, very outlierish relativistic feat vs Several Hypersonic anti-feats...

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

One, very outlierish relativistic feat vs Several Hypersonic anti-feats...

You mean, several relativistic feats compared to several other Hypersonic feats, and even higher feats than Hypersonic in DB alone...

(Piccolo destroying the moon, Vegeta being capable of destroying Earth, Frieza destroys Planet Vegeta and Namek, Goku blitzes Jeice and Burter's scouters, Burter being able to instantly catch a Dragon Ball Vegeta threw at full speed and that's just to name a few)

 

[Vizer04]

several relativistic feats

Excuse me, what are you talking about?

 

[Damage3245]

One, very outlierish relativistic feat vs Several Hypersonic anti-feats...

No point arguing that one for now, we can get to it later.

 

[Chariot190]

One, very outlierish relativistic feat vs Several Hypersonic anti-feats...

Two rel feats, some sub-rel stuff, some MHS stuff, HHS stuff, and everything in between vs. several mach antifeats.

I told Damage this, and clearly I need to tell you too. Do you actually not realize that it's not just Piccolo's feat but literally hundreds of other feats that eclipse the travel feats?

 

[Damage3245]

Two rel feats, some sub-rel stuff, some MHS stuff, HHS stuff, and everything in between vs. several mach antifeats.

I told Damage this, and clearly I need to tell you too. Do you actually not realize that it's not just Piccolo's feat but literally hundreds of other feats that eclipse the travel feats?

I get what you mean, but the mach calcs aren't the extent of the antifeats.

Will go into it more tomorrow, hopefully.

 

[CloverDragon03]

These are all combat speed feats...

Flying a good distance and outright running are suddenly combat speed feats now?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

This CRT is wild

 

[Veronica]

I have rather ftl to mftl travel. The idea that a modern jet can out race them is outrageous

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Okay, the thread is getting really long, can someone summarize the current topic?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Okay, the thread is getting really long, can someone summarize the current topic?

This post summarizes the points of both sides fairly well. The current topic is separating their long distance travel speed from their combat and reaction speed due to the characters demonstrating large discrepancies between these two types of speed.

Should be noted Damage presumably has more points to bring us, so the discussion isn’t quite over.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

MY CONCLUSION SO FAR/PROPOSAL​

Alright, I've seen everything both sides have to offer as of now, and came to a, in my opinion, very reasonable proposal that will address both sides accordingly.

OP favorable arguments​

First, we need to consider all the times where the characters needed to get from point A to point B as fast as possible, and yet, they showcase Supersonic+ to Hypersonic+ flight speed. Damage already went through these points, but some of them are,

• Goku trying to get to the saiyans
• Z-Fighters looking for Gero's lab
• Goku trying to look for a shapeship to get out of Namek

And of course, all the calcs Damage provided earlier.

These show instances where it would obviously be inconvenient to the narrative if character X were to get to point B before any repercussions happened. So, yes, these have happened.

Don't worry, I know the opposing side's answers for all these examples, I will address them shortly.

Opposing Side's arguments​

Although these instances do exists, we also have to address some of the valid points the opposing side has provided, where the characters simply run, or flight away from the blasts,

• Goku outruns Piccolo's Chi Blast
• Raditz runs away from Goku's Kamehameha long enough to deliver some lines
• Goku flies to Freeza's location faster than he can move his arm to kill Vegeta (albeit casual, should still be FTL Combat Speed being outsped by Goku's Flight Speed)
• Freeza flies far away and blitzes Vegeta
• SSJ Goku outruns Freeza's Kienzans with flight

There are other examples where a character with FTL reaction gets blizted by short burst flights in a straight line like Piccolo vs Freeza, but you all get the point.

These are instances that, if going by our current scaling, showcase flight being FTL, and comparable to attack/combat speed. It may seem like an obvious contradiction for an outsider, "how come you take 8 hours to fly 2000km, but outruns faster-than-light attacks occasionally?"

Well, the opposing side have provided evidence that flying for long distances at high speeds consumes an extensive amount of energy from the user, Goku states so when crossing the Snake Way, and implies this when talking to Gohan. So yeah, maintaining FTL flights for a long distance would most likely consume one's energy to exhaustion, right? So they won't do it, because what good does it do if you get there but you're drained? Goku literally implies Gohan would use all his strength for flying to another city by going full speed.

This "answers" most instances where speed is Hypersonic, because if they tried to cross the distance at FTL, they'd be drained. Great, "debunked", right?

No! Because these other instances where they did showcase faster flight speed compared to combat speed still exist! If the energy consumption is so high, how can Goku fly away from MFTL Ki Blasts for several panels and not just be drained? Well, I have a solution.

My solution for the contradictions​

Considering that we've seen characters flying faster or comparably to their attack speed for shorter bursts, I suggest we add information on the Range section of these character profiles. Yes, we put a certain range for their high speed flights, that cannot be maintained for longer than said range, otherwise their energy would be greatly depleted. After said range, they could just maintain a lower flight speed for longer distances, thus, adding the new ratings from Damage, but still addressing that, in a fight, they can easily fly for X distance at the same speed as they fight in. This honestly should satisfy both sides of the argument, and answer the inconsistency provided by this awful, awful show.

"How should we do that?"​

Simple, we take these instances where flight was comparable to combat, calc the distance they've flown, and put this as their range for high speed/FTL flight speed. Otherwise, we can just scale stronger characters to lower tier's ranges as they obviously have a larger energy reserve.

My rating proposal

Goku

Speed: FTL combat speed and ranged flight speed, Hypersonic+/Massively Hypersonic+/etc long-distances flight speed.


How does that sound, everyone?

Okay, the thread is getting really long, can someone summarize the current topic?

I guess this

 

[Stefano4444]

(Piccolo destroying the moon, Vegeta being capable of destroying Earth, Frieza destroys Planet Vegeta and Namek, Goku blitzes Jeice and Burter's scouters, Burter being able to instantly catch a Dragon Ball Vegeta threw at full speed and that's just to name a few)

There its also Roshi who destroyed the Moon too and Kid Goku who technically outspeeded Tien's Solar Flare (which its potentially a FTL feat) along with catching Earth's Dragon Ball before it could fly away.

 

[KLOL506]

These are all combat speed feats...

FOR THE LAST TIME...

Combat Speeds involve your punches and kicks. Travel speed is moving your entire body over a duration of a period without taking short breaks, and we're not talking 1-2 seconds of movement, we're talking at least ten seconds or higher. Dogfighting in mid-air is not combat speed, it's blatant travel speed.

 

[Damage3245]

There its also Roshi who destroyed the Moon too and Kid Goku who technically outspeeded Tien's Solar Flare (which its potentially a FTL feat) along with catching Earth's Dragon Ball before it could fly away.

The "outspeeding the Solar Flare" feat was debunked years ago. Kid Goku does not have to be FTL to do that, or anywhere close.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Hmmmm... reading through the thread I have to say I believe I agree with FTL and such, as someone who dislikes DB as a verse

 

[Damage3245]

Hmmmm... reading through the thread I have to say I believe I agree with FTL and such, as someone who dislikes DB as a verse

Whether you like or dislike a verse shouldn't have much to do with it.

And does this mean you agree with FTL speed overall, or just FTL combat speed?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Whether you like or dislike a verse shouldn't have much to do with it.

And does this mean you agree with FTL speed overall, or just FTL combat speed?

It eliminates any claims of bias towards me

FTL speed overall

 

[Damage3245]

It eliminates any claims of bias towards me

FTL speed overall

What is your response of the dozen or so antifeats showing that they consistently do not have FTL speed overall? At the very least, not FTL speeds for more than a few hundred meters at best?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

They do have FTL speed at long dostances they just drain energy too quickly. It's not like they are incapable of going that fast. I still believe pokemon man's proposal is sublime.

 

[Damage3245]

They do have FTL speed at long dostances they just drain energy too quickly. It's not like they are incapable of going that fast. I still believe pokemon man's proposal is sublime.

Isn't that contradictory? They can't have FTL speed over long distances and then also run out of energy before they can get anywhere. That would by definition mean they cannot sustain FTL speed over long distances.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Isn't that contradictory? They can't have FTL speed over long distances and then also run out of energy before they can get anywhere. That would by definition mean they cannot sustain FTL speed over long distances.

This is false. I can prove this well with an example from the show.
Goku while flying back from snake way went as fast as he possibly could travelling a 6 months run in only ~2 days using flight, pre training he tried this and became too tired so he opted to going slower. The thing is, after flying for 2 days straight, he reached korin tower and was exhausted and needed a senzu, proving that they can sustain flight at that combat level speed but is way too impractical so they choose a slower but sustainable flight speed but can use the full travel speed in combat which makes examples such as flying away from kid buu's ki blast and freeza's death saucer consistent.

How about that?

 

[Damage3245]

Anyway; I'll start drafting together the changes that would need to be made based on Charmander's suggestion. I won't suggest revising the speeds completely for now, but will seek to just split flight speed and combat speed (to make the profiles a little simpler, let's just define the "close ranged slight speed" as part of DBZ combat speed, so profiles would look like this:

Gotenks

Speed: Massively FTL+ combat speed (Much faster than both Son Goten and Trunks), Massively Hypersonic+ flight speed (Circled the Earth several times quickly) | Massively FTL+ combat speed (Faster than Innocent Buu but slower than Super Buu), at least Massively Hypersonic+ flight speed (Faster than before) | Massively FTL+ combat speed (Can keep up with Super Buu), at least Massively Hypersonic+ flight speed (Faster than before)

Goku while flying back from snake way went as fast as he possibly could travelling a 6 months run in only ~2 days using flight, pre training he tried this and became too tired so he opted to going slower. The thing is, after flying for 2 days straight, he reached korin tower and was exhausted and needed a senzu, proving that they can sustain flight at that combat level speed but is way too impractical so they choose a slower but sustainable flight speed but can use the full travel speed in combat which makes examples such as flying away from kid buu's ki blast and freeza's death saucer consistent.

That seems like proof that Goku's maximum flight speed is far slower than what it is rated as currently.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Anyway; I'll start drafting together the changes that would need to be made based on Charmander's suggestion. I won't suggest revising the speeds completely for now, but will seek to just split flight speed and combat speed (to make the profiles a little simpler, let's just define the "close ranged slight speed" as part of DBZ combat speed, so profiles would look like this:

Gotenks

Speed: Massively FTL+ combat speed (Much faster than both Son Goten and Trunks), Massively Hypersonic+ flight speed (Circled the Earth several times quickly) | Massively FTL+ combat speed (Faster than Innocent Buu but slower than Super Buu), at least Massively Hypersonic+ flight speed (Faster than before) | Massively FTL+ combat speed (Can keep up with Super Buu), at least Massively Hypersonic+ flight speed (Faster than before)




That seems like proof that Goku's maximum flight speed is far slower than what it is rated as currently.

I think you should indicate that the rating is sustainable flight speed not maximum.

No.