Revising Dragon Ball Flight Speed (Dragon Ball + DBZ + DBS Manga)

[Damage3245]

I've had this in the back of my head for a while so I just want to get the thread out there and see what happens.

Dragon Ball's Flight Speed

Okay, so if you've seen the title you know what this is about so I'll just dive right in. Right now many Dragon Ball profiles don't make a distinction between the types of speed that the characters have. They're very simplified and from those simplified ratings you could probably concldue that most of the characters fly at FTL speeds just from a simple listing of "FTL" in their speed sections.

But I think this is misleading, and overlooks multiple consistent antifeats in the manga.

Frieza Saga

1) The distance between the Bulma's, Gohan's and Krillin's hideout on Namek and the house of the Great Elder is about 30 days at walking speed. Krillin decides to fly there instead, as fast as Dende can manage.

2) After travelling partway there, it would still take Krillin and Dende about five hours to cover the remaining distance. Krillin thinks he could go fast if he grabbed Dende and used a lot more Chi to fly.

3) After he gets his power increased by the Great Elder, Krillin takes off at high-speed and thinks to himself that he could fly to Gohan and bring him back there in a few hours.

4) While suppressing their Chi, Krillin and Gohan take four days to fly part of the distance between their camp and the Great Elder's house. When they decide to stop suppressing themselves, it takes them rougly an hour to cover the remaining distance.

5) Later on, Gohan acknowledges that it would take Krillin a couple of hours to fly from Frieza's spaceship to the Great Elder and back.

6) By the way, this doesn't just apply to weaklings like Gohan and Krillin. Frieza takes off flying in the middle of chapter 46 of the Frieza arc. Krillin and Gohan can sense him approaching near the start of chapter 47. Frieza doesn't arrive until the end of chapter 49, after they gathered the Dragon Balls, summoned the dragon and wished back Piccolo. Even if we highballed it and Frieza was somehow on the opposite end of the planet to them, the group still had several minutes of actions and multiple conversations before Frieza (who was in a hurry due to his desperation to get the Dragon Balls) flew all that distance.

Those are all major statements and flight anti-feats on Namek, but it's not just contained to Namek alone in case people may think this is a one-off weirdness for a particular section of the manga.

Other Sagas

1) King Kai claims in the Saiyan Saga that Post-Training Goku would take 2 days to cover the million kilometers of Snake Way. It took him pretty close to that amount since we have a timer for it. The Saiyans didn't arrive until the next day and by then Goku was already travelling. Vegeta and Nappa even waited several hours for Goku to arrive, and it still took Goku longer than that.

2) When Goku demonstrates his new Instant Transmission at the beginning of the Cell Saga, he disappears and reappears there shortly after. Vegeta initially dismisses this as a trick with super-speed but they clarify that Goku must have gone 10,000 km away and returned since he went to Roshi's house. Judging by Vegeta's reaction, such a feat is beyond him which proves that Goku used teleportation and didn't simply fly over there.

3) Krillin uses his full power to fly and intercept Bulma's plane which is flying towards him to deliver the remote to the androids in the Cell Saga. It would take 20 minutes for her plane to reach them, but even flying at full power Krillin takes several minutes to reach her plane.

4) In the Buu Saga, Gohan with an aura active (signifying that he isn't suppressed or totally casual) takes 20 minutes to fly to another location from his home.

5) Later on in Dragon Ball Super, at the beginning of the Galactic Prisoner Saga, base Vegeta claims he can fly to a city on Earth in 5 seconds. Impressive for sure, but still slower than light itself.

Conclusion

So that we don't gloss over this entirely in our profiles, I propose we add Flight Speed ratings to Dragon Ball characters, and we make it clear that the FTL ratings they do have presently are Combat Speed.

I don't have exact figures for you yet, just want to establish firstly that these ten or so antifeats / statements are valid for use to use. (This should go without saying, but obviously characters like Beerus and Whis and certain others won't be affected by this)

EDIT: Also, this thread is primarily for revising Dragon Ball, the Dragon Ball Z manga and the Dragon Ball Super manga. Not the anime / anime profiles. Don't bring up anime-exclusive feats.

EDIT 2:

Here is my breakdown of the Saiyan Arc.

Will update this with Namek Arc as well soon.

EDIT3:

Here is the sandbox with the proposed ratings and justification changes.

 

[God900]

Very simple and straight forward, I agree

 

[SamanPatou]

The idea is good, I agree with that, now let's see how do we figure out the actual ratings.

 

[KLOL506]

No. We literally had a CRT discussing how Ki enhances all aspects of speed to the same level here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/toei-dragon-ball-speed-adjustment.123205/

It's even on the verse page as a result.

As for DBS, we have peeps downscaling heavily from Whis's universe-traveersing feat as a whole, and the Super Dense Energy Ball which falls lower than Whis's flight speed.

 

[KLOL506]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Nullflowerblush @AKM sama @Elizhaa @GodlyCharmander @Zamasu_Chan @Ottavio_Merluzzo @UchihaSlayer96 Your opinions here would be appreciated.

 

[Damage3245]

Thanks for pinging them.

But while it is true that enhancing Ki also enhances all other stats, that doesn't conflict with much of what is in the OP. After Krillin gets a power boost, his flight speed increases. After Krill and Gohan stop suppressing their Ki, their flight speed increases.

So this thread doesn't ignore that aspect, but instead addresses that just because a character punches at FTL speeds or shoot a beam at FTL speeds, doesn't make their flight speed automatically that fast. Especially considered the number of feats and statements that suggest otherwise.

 

[KLOL506]

Thanks for pinging them.

But while it is true that enhancing Ki also enhances all other stats, that doesn't conflict with much of what is in the OP. After Krillin gets a power boost, his flight speed increases. After Krill and Gohan stop suppressing their Ki, their flight speed increases.

So this thread doesn't ignore that aspect, but instead addresses that just because a character punches at FTL speeds or shoot a beam at FTL speeds, doesn't make their flight speed automatically that fast. Especially considered the number of feats and statements that suggest otherwise.

Wrong, because DB characters can consistently outrun, outpace and outmaneuver blasts from each other and even control them however they please, as the Tournament of Power Saga has blatantly showcased.

 

[Hasty12345]

would this affect the current combat speed scaling for DBS?

 

[Damage3245]

Wrong, because DB characters can consistently outrun, outpace and outmaneuver blasts from each other and even control them however they please.

That would fall under combat speed.

The whole point of this is separating out their feats of fighting each other, and their myriad other fights of just flight speed.

would this affect the current combat speed scaling for DBS?

It wouldn't.

 

[KLOL506]

That would fall under combat speed.

No, because it's not just performing backflips and dodging maneuvers, it involves brute force travelling and flight and constant dogfighting around the blasts or going against the blasts head on.

Also notice how I said Outrun, which means you need to have movement speed faster than the blast in order to overtake it.

 

[Damage3245]

No, because it's not just performing backflips, it involves brute force travelling and flight and constant dogfighting around the blasts.

Only in short bursts.

The whole point of this is separating out their feats of fighting each other, and their myriad other fights of just flight speed.

If we're going to talk about consistency for this, then either we're going to have to face the ugly truth that not all Ki blasts are as fast as accept them to be currently, or we separate their flight speed over long distances from their short distance combat speed.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

That would fall under combat speed.

No it wouldn't. Outpacing an attack while flying away from it is not combat speed. This is textbook travel speed

It's not just evading a punch or striking back. If a character runs away from a blast, this is not combat speed

 

[KLOL506]

Only in short bursts.

The whole point of this is separating out their feats of fighting each other, and their myriad other fights of just flight speed.

If we're going to talk about consistency for this, then either we're going to have to face the ugly truth that not all Ki blasts are as fast as accept them to be currently, or we separate their flight speed over long distances from their short distance combat speed.

One word: Whis.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Your example regarding Dende and Krillin seems to forget that they needed to lay low to not be detected by Frieza and Vegeta

 

[Damage3245]

One word: Whis.

Whis is not the subject of this CRT. I even said in the OP that this doesn't apply to him.

 

[Damage3245]

Your example regarding Dende and Krillin seems to forget that they needed to lay low to not be detected by Frieza and Vegeta

No, it doesn't. Do I need to explain in detail or can you just reread the OP please?

 

[KLOL506]

Whis is not the subject of this CRT. I even said in the OP that this doesn't apply to him.

Here's the thing tho, Beerus and co. downscale from him.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Whis is not the subject of this CRT. I even said in the OP that this doesn't apply to him.

And how is Whis any different than anyone else who outpaces attacks by flying away?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

No, it doesn't. Do I need to explain in detail or can you just reread the OP please?

Yes you need, because laying low to avoid being detected is literally 2hy they couldn't go fast in the Namek Saga

 

[Damage3245]

Here's the thing tho, Beerus and co. downscale from him.

Beerus and company aren't the subject of this CRT either.

And how is Whis any different than anyone else who outpaces attacks by flying away?

Whis has a flight speed calc that puts him in the MFTL+ range, and no antifeats.

Gohan, Krillin, Frieza, etc. in the Namek Saga have multiple anti-feats and no flight speed calc that puts them at FTL.

 

[KLOL506]

Beerus and company aren't the subject of this CRT either.

Except that company includes DBS Base Goku, Vegeta, Final Form Frieza and anyone else who is 3-A for the matter.

This is anime-specific BTW, manga I'll leave to the DBS manga experts.

 

[Damage3245]

Yes you need, because laying low to avoid being detected is literally 2hy they couldn't go fast in the Namek Saga

I literally said this:

Krillin thinks he could go faster if he grabbed Dende and used a lot more Chi to fly.

So yes, Krillin is not restricted to the 5 hours it would take to fly to the Great Elder's house normally, but he isn't FTL either way because we see him flying Dende there and it still takes time, and after he gets a power-up it would still take him an hour to fly back to Gohan without suppressing himself.

 

[Damage3245]

Except that company includes DBS Base Goku, Vegeta, Final Form Frieza and anyone else who is 3-A for the matter.

Then let's ignore them for now. They're not the main focus of this CRT.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Whis has a flight speed calc that puts him in the MFTL+ range, and no antifeats.

Gohan, Krillin, Frieza, etc. in the Namek Saga have multiple anti-feats and no flight speed calc that puts them at FTL.

You still explained nothing. You need to explain why these don't apply. And as I said, they had to lay low in the Frieza Saga because of Vegeta detecting them

 

[Damage3245]

You still explained nothing. You need to explain why these don't apply. And as I said, they had to lay low in the Frieza Saga because of Vegeta detecting them

Sure buddy, whatever. Since you're not going to read the OP, I'm not going to respond to you.

 

[KLOL506]

Then let's ignore them for now. They're not the main focus of this CRT.

BTW, I was talking about the anime, not the manga, so this CRT's headline is misleading since it uses the DBS manga and not the anime, and thus it should be changed.

 

[Damage3245]

BTW, I was talking about the anime, not the manga, so this CRT's headline is misleading since it uses the DBS manga and not the anime.

Okay, I'll clarify that I'm not revising the anime.

 

[AKM sama]

While I agree travel speed feats are demonstrated as less impressive compared to combat speeds in DB, a lot of these are not necessarily anti-feats.

1) The distance between the Bulma's, Gohan's and Krillin's hideout on Namek and the house of the Great Elder is about 30 days at walking speed. Krillin decides to fly there instead, as fast as Dende can manage.

2) After travelling partway there, it would still take Krillin and Dende about five hours to cover the remaining distance. Krillin thinks he could go fast if he grabbed Dende and used a lot more Chi to fly.

3) After he gets his power increased by the Great Elder, Krillin takes off at high-speed and thinks to himself that he could fly to Gohan and bring him back there in a few hours.

5) Later on, Gohan acknowledges that it would take Krillin a couple of hours to fly from Frieza's spaceship to the Great Elder and back.

Throughout the Namek saga, these characters had to knowingly suppress their ki in order to steer clear of others' senses and scouters. They didn't have the liberty of going all out while flying or they'd risk getting on someone's scouter or sensing. These really shouldn't be considered anti-feats because they had to purposely travel slowly.

4) While suppressing their Chi, Krillin and Gohan take four days to fly part of the distance between their camp and the Great Elder's house. When they decide to stop suppressing themselves, it takes them rougly an hour to cover the remaining distance.

You can say they took a chance there by expending more energy. Krillin thought Vegeta wouldn't be able to sense them at that distance but iirc even he didn't know where exactly Vegeta was. And they still risked getting picked up on someone's scouter. It was a calculated risk and I wouldn't assume they started flying at full speed when they are surrounded by enemies all over the planet. They flew faster for sure, but probably still suppressed.

6) By the way, this doesn't just apply to weaklings like Gohan and Krillin. Frieza takes off flying in the middle of chapter 46 of the Frieza arc. Krillin and Gohan can sense him approaching near the start of chapter 47. Frieza doesn't arrive until the end of chapter 49, after they gathered the Dragon Balls, summoned the dragon and wished back Piccolo. Even if we highballed it and Frieza was somehow on the opposite end of the planet to them, the group still had several minutes of actions and multiple conversations before Frieza (who was in a hurry due to his desperation to get the Dragon Balls) flew all that distance.

Sure this is a bit harder to rule out but considering Freeza only showed his full strength while fighting Vegeta in this form, he was probably not at full speed. The other factor here is cinematic timing. People talk and move a lot faster where 1 minute feels like a full episode but it's slowed down for cinematic timing. This has been consistent across the anime form, but not possible to show in manga form.

1) King Kai claims in the Saiyan Saga that Post-Training Goku would take 2 days to cover the million kilometers of Snake Way. It took him pretty close to that amount since we have a timer for it. The Saiyans didn't arrive until the next day and by then Goku was already travelling. Vegeta and Nappa even waited several hours for Goku to arrive, and it still took Goku longer than that.

Took him more than a day for sure but one could argue he was also trying to conserve some energy in case the team was out of senzu beans.

2) When Goku demonstrates his new Instant Transmission at the beginning of the Cell Saga, he disappears and reappears there shortly after. Vegeta initially dismisses this as a trick with super-speed but they clarify that Goku must have gone 10,000 km away and returned since he went to Roshi's house. Judging by Vegeta's reaction, such a feat is beyond him which proves that Goku used teleportation and didn't simply fly over there.

This isn't an anti-feat. Vegeta simply thought that Goku was doing a super speed trick where people disappear momentarily in CQC, which is common in DB fights. Not that Goku went to Roshi's at super speed and came back. The fact that he actually went to Roshi's came after Vegeta's comment.

4) In the Buu Saga, Gohan with an aura active (signifying that he isn't suppressed or totally casual) takes 20 minutes to fly to another location from his home.

This is like comparing me going to my friend's house deciding to walk instead of run. If I don't want to expend much energy, I'd walk and reach there in 10 minutes. If I want to expend my full energy, I could make there in 1 minute.

5) Later on in Dragon Ball Super, at the beginning of the Galactic Prisoner Saga, base Vegeta claims he can fly to a city on Earth in 5 seconds. Impressive for sure, but still slower than light itself.

Didn't mention he'd do it at full speed. According to him, the matter is not a serious one and he isn't sensing anything disturbing either. He was more like, "you get going, I'll be there in 5".

Sure the travel feats are a lot less impressive but most of these aren't anti-feats. A very few debatably are.

 

[Damage3245]

Throughout the Namek saga, these characters had to knowingly suppress their ki in order to steer clear of others' senses and scouters. They didn't have the liberty of going all out while flying or they'd risk getting on someone's scouter or sensing. These really shouldn't be considered anti-feats because they had to purposely travel slowly.

Krillin was not suppressing himself after he got a power boost. He has his aura active.

Krillin was suppressing himself for Dende, but Dende himself did not appear to be holding back.

And Gohan didn't say it would take a couple hours for Krillin to get to the Great Elder and back only if he was holding back.

I know when the characters were travelling purposefully slowly and it was when it was taking Gohan and Krillin days to get to the Great Elder's house. Not when it was taking them hours.

You can say they took a chance there by expending more energy. Krillin thought Vegeta wouldn't be able to sense them at that distance but iirc even he didn't know where exactly Vegeta was. And they still risked getting picked up on someone's scouter. It was a calculated risk and I wouldn't assume they started flying at full speed when they are surrounded by enemies all over the planet. They flew faster for sure, but probably still suppressed.

What makes you say they were suppressed at that point? They had an aura. They took a chance to use more power, but it doesn't say they took a chance to only became slightly faster.

Sure this is a bit harder to rule out but considering Freeza only showed his full strength while fighting Vegeta in this form, he was probably not at full speed. The other factor here is cinematic timing. People talk and move a lot faster where 1 minute feels like a full episode but it's slowed down for cinematic timing. This has been consistent across the anime form, but not possible to show in manga form.

Sure. Maybe it took Frieza a minute. Maybe it took him a whole second (it didn't). The point is that however fast he did it, it was not FTL.

This isn't an anti-feat. Vegeta simply thought that Goku was doing a super speed trick where people disappear momentarily in CQC, which is common in DB fights. Not that Goku went to Roshi's at super speed and came back. The fact that he actually went to Roshi's came after Vegeta's comment.

Right, but Vegeta's reaction to the confirmation that Goku didn't use speed seems to suggest that Vegeta and Goku would be incapable of doing such a feat. Goku travelling 10,000 km and back in an instant is regarded as proof that he's using teleportation, not speed.

This is like comparing me going to my friend's house deciding to walk instead of run. If I don't want to expend much energy, I'd walk and reach there in 10 minutes. If I want to expend my full energy, I could make there in 1 minute.

Gohan has an aura active. That to me, suggests "running", not "walking" from him.

Didn't mention he'd do it at full speed. According to him, the matter is not a serious one and he isn't sensing anything disturbing either. He was more like, "you get going, I'll be there in 5".

I agree that this one is not a strict anti-feat. Just a point for Vegeta getting there at less than what his combat speed would suggest.

Sure the travel feats are a lot less impressive but most of these aren't anti-feats. A very few debatably are.

Fair. Maybe "anti-feat" is the wrong term, but there is a consistent suggestion among these statements that their flight speed is less impressive as you say. I believe it should be noted in the profiles.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I really do hate to be the guy that does a "disagree FRA" but KLOL pretty much summed up why I disagree with this, so... yeah, disagree FRA

 

[Damage3245]

I really do hate to be the guy that does a "disagree FRA" but KLOL pretty much summed up why I disagree with this, so... yeah, disagree FRA

Fair, but KLOL hasn't really addressed any of the points in the OP other than saying "We don't do that." and bringing up Whis who this thread is not about.

I'm aware that we don't use these currently, where why this thread exists to change that.

 

[CloverDragon03]

KLOL has also mentioned how Ki is used to amplify all stats. Some examples you've mentioned (like Gohan in the Buu Saga) do showcase him being fully serious but others (like Krillin) even explicitly mention how using Ki would've increased their speed.

 

[Damage3245]

KLOL has also mentioned how Ki is used to amplify all stats. Some examples you've mentioned (like Gohan in the Buu Saga) do showcase him being fully serious but others (like Krillin) even explicitly mention how using Ki would've increased their speed.

The opening post acknowledges how the character's speed increases with Ki, including flight speed. That is a part of my argument in fact, how Krillin's flight speed explicitly increased with his power boost from the Great Elder and it still takes him more than an hour to travel across Namek while unsuppressed.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Sure buddy, whatever. Since you're not going to read the OP, I'm not going to respond to you.

What's wrong? Can't explain such a simple stuff and respond to arguments? Is this what you call debating? Honestly, after the last thread, I'm not even surprised

And FYI, I read your OP and nothing changed, so yeah, you should explain your points, especially since you keep ignoring that they had to lower their ki to avoid being detected on Namek because they had to evade Vegeta and Frieza

 

[KLOL506]

The opening post acknowledges how the character's speed increases with Ki, including flight speed. That is a part of my argument in fact, how Krillin's flight speed explicitly increased with his power boost from the Great Elder and it still takes him more than an hour to travel across Namek while unsuppressed.

AKM already acknowledged this by explicitly stating that even with that power boost Krillin was taking a calculated risk of making it to his destination because if he screwed up, scouters would pick him up.

 

[Damage3245]

What's wrong? Can't explain such a simple stuff and respond to arguments? Is this what you call debating? Honestly, after the last thread, I'm not even surprised

And FYI, I read your OP and nothing changed, so yeah, you should explain your points, especially since you keep ignoring that they had to lower their ki to avoid being detected on Namek because they had to evade Vegeta and Frieza

Sorry, I was stressed out earlier this morning, and your posts gave me the impression that you hadn't seriously read my OP and I got frustrated.

As I explained multiple times above, I haven't ignored that there were times that they lowered their Ki to avoid being detected.

I've brought up sequences where their Ki wasn't suppressed as counters to this. Do you actually not see the times when I pointed this out in the OP? Have I worded it wrongly in there?

 

[Damage3245]

AKM already acknowledged this by explicitly stating that even with that power boost Krillin was taking a calculated risk of making it to his destination because if he screwed up, scouters would pick him up.

AKM was talking about a different scene to that one.

 

[KLOL506]

Fair, but KLOL hasn't really addressed any of the points in the OP other than saying "We don't do that." and bringing up Whis who this thread is not about.

Clearly you didn't check the Daizenshuu links which basically serve as why we don't do that.

AKM was talking about a different scene to that one.

No, he tackled points 1, 2, 3 and 5 (Which includes your "hours needed to fly from Great Elder and back statement") with one single comment:

Throughout the Namek saga, these characters had to knowingly suppress their ki in order to steer clear of others' senses and scouters. They didn't have the liberty of going all out while flying or they'd risk getting on someone's scouter or sensing. These really shouldn't be considered anti-feats because they had to purposely travel slowly.

 

[Damage3245]

Clearly you didn't check the Daizenshuu links which basically serve as why we don't do that.

No, he tackled points 1, 2, 3 and 5 with one single comment:

Okay, what about the times they weren't suppressed?

Clearly you didn't check the Daizenshuu links which basically serve as why we don't do that.

I think the manga takes higher priority than the Daizenshuu. But also, I don't think that the Daizenshuu explicitly disagrees with me anyway.

 

[AppleLord]

Planets are just bigger than ours that requieres FTL characters a longer time frame.