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Revising Dragon Ball Flight Speed (Dragon Ball + DBZ + DBS Manga)

Damage3245 said:
@GodlyCharmander; thank you very much for the rearching you've put into the original Dragon Ball.

EDIT: Nam's speed is accepted on the wiki as Supersonic though, not Supersonic+.
Click to expand...
Since Goku's profile states he is Supersonic+ by scaling to Nam, while linking to an off-site calc which has a Supersonic+ end, you can see my confusion.

Will fix this on my post, thank you for the correction
 
Those criteria are for everything claimed as being light tbh. Not just beams or lasers. Beams and lasers are the more common things. It shouldn't matter if a character is making a beam or a widespread omnidirectional wave, as long as it is being claimed to be light, it needs to fulfill the criteria.

Flash bangs and sun's rays are obvious examples of sources that emit light, they don't need to establish themselves as being made of light like fictional attacks do.
 
AKM sama said:
Those criteria are for everything claimed as being light tbh. Not just beams or lasers. Beams and lasers are the more common things. It shouldn't matter if a character is making a beam or a widespread omnidirectional wave, as long as it is being claimed to be light, it needs to fulfill the criteria.

Flash bangs and sun's rays are obvious examples of sources that emit light, they don't need to establish themselves as being made of light like fictional attacks do.
Click to expand...
Damn, AKM, you don't need to beat me this hard at my own game LOL
 
Btw, is there a final proposal in this thread so far, or is it still going to take some time?
 
AKM sama said:
Btw, is there a final proposal in this thread so far, or is it still going to take some time?
Click to expand...
Well, the current proposal / compromise is Charmander's suggestion which roughly speaking is to separate the statistics into "X combat speed (+short-range speed), Y travel speed". But no specific ratings yet.

So this will likely take some more time. I won't be present on VSBW over this weekend, so hopefully this thread will be wrapped up next week.
 
Damage3245 said:
Isn't that contradictory? They can't have FTL speed over long distances and then also run out of energy before they can get anywhere. That would by definition mean they cannot sustain FTL speed over long distances.
Click to expand...
I believe what yer looking for is the reason Charmander gave lol
 
Damage3245 said:
"X combat speed (+short-range speed), Y travel speed"
Click to expand...
The only problem with that is I am not sure we'd settle on a "Y travel speed" part because like I said, most of your calcs apart from Snake Way calcs do not capture the characters' full speed due to some or the other reason, so getting a solid "Y" does not seem very likely to me at this point.

My proposal would still be "X combat speed, lower travel speed"

One other thing is that almost everybody here agrees that these characters can fly much faster in short bursts, as is demonstrated by several of their feats. The only reason for them not being able to do that for longer duration comes down to stamina no matter how you look at it. Which is really inconsistent considering they can fight for several minutes at high speeds but don't travel for whatever reason. I guess a note for that can be made.

If others find this solution agreeable, we can work towards it.
 
AKM sama said:
The only problem with that is I am not sure we'd settle on a "Y travel speed" part because like I said, most of your calcs apart from Snake Way calcs do not capture the characters' full speed due to some or the other reason, so getting a solid "Y" does not seem very likely to me at this point.

My proposal would still be "X combat speed, lower travel speed"

One other thing is that almost everybody here agrees that these characters can fly much faster in short bursts, as is demonstrated by several of their feats. The only reason for them not being able to do that for longer duration comes down to stamina no matter how you look at it. Which is really inconsistent considering they can fight for several minutes at high speeds but don't travel for whatever reason. I guess a note for that can be made.

If others find this solution agreeable, we can work towards it.
Click to expand...
I cover that in my complete proposal, please, take a look
GodlyCharmander said:
MY CONCLUSION SO FAR/PROPOSAL​
Alright, I've seen everything both sides have to offer as of now, and came to a, in my opinion, very reasonable proposal that will address both sides accordingly.

OP favorable arguments​
First, we need to consider all the times where the characters needed to get from point A to point B as fast as possible, and yet, they showcase Supersonic+ to Hypersonic+ flight speed. Damage already went through these points, but some of them are,

  • Goku trying to get to the saiyans
  • Z-Fighters looking for Gero's lab
  • Goku trying to look for a shapeship to get out of Namek
And of course, all the calcs Damage provided earlier.

These show instances where it would obviously be inconvenient to the narrative if character X were to get to point B before any repercussions happened. So, yes, these have happened.

Don't worry, I know the opposing side's answers for all these examples, I will address them shortly.

Opposing Side's arguments​
Although these instances do exist, we also have to address some of the valid points the opposing side has provided, where the characters simply run, or flight away from the blasts,


There are other examples where a character with FTL reaction gets blizted by short burst flights in a straight line like Piccolo vs Freeza, but you all get the point.

These are instances that, if going by our current scaling, showcase flight being FTL, and comparable to attack/combat speed. It may seem like an obvious contradiction for an outsider, "how come you take 8 hours to fly 2000km, but outruns faster-than-light attacks occasionally?"

Well, the opposing side have provided evidence that flying for long distances at high speeds consumes an extensive amount of energy from the user, Goku states so when crossing the Snake Way, and implies this when talking to Gohan. So yeah, maintaining FTL flights for a long distance would most likely consume one's energy to exhaustion, right? So they won't do it, because what good does it do if you get there but you're drained? Goku literally implies Gohan would use all his strength for flying to another city by going full speed.

This "answers" most instances where speed is Hypersonic, because if they tried to cross the distance at FTL, they'd be drained. Great, "debunked", right?

No! Because these other instances where they did showcase faster flight speed compared to combat speed still exist! If the energy consumption is so high, how can Goku fly away from MFTL Ki Blasts for several panels and not just be drained? Well, I have a solution.

My solution for the contradictions​
Considering that we've seen characters flying faster or comparably to their attack speed for shorter bursts, I suggest we add information on the Range section of these character profiles. Yes, we put a certain range for their high speed flights, that cannot be maintained for longer than said range, otherwise their energy would be greatly depleted. After said range, they could just maintain a lower flight speed for longer distances, thus, adding the new ratings from Damage, but still addressing that, in a fight, they can easily fly for X distance at the same speed as they fight in. This honestly should satisfy both sides of the argument, and answer the inconsistency provided by this awful, awful show.

"How should we do that?"​
Simple, we take these instances where flight was comparable to combat, calc the distance they've flown, and put this as their range for high speed/FTL flight speed. Otherwise, we can just scale stronger characters to lower tier's ranges as they obviously have a larger energy reserve.

My rating proposal

Goku

Speed: FTL combat speed and ranged flight speed, Hypersonic+/Massively Hypersonic+/etc long-distances flight speed.


How does that sound, everyone?
Click to expand...
 
The only problem with that is I am not sure we'd settle on a "Y travel speed" part because like I said, most of your calcs apart from Snake Way calcs do not capture the characters' full speed due to some or the other reason, so getting a solid "Y" does not seem very likely to me at this point.
Click to expand...

If I can prove that they do capture the character's full speed, would it be fine?
 
GodlyCharmander said:
I cover that in my complete proposal, please, take a look
Click to expand...
Yeah, I did. It's practically the same as "X combat speed, Y travel speed".

Damage3245 said:
If I can prove that they do capture the character's full speed, would it be fine?
Click to expand...
I mean, to make these calcs usable, you'd have to prove that anyway. I am currently working under the assumption that most of those are not usable as of yet.
What do you have to say about the second part of my comment?
 
This part?

My proposal would still be "X combat speed, lower travel speed"
One other thing is that almost everybody here agrees that these characters can fly much faster in short bursts, as is demonstrated by several of their feats. The only reason for them not being able to do that for longer duration comes down to stamina no matter how you look at it. Which is really inconsistent considering they can fight for several minutes at high speeds but don't travel for whatever reason. I guess a note for that can be made.
Click to expand...

Personally, that proposal isn't fully acceptable to me if a more solid figure can be found for their ratings than just "lower" though "lower" would be appropriate for characters whose travel speed is totally unknown, and as you noted the stamina issue is an inconsistency anyway.
 
AKM sama said:
Yeah, I did. It's practically the same as "X combat speed, Y travel speed".
Click to expand...
It isn't.
I particularly address the stamina issue of flying at their combat speeds for a certain range, which is the only reason why some of these feats which are from a character flying in a hurry aren't antifeats according to the disagreeing side. Plus, a range section to address how far they can use their actual flight speed.

"X combat speed and short-burst flight speed, Y long-distances flight speed"
Isn't the same as generalizing "X combat, Y flight"
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Goku's Bō extends to the moon in a very short timeframe (Relativistic to FTL) [Chapter 17]*
Click to expand...
Gag feats from early Dragon Ball shouldn't be used, especially when Goku cannot survive in space even an instant in canon.

(Even in the super anime which was confirmed by Akira Toriyama in Battle of God or directly stated by Vegeta in the Super manga, this was also stated dozens of times during and after the Namek Saga that Saiyan can't survive in space by Frieza for example and it is an important plot point)
 
UeTa said:
Gag feats from early Dragon Ball shouldn't be used, especially when Goku cannot survive in space even an instant in canon.

(Even in the super anime which was confirmed by Akira Toriyama in Battle of God or directly stated by Vegeta in the Super manga, this was also stated dozens of times during and after the Namek Saga that Saiyan can't survive in space by Frieza for example and it is an important plot point)
Click to expand...
He did note that one was an outlier at least.

Though I agree it's not really a valid feat in the first place due to the gag nature of it.
 
Damage3245 said:
He did note that one was an outlier at least.

Though I agree it's not really a valid feat in the first place due to the gag nature of it.
Click to expand...
LOT of early Dragon Ball feat are gags. (WARNING : I'm gonna start mumbling)

At least for me, Like Roshi "Moon Busting" since it is during this era of the manga.

Like: I highly doubt it is a legit feat. It was before the manga starts becoming "serious" and drawn its main plot line.
  • (It was still following the "Dragon Boy" formula, which was Akira previous work. Hence why King Piccolo didn't get HUGE feats)

For me Akira started to understand the power-scale of his manga when King Piccolo was introduced. But he retcon lot of early feats, like with Piccolo that got a "moon busting" feat too that is faaar later than Roshi's one while being far stronger than Roshi instead of having something greater than that.

But that's only my opinion and I'm 99.99% sure nobody have the same out there. 🗿

unknown.png
 
Yeah no we've got Roshi moon busting, Kami restoring the moon, decrepit king piccolo being above anything roshi thinks he could possibly ever do and for post tournament piccolo at the beginning of Z being a casual moon buster it's all consistent so nah the fact you're saying the moon feats are all gags is just spit at the narrative and how like almost all source material involved with dragon ball had described Roshi in dragon ball as being a moon buster

That said this is derailing so we can get back on topic
 
UeTa said:
LOT of early Dragon Ball feat are gags. (WARNING : I'm gonna start mumbling)

At least for me, Like Roshi "Moon Busting" since it is during this era of the manga.

Like: I highly doubt it is a legit feat. It was before the manga starts becoming "serious" and drawn its main plot line.
  • (It was still following the "Dragon Boy" formula, which was Akira previous work. Hence why King Piccolo didn't get HUGE feats)

For me Akira started to understand the power-scale of his manga when King Piccolo was introduced. But he retcon lot of early feats, like with Piccolo that got a "moon busting" feat too that is faaar later than Roshi's one while being far stronger than Roshi instead of having something greater than that.

But that's only my opinion and I'm 99.99% sure nobody have the same out there. 🗿

unknown.png
Click to expand...
boring-unimpressed.gif
 
UeTa said:
LOT of early Dragon Ball feat are gags. (WARNING : I'm gonna start mumbling)

At least for me, Like Roshi "Moon Busting" since it is during this era of the manga.

Like: I highly doubt it is a legit feat. It was before the manga starts becoming "serious" and drawn its main plot line.
  • (It was still following the "Dragon Boy" formula, which was Akira previous work. Hence why King Piccolo didn't get HUGE feats)

For me Akira started to understand the power-scale of his manga when King Piccolo was introduced. But he retcon lot of early feats, like with Piccolo that got a "moon busting" feat too that is faaar later than Roshi's one while being far stronger than Roshi instead of having something greater than that.

But that's only my opinion and I'm 99.99% sure nobody have the same out there. 🗿

unknown.png
Click to expand...
Mangá: Has comedy and gags

UeTa: "EVERY CONCEIVABLE FEAT IS AUTOMATICALLY INVALID"


Here, how about we don't step on this minefield, it has nothing to do with the OP.
 
There's also Goku and Popo moving faster than lightning, Burter outspeeding a dragon ball Vegeta threw with all of his force, Goku coming behind Jeice and Burter before their scouters registered anything, Krillin and Gohan blitzing Guldo despite his time stops and many many more feats
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
There's also Goku and Popo moving faster than lightning, Burter outspeeding a dragon ball Vegeta threw with all of his force, Goku coming behind Jeice and Burter before their scouters registered anything, Krillin and Gohan blitzing Guldo despite his time stops and many many more feats
Click to expand...
There is also Goku getting hurt by a rock while in Super Saiyan grade 2, and scratched in the Super anime and manga by a bullet after assimilating the Power of the Super Saiyan God within him by just having his Ki disturbed because of the Kaio-ken x20, which virtually gave his normal body a durability equivalent to his chapter 1 self.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Mangá: Has comedy and gags

UeTa: "EVERY CONCEIVABLE FEAT IS AUTOMATICALLY INVALID"


Here, how about we don't step on this minefield, it has nothing to do with the OP.
Click to expand...
Basically this is a:

"NICE ARGUMENT SENATOR, BUT WHY DON'T YOU BACK IT UP WITH A SOURCE"

"MY SOURCE IS THAT I MADE IT THE **** UP"

moment.

That's all the derailing you get from me.
 
UeTa said:
There is also Goku getting hurt by a rock while in Super Saiyan grade 2, and scratched in the Super anime and manga by a bullet after assimilating the Power of the Super Saiyan God within him by just having his Ki disturbed because of the Kaio-ken x20, which virtually gave his normal body a durability equivalent to his chapter 1 self.
Click to expand...
So, you have chosen death.
 
Piccolo and Roshi's Ki Blasts are outliers. Every other speed feat in the series is pathetically slower compared to them and the characters should be rescaled accordingly.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
Piccolo and Roshi's Ki Blasts are outliers. Every other speed feat in the series is pathetically slower compared to them and the characters should be rescaled accordingly.
Click to expand...
You are incapable of even defining how an outlier is even considerable in the first place.

This has nothing to do with this thread, and will likely be made into a combat speed revision later. Don't worry, if you show up, I will personally prove you wrong there, again. But here is definitely not the place, so I ask you before this escalates any further, don't derail this thread with this bullshit, please.
 
KLOL506 said:
in b4 "this is only combat speed because short bursts"
Click to expand...
You guys realize that using examples of Flight Speed outpacing Ki Blasts or Attacks are proof that the characters are slow, right?

Like, Krillin's Flight Speed is blatantly faster than Reecome's Ki Blast, a character who has a far higher Power Level than Krillin at that time. And this same Krillin takes two hours to fly from Guru's palace to Bulma's hideout and back.

2jQsIpN.jpg

siKEXfl.jpg

psIHCzU.jpg


There are several examples of feats like this but nobody will ever give a shit because Dragon Ball is a pet verse because of how well established it is in Vs Debating websites and so it is simply not analyzed with any level of scrutiny like a series that's releasing now would be.
 
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