Revising Dragon Ball Flight Speed (Dragon Ball + DBZ + DBS Manga)

[SirAlex09]

My rating proposal

Goku

Speed: FTL combat speed and ranged flight speed, Hypersonic+/Massively Hypersonic+/etc long-distances flight speed.

I prefer this. It addresses both sides pretty well. Every other option doesn't grasp the issue as good as this one does.

 

[Damage3245]

"Ranged flight speed" is an odd term that doesn't seem right. Is that supposed to be "close ranged flight speed"?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

"Ranged flight speed" is an odd term that doesn't seem right. Is that supposed to be "close ranged flight speed"?

Yes and no. Long distance flight refers to the highest sustainable flight speed, their true flight speed is whatever the combat speed is.

 

[Damage3245]

Yes and no. Long distance flight refers to the highest sustainable flight speed, their true flight speed is whatever the combat speed is.

Out of curiosity, what is the maximum amount of time they can sustain their "true flight speed / combat speed"?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Out of curiosity, what is the maximum amount of time they can sustain their "true flight speed / combat speed"?

I don't know.
Goku was capable of doing it for ~2 days but was completely drained after (he has insane stamina which needs to be taken into account). But it's inconsistent since 2 days is plenty of time to get around places on earth which is a far smaller distance.
To avoid a headache, I'll just say they willingly chose to not use max flight speed for long distances/long periods of time.

 

[Vizer04]

To avoid a headache, I'll just say they willingly chose to not use max flight speed for long distances/long periods of time.

This can be easily debunked:

It took Frieza several minutes to fly from the Great Elder's House to where Krillin, Gohan and Dende were summoning Porunga, which makes him Hypersonic+ at the maximum (and he wasn't holding back his speed at all)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Anyway; I'll start drafting together the changes that would need to be made based on Charmander's suggestion. I won't suggest revising the speeds completely for now, but will seek to just split flight speed and combat speed (to make the profiles a little simpler, let's just define the "close ranged slight speed" as part of DBZ combat speed, so profiles would look like this:

Gotenks

Speed: Massively FTL+ combat speed (Much faster than both Son Goten and Trunks), Massively Hypersonic+ flight speed (Circled the Earth several times quickly) | Massively FTL+ combat speed (Faster than Innocent Buu but slower than Super Buu), at least Massively Hypersonic+ flight speed (Faster than before) | Massively FTL+ combat speed (Can keep up with Super Buu), at least Massively Hypersonic+ flight speed (Faster than before)




That seems like proof that Goku's maximum flight speed is far slower than what it is rated as currently.

Oh yeah, multipliers would be a part of that too. But that's something we need to figure out later.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still agree more with GodlyCharmander.

 

[Damage3245]

I still agree more with GodlyCharmander.

I'm pretty sure we all mostly agree on the compromise put forward by Charmander.

Any further revisions would have to be handled in a separate thread.

For now, the rest of this thread will be focused on assigning the new flight speed ratings to the characters, and which ratings makes the most sense.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"Ranged flight speed" is an odd term that doesn't seem right. Is that supposed to be "close ranged flight speed"?

I think "Short burst flight speed" sounds better like what used to be listed

 

[GodlyCharmander]

"Ranged flight speed" is an odd term that doesn't seem right. Is that supposed to be "close ranged flight speed"?

Blame that on my non-fluent English, I don't know what sounds natural to you guys.

Either way, we can also just add short burst speeds to the range section instead, if you think the formatting will look better without it in the speed section.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I will look into some travel speed feats for Early DB, make some calcs, and make a scaling chain for travel. Damage gladly covered most of the Travel Speed feats for DBZ up to namek saga.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Another thing, I was also asked to wait for AKM Sama. I heard he likely has more disagreements with nuking flight speed outright.

Also, another thing I should have noted is that I would rather not have long term flight speed listed as opposed to having a much lower rating listed after the "Combat, reactions and short burst flight speed". It just looks like it's going to be really messy however it's written, and the combat speed parts are the thing people care most about anyway. But I'll still wait for AKM as KLOL informed me. As it doesn't look like they're going to agree to that either and wish to just keep the speed ratings outright.

 

[Damage3245]

It being messy may be the price we have to pay for not revising combat speed for now.

But there's been no discussion of "nuking flight speed outright" as far as my understanding of it goes.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's also something I'm definitely going to have disagree with too, and arguments made against that are also awful tbh. The Solar Flare stuff is also Ki generated meaning I don't think it should be treated as having a static speed of light attack speed if that's their only counterargument against it. I was informed of that much earlier and don't agree with those at all period and should have much sooner.

 

[Stefano4444]

Also, another thing I should have noted is that I would rather not have long term flight speed listed as opposed to having a much lower rating listed after the "Combat, reactions and short burst flight speed". It just looks like it's going to be really messy however it's written, and the combat speed parts are the thing people care most about anyway.

Personally i think It would be better if we simplify by having combat speed and reactions in one hand and travel speed in the other hand, without overcomplicate everything with terms like short burst flight speed and long term flight speed.

 

[Damage3245]

That was one of the antifeats mentioned earlier, yeah.


That being one of the antifeats doesn't make it an "awful argument". As I pointed out, it is headcanon to assume that the light generated by the Solar Flare gets faster if the user has more Ki, that hasn't been said anywhere in the manga or the databooks.

 

[Damage3245]

Personally i think It would be better if we simplify by having combat speed and reactions in one hand and travel speed in the other hand, without overcomplicate everything with terms like short burst flight speed and long term flight speed.

I agree.

 

[KLOL506]

That was one of the antifeats mentioned earlier, yeah.


That being one of the antifeats doesn't make it an "awful argument". As I pointed out, it is headcanon to assume that the light generated by the Solar Flare gets faster if the user has more Ki, that hasn't been said anywhere in the manga or the databooks.

First off, does Solar Flare even qualify for the Light Speed Criteria? Does it reflect on shiny metal objects? Does it undergo refraction when in water? Is it reliably stated to be light speed anywhere in the manga, anime or guidebooks? We do know it doesn't fit the rule of originating from a realistic piece of technology.

 

[StekFence]

shiny metal objects?

It reflects off sufficiently shiny heads, although this might be a gag or somethin

 

[AKM sama]

As I pointed out, it is headcanon to assume that the light generated by the Solar Flare gets faster if the user has more Ki, that hasn't been said anywhere in the manga or the databooks.

It is a ki attack and nothing states the light is natural. Krillin has modified the technique further to produce light that can pierce through even if the eyes are closed and makes the person unable to use extrasensory perception which makes sense to say it is like any other ki attack, which depend upon the user. This also explains why people always keep getting caught by that attack even in DBS.

Anyway, if the issue is that the character can maintain an amount of speed for a short burst but doesn't maintain the same level for longer timeframe, then that is stamina at play. It's like, they can fly at those speeds but they don't. We could simply mention that in the stamina section that their long term flight speeds are lower because of that reason, and rate their travel speed as "lower" (this is a generally accepted fact and we even have a note of it, I believe). Something like "X combat speed, lower travel speed".

Giving Gotenks a MHS+ rating on him circling the Earth doesn't make sense because the calc does not capture the full extent of his power. He casually circled the Earth a few dozen times in a timeframe we don't know. And most of the travel speed calcs are like that, they give a heavily lowballed number. Krillin saying he is faster than Bulma's ship at his full speed does not mean his speed is comparable to the ship's, just like Dyspo saying he surpassed light speed long ago does not mean he is only a bit faster than light.

I'll also ping @SomebodyData for more input.

 

[KLOL506]

It reflects off sufficiently shiny heads, although this might be a gag or somethin

Definitely a gag I'd reckon, because it'd reflect on Tien's head too otherwise.

 

[Damage3245]

First off, does Solar Flare even qualify for the Light Speed Criteria? Does it reflect on shiny metal objects? Does it undergo refraction when in water? Is it reliably stated to be light speed anywhere in the manga, anime or guidebooks? We do know it doesn't fit the rule of originating from a realistic piece of technology.

Strictly speaking, those criteria exist for beams / lasers as far as I understood?

Giving Gotenks a MHS+ rating on him circling the Earth doesn't make sense because that is not the full extent of his power. He casually circled the Earth a few dozen times in a timeframe we don't know.

We do know the timeframe and he boasted of his speed afterwards, suggesting that it is not some completely casual feats that all of the cast is capable of, plus Piccolo was slower than him.

Anyway, if the issue is that the character can maintain an amount of speed for a short burst but doesn't maintain the same level for longer timeframe, then that is stamina at play. It's like, they can fly at those speeds but they don't. We could simply mention that in the stamina section that their long term flight speeds are lower because of that reason, and rate their travel speed as "lower". Something like "X combat speed, lower travel speed".

That argument doesn't really work unless their stamina only lasts for milliseconds in-verse.

 

[KLOL506]

It is a ki attack and nothing states the light is natural. Krillin has modified the technique further to produce light that can pierce through even if the eyes are closed and makes the person unable to use extrasensory perception.

Yeah, I thought so.

Anyway, if the issue is that the character can maintain an amount of speed for a short burst but doesn't maintain the same level for longer timeframe, then that is stamina at play. It's like, they can fly at those speeds but they don't. We could simply mention that in the stamina section that their long term flight speeds are lower because of that reason, and rate their travel speed as "lower". Something like "X combat speed, lower travel speed".

Giving Gotenks a MHS+ rating on him circling the Earth doesn't make sense because that is not the full extent of his power. He casually circled the Earth a few dozen times in a timeframe we don't know.

This is a much better option to take.

 

[KLOL506]

Strictly speaking, those criteria exist for beams / lasers as far as I understood?

It isn't exclusively kept for beams and lasers, no.

 

[Damage3245]

It isn't exclusively kept for beams and lasers, no.

Okay, fair enough.

Also, I will just add that this is the description of the technique:

Special Characteristics: A Tsuru-sen School technique. Tenshinhan first used it during his fight with Goku at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budoukai [he actually first uses it against Jacky Chun]. Gathering ki in his upper body, he converts it to light energy and radiates it out in front of his face. Blinding the opponent’s eyes, this is used when retreating from battle. The amount of light is connected to the strength of the person’s ki, and the light source will become stronger the more ki the user has. The first person from outside the Tsuru-sen School to use this technique was Goku. (Daizenshuu 4, p.113)

It is not Ki itself, but Ki that has been converted into light from the sounds of it.

 

[KLOL506]

It is not Ki itself, but Ki that has been converted into light from the sounds of it.

Source for where it is stated that it converts the ki to light energy? Even with that, you'd still need to show a few more qualifying criteria, like reflection/refraction and/or diffusion.

 

[Damage3245]

Source for where it is stated that it converts the ki to light energy? Even with that, you'd still need to show a few more qualifying criteria, like reflection/refraction and/or diffusion.

This bit?

Gathering ki in his upper body, he converts it to light energy and radiates it out in front of his face.

 

[AKM sama]

We do know the timeframe and he boasted of his speed afterwards, suggesting that it is not some completely casual feats that all of the cast is capable of, plus Piccolo was slower than him.

He boasted about being faster than Piccolo and the timeframe contains a nap which is unquantifiable. We don't have the actual timeframe for the feat and we don't have the actual number of rounds Gotenks made. The calc, by all means, is useless.

 

[Damage3245]

He boasted about being faster than Piccolo and the timeframe contains a nap which is unquantifiable. We don't have the actual timeframe and we don't have the actual number of rounds Gotenks made. The calc, by all means, is useless.

It's... really not? We know that the total span of time is 29 minutes, with the nap being a part of that and the circling of the Earth also being a part of that.

The calc is far from useless, and it is far from the only travel speed calc we have.

And you're still not addressing that it took time for Piccolo to catch up to him.

 

[KLOL506]

This bit?

Aye.

 

[Damage3245]

Aye.

It's from the Daizenshuu 4, apparently.

 

[AKM sama]

I mean, once again, 29 minute covers a nap which took how much time? We don't know. How much distance did Gotenks travel? We don't know. How many seconds he took to make all those rounds across the Earth? We don't know. It's a useless calc.

And like I said, most other calcs also do not capture the full extent of their speeds. Like Krillin and Gohan flying on Namek, which I have given my reasons to disagree with because that is not them at their full speed. Apart from those, the only useful calcs are from the Snake Way.

 

[Damage3245]

I mean, once again, 29 minute covers a nap which took how much time? We don't know. How much distance did Gotenks travel? We don't know. How many seconds he took to make all those rounds across the Earth? We don't know. It's a useless calc.

And like I said, most other calcs also do not capture the full extent of their speeds. Like Krillin and Gohan flying on Namek, which I have given my reasons to disagree with because that is not them at their full speed. Apart from those, the only useful calcs are from the Snake Way.

If your reasons for objecting to them are incorrect, then the travel speed feats are valid, is that fair to say?

Think about the implication of what you're saying for the Gotenks calc; if say he completed his circling of the Earth in 1 minute and he took a 28 minute nap; that would mean that it took around 28 mintues for Piccolo (who was hurrying judging by his panting for breath when he's done) to catch up to Gotenks somewhere on Earth.

That is a clear speed anti-feat no matter how you look at it.

 

[AKM sama]

It's still based on assumptions. A few dozen at least means more than a couple dozens. Which would be like, 36, 48, 60, 72 and so on. A nap can be anything. Yes, it is an outlier for Piccolo if he couldn't even find Gotenks on Earth in a span of however long that nap took because he should be much much faster even if you apply the appropriate multiplers to Snake Way travel speed.

Like if you're saying Piccolo is not able to cross half of Earth's circumference in a span of 15 minutes at this point of time in the story, that screams outlier even with the lowballed travel speeds you have calculated, so that shouldn't be a point.

 

[Damage3245]

It's still based on assumptions. A few dozen at least means more than a couple dozens. Which would be like, 36, 48, 60, 72 and so on. A nap can be anything. Yes, it is an outlier for Piccolo if he couldn't even find Gotenks on Earth in a span of however long that nap too because he should be much much faster even if you apply the appropriate multiplers to Snake Way travel speed.

Many calcs have to make reasonable assumptions.

If you'd think it be best, I will prepare a blog post going into detail for every single feat and explaining the context of them as I understand it from the manga. This should hopefully alleviate some of your concerns like "The Namek feats aren't valid because Ki suppression" and stuff like that.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Dragon Ball - Travel Speed Feats
Note: A bit off topic, but Toriyama is kinda psychotic, going through these earlier chapters honestly disgusted me with all the children stuff.

Pilaf Saga

• Early Goku states a motorcycle is faster than he can run [Chapter 1]
• Goku gets the Kinto-un, which was confirmed to be Mach 1.5 (Supersonic) [Chapter 4, Daizenshuu 7]
• Transformed Oolong can flee from Kinto-un [Chapter 6]
• Chi-Chi outruns a Tyrannosaurus Rex, which can run at 7,5m/s (Average Human+) [Chapter 11]
• Goku's Bō extends to the moon in a very short timeframe (Relativistic to FTL) [Chapter 17]*
• Krillin can run 100m in around 10 seconds, or 10m/s (Athletic Human+) [Chapter 28]
• Prior to any training, Goku can run 100m in 8.5 seconds, or 11.76m/s (Peak Human+) [Chapter 28]
• Roshi can run 100m in 5.6 seconds, or 17.5m/s (Superhuman) [Chapter 28]

This scales to the Pilaf Saga key because it's before the tournament or any sort of training. Also, Goku's page states Roshi said that even without training, Goku should run 100m in 5s, which is untrue, he says that, WITH training, they should do it.

* - Outlier

Spoiler: PILAF SAGA SCALING

Goku​

Speed: Peak Human+ with Subsonic combat and reaction speed, Supersonic with Flying Nimbus

Chi-Chi​

Speed: Average Human+, with Superhuman reaction speeds

Krillin (Does not have a Pilaf Saga key)

Yamcha​

Speed: Athletic Human+ with Subsonic combat speed and reactions

Master Roshi (Does not have a Pilaf Saga key)

21st Budokai

• Roshi stated that, with training, both Krillin and Goku should run 100m in 5 seconds, or 20m/s (Supersonic) [Chapter 28]
• Roshi, Goku and Krillin outruns dinosaurs [Chapter 30]
• Goku and Krillin outrun a shark while swimming, 2.2m/s (Below Average Human) [Chapter 31]
• While at full strength, Goku runs so fast it's as if he disappeared for his opponent (Subsonic) [Chapter 33]
• Goku can jump and descend at the same speed as Nam (Supersonic) [Chapter 45]

Spoiler: 21st Budokai Scaling

Goku​

Speed: Subsonic with Supersonic combat speed

Krillin​

Speed: Subsonic with Supersonic combat speed

Master Roshi​

Speed: Subsonic with Supersonic combat speed

Yamcha​

Speed: Superhuman with Supersonic combat speed

General Blue Saga

• Ninja Murasaki can somewhat keep up with Goku's travel speed, albeit slower [Chapter 60]

That's it.

Commander Red Saga

• Tao Pai Pai can jump and catch up to his pillar, and travel with it (Hypersonic+) [Chapter 85]
• After the magic water training, Goku completed a trip in 3 hours, when it took him 24 hours to do it before. [Chapter 89]

Well, that's 100 chapters, or about more than half OG DB, I will finish this later, if you all don't mind

 

[Damage3245]

@GodlyCharmander; thank you very much for the rearching you've put into the original Dragon Ball.

EDIT: Nam's speed is accepted on the wiki as Supersonic though, not Supersonic+.

 

[KingTempest]

First off, does Solar Flare even qualify for the Light Speed Criteria? Does it reflect on shiny metal objects? Does it undergo refraction when in water? Is it reliably stated to be light speed anywhere in the manga, anime or guidebooks? We do know it doesn't fit the rule of originating from a realistic piece of technology.

Those criteria are for beams and whatnot, not things like flashes of light.

"Light" or "Laser" dodging is a fairly common trope seen in fiction and often the center of debate regarding characters speeds, given that light is the fastest known thing in the real universe. This article will set forth the standards of this wiki in determining what is considered a real "light beam" and what to do once the feat has achieved that status.

Standards for laser determination​

Most lasers in fiction are not real or provable as real. Often they are supernatural in nature and do not function anywhere close to how real light should. Therefore, lasers/light beams are only accepted as real if they meet, at a minimum, a few of these criteria:

Or else people would need to prove flash bangs and the sun's rays are lightspeed.
Things like that shouldn't even need to be contested

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Well, Goku still reacted and traveled fast enough to grab Roshi's sunglasses before the light reached his eyes, and he didn't close them while doing it