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I'm with KLOL on this mate, this whole thing of taking people that disagree with a revision needing to happen and labeling them as "not actually interested in debating" is really close-minded
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Revising Dragon Ball Flight Speed (Dragon Ball + DBZ + DBS Manga)
- Thread starter Damage3245
- Start date
- 30,398
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- Thread starter
- #522
I don't see how. If people are disagreeing with a proposal without even seeing the details of what they proposal consists of, then they're being close-minded.
If I said "I think Super Saiyan Goku getting a Lifting Strength upgrade is a possible option" and didn't explain what to, or how, and people said "That's not an option, obviously", I'd be weirded out by that.
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- Thread starter
- #525
If I never did, then yeah.
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But... they are reading it. You're shifting it now from "people disagreeing" to "people who haven't read it that are disagreeing"
I disagree that a revision needs to happen. Am I just not interested in debating?
Vizer04
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Why you disagree?
Vizer04
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Because there isn't
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Buu destroys hundreds of planets in several years? And this is just one example
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Because we have examples of characters' flight speed scaling to attack speed, such as Goku on Namek flying away from Frieza's Death Saucer. The only answer I got on that was "well maybe Death Saucer itself is just a slower attack" which makes zero sense within the context of the moment
SirAlex09
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That was debunked on this Wiki. Babidi/ Bibidi probably flew him from planet to planet
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How do you know the speed of Frieza's attack?
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Yeah, it seems like there are just as much cases of characters speed being very high, as much as them not being fast
Also, another thing I remembered is that Namek Saga Goku can travel fast enough that Jeice and Burter's scouters don't register Goku being gone until he shows up behind them
And this was not combat speed. He literally just traveled a distance
Also, another thing I remembered is that Namek Saga Goku can travel fast enough that Jeice and Burter's scouters don't register Goku being gone until he shows up behind them
And this was not combat speed. He literally just traveled a distance
SirAlex09
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This is ridiculous though.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Proof?
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Well I'm going to assume Freeza wouldnt opt to use an attack incomparably slower than Goku or his other attacks.
If it's REALLY that slow, why wouldnt he use a death beam, an attack that couldn't even be perceived by everyone bar Vegeta and Goku?
SirAlex09
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That's what the Wiki's stance though. It was either Matthew or AKM-Sama. I will get the thread
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I am going to make a thread about that feat.
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- #539
Goku already proved that the Death Beam isn't effective on him.
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That still doesn't show that it is LS. It could be Mach 40 and Goku reacted at Mach 50
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Can you show the scan? I ain't searching hundreds of comments
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Except it scales above attacks that are incomparably and quantifiably faster than that. Including Kaioken Goku, who'd be triple digit mach even using the snake way feat, which that alone makes some of what's being said a issue.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Frieza already had at least Relativistic speeds when he destroyed Planet Vegeta
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- Thread starter
- #545
Since I know we're not going to get anywhere tonight, I'll settle on just getting the calcs applied to the verse page.
CloverDragon has agreed the calcs are correct (mathematically). Anyone else got any reason to disapprove?
Once that bit is done, I'll work on the next step which is "Making a list of Accepted anti-feats." That way we can discard arguments that are rejected by everyone, and keep track of which anti-feats are acceptable to make judgements based on them.
CloverDragon has agreed the calcs are correct (mathematically). Anyone else got any reason to disapprove?
Once that bit is done, I'll work on the next step which is "Making a list of Accepted anti-feats." That way we can discard arguments that are rejected by everyone, and keep track of which anti-feats are acceptable to make judgements based on them.
SirAlex09
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It's literally the first Comment ..
"Massively FTL Buu: Has been agreed to be wrong, as the feat was based on shaky assumptions that are contradicted by the manga proper. When I made the calculation, I assumed that Buu flew across the galaxy like in the anime, but the manga states that Bibidi would seal him, and use his spaceship to drive Buu into his next target, and then release him again. This is why the East Kaioshin was capable of stopping Buu in the end."
Staff agreed on that stance.
Vizer04
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I agree with this
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- Thread starter
- #549
If we get to the point where it can only be solved with more staff input, then maybe, but for now I want as many people as possible to give their input on this and so far the thread hasn't been too chaotic.
We'll see though.
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Sounds fine to me.
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I doubt Frieza would use a slow attack when he's trying to kill Goku as quickly as possible
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The Kid Goku one? To my knowledge, we don't have a concrete timeframe on it
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- #554
Yeah, we don't. We don't know if Goku only started travelling on the same day. We don't know if he did it all in one go. It's a very nebulous feat compared to some of the other ones that have been calced.
Vizer04
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He did, if he stopped to sleep or something else he would've said it.
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I am fine with separating flight speed but scale to combat speed if there are instances of out pacing ki attacks.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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He both went this in one go, and on the same day, otherwise Goku would've mentioned he needed to sleep, or that he needed to stop in order to complete the trip, two things you consistently ignore
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I think you mean two things I consistently disagree with you on.
GodlyCharmander
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MY CONCLUSION SO FAR/PROPOSAL
Alright, I've seen everything both sides have to offer as of now, and came to a, in my opinion, very reasonable proposal that will address both sides accordingly.OP favorable arguments
First, we need to consider all the times where the characters needed to get from point A to point B as fast as possible, and yet, they showcase Supersonic+ to Hypersonic+ flight speed. Damage already went through these points, but some of them are,- Goku trying to get to the saiyans
- Z-Fighters looking for Gero's lab
- Goku trying to look for a shapeship to get out of Namek
These show instances where it would obviously be inconvenient to the narrative if character X were to get to point B before any repercussions happened. So, yes, these have happened.
Don't worry, I know the opposing side's answers for all these examples, I will address them shortly.
Opposing Side's arguments
Although these instances do exist, we also have to address some of the valid points the opposing side has provided, where the characters simply run, or flight away from the blasts,- Goku outruns Piccolo's Chi Blast
- Raditz runs away from Goku's Kamehameha long enough to deliver some lines
- Goku flies to Freeza's location faster than he can move his arm to kill Vegeta (albeit casual, should still be FTL Combat Speed being outsped by Goku's Flight Speed)
- Freeza flies far away and blitzes Vegeta
- SSJ Goku outruns Freeza's Kienzans with flight
There are other examples where a character with FTL reaction gets blizted by short burst flights in a straight line like Piccolo vs Freeza, but you all get the point.
These are instances that, if going by our current scaling, showcase flight being FTL, and comparable to attack/combat speed. It may seem like an obvious contradiction for an outsider, "how come you take 8 hours to fly 2000km, but outruns faster-than-light attacks occasionally?"
Well, the opposing side have provided evidence that flying for long distances at high speeds consumes an extensive amount of energy from the user, Goku states so when crossing the Snake Way, and implies this when talking to Gohan. So yeah, maintaining FTL flights for a long distance would most likely consume one's energy to exhaustion, right? So they won't do it, because what good does it do if you get there but you're drained? Goku literally implies Gohan would use all his strength for flying to another city by going full speed.
This "answers" most instances where speed is Hypersonic, because if they tried to cross the distance at FTL, they'd be drained. Great, "debunked", right?
No! Because these other instances where they did showcase faster flight speed compared to combat speed still exist! If the energy consumption is so high, how can Goku fly away from MFTL Ki Blasts for several panels and not just be drained? Well, I have a solution.
My solution for the contradictions
Considering that we've seen characters flying faster or comparably to their attack speed for shorter bursts, I suggest we add information on the Range section of these character profiles. Yes, we put a certain range for their high speed flights, that cannot be maintained for longer than said range, otherwise their energy would be greatly depleted. After said range, they could just maintain a lower flight speed for longer distances, thus, adding the new ratings from Damage, but still addressing that, in a fight, they can easily fly for X distance at the same speed as they fight in. This honestly should satisfy both sides of the argument, and answer the inconsistency provided by this awful, awful show."How should we do that?"
Simple, we take these instances where flight was comparable to combat, calc the distance they've flown, and put this as their range for high speed/FTL flight speed. Otherwise, we can just scale stronger characters to lower tier's ranges as they obviously have a larger energy reserve.My rating proposal
Goku
Speed: FTL combat speed and ranged flight speed, Hypersonic+/Massively Hypersonic+/etc long-distances flight speed.
How does that sound, everyone?
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Interesting. I'm fine with it.
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