Request for Indexing Hax Layering/Smurf Hax on Profiles

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It seems odd to me that, despite this being a wiki focused on the indexing on fictional characters and their abilities, there is one subset of abilities we consistently overlook; Potency. There are, of course, two ways to measure potency; Layers and Smurf hax. Yet, nowhere on any profile is there any mention of these concepts. To someone uninitiated with a verse, it may seem as though every ability only has a single layer, or would be ineffective against anyone who has any degree of resistance to those abilities. But often, mentions of layering or smurf hax are either 1. Confined to lengthy cosmology/verse explanation blogs, or 2. Not mentioned at all, and just pieces of information only really accessible to verse supporters. A particularly infamous example of this is Anos' 99+ layers of concept hax; Seems pretty notable, given it makes virtually all matches against him a stomp in his favor, right? Which is why it's weird that nowhere is that layering present on his profile; Instead, it's only mentioned towards the end of the incredibly long Maou Gakuin cosmology page. Consider, then, how this looks to casual visitors to this wiki, who merely want information on a character they like. Should we not list that information on the profile itself, so we don't force visitors to dig through lengthy explanations that they may not even understand? Even for people who frequent the forums this is an issue, as it makes it incredibly difficult to find fair VS matches, since there's no real way to gauge whether or not a character has a way to resist certain wincons, leading to numerous matches that amount to "(x)'s soulhax are more layered/are higher-dimensional than ( y)'s resistance, stomp thread". Listing hax potency on profiles would make situations like that far rarer, and also bypasses the issue of having to do a ******* essay's worth of research just to make a good VS match. And all of that is assuming a verse even has an explanation page explaining hax layering and smurfiness in the first place, which isn't always the case.

Thus, I propose each ability in a character's profile mention the number of layers each ability possesses, as well as the dimensionality of those hax. For example: Mind Manipulation (2 Layers. 5D; [Justification here]). For characters without layers or smurfiness, there wouldn't be any need to change the ability description.

There is, of course, the issue of the amount of work involved. First off, not all verses have layered hax or smurf hax; In fact, very few do, so the amount of work required wouldn't be as large as our page total makes it seem. Secondly, the amount of work isn't even particularly high for some verses; Some, like Umineko, have hax like Truths that already have a clearly defined level of potency, which would be very easy to add to individual profiles. And of course, this wouldn't even need to be a necessary addition; Consider the recent changes to resurrection/immortality, which dictates that the level of regeneration those abilities grant should be specified. There are thousands of users of those powers, and not all of them have their corresponding regen levels indexed. But nobody seems to mind the work involved with that, since the change was objectively for the better and made profiles much more accurate in regards to a character's regenerative capabilities. This is no different. Supporters of different verses can add layering/smurfiness to the profiles as they wish, depending on how important they think it is.

While I'm not sure where this would go, I would recommend writing a suggestion in the wiki rules somewhere that would read somewhat like the following:

"While not strictly required, it is advisable to index the potency of a character's abilities in their P&A section when creating or editing a profile. This can include the ability to overpower the resistances of characters who would ordinarily resist certain abilities (also known as 'hax layering'; Not to be confused with Resistance Negation), or whether or not the potency of an ability corresponds to that of a higher dimension (also known as 'smurf hax')."

 

[azontr]

Gigachad thread.

 

[Shmooply]

Based and multiple layers of redpilled.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Yes, going into a Vs Battle and having to ask each and every time how many layers of which hax and resistances and to what level of dimensionality gets repetitive.

Also, it would help avoid any false information getting passed around since that also happens a lot by accident.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Yes please, it's so tedious to keep asking everyone and their mother how many layers said thing is.

Would also make stomp matches so much less prominent.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

While I don’t reply to vsthreads that often, I will say this would probably be useful. Though I feel if a character has the same tier hax for everything, a note or something would be easier to write than listing the tier for every single hax the way your example is implying.

 

[Arceus0x]

we're making the mother of all hax stomps here jack, can't fret over every layer

 

[Rikimarox2]

we're making the mother of all hax stomps here jack, can't fret over every layer

We really can't escape MGRR memes, huh

 

[Arceus0x]

We really can't escape MGRR memes, huh

of course not, memes are the DNA of the soul

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Though I feel if a character has the same tier hax for everything, a note or something would be easier to write than listing the tier for every single hax the way your example is implying.

Yeah, that would probably be best. How would we format it though? Add a note at the beginning of the P&A section?

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Yeah, that would probably be best. How would we format it though? Add a note at the beginning of the P&A section?

maybe after the P&A section but before AP but honestly I wouldn’t be against putting it in the beginning as long as it doesn’t seem too intrusive

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

maybe after the P&A section but before AP but honestly I wouldn’t be against putting it in the beginning as long as it doesn’t seem too intrusive

I think putting it between the P&A section and AP works best.

 

[Bobsican]

TBH such a note would be better in the Hax page, beyond that I extremely agree.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Seems like there's general agreement here. Can someone call more staff?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

This is so unnecessary. We have an actual section on pages to elaborate on abilities if anyone actually cared or bothered to use it. This whole thread wouldn't even be an issue if people read the whole page.

We have forgotten that the P&A section is supposed to be concise and to the point. This is just adding filler nobody outside thread debating actually care about.

 

[Bobsican]

Actually, I've seen complaints off-site of hax potency being rather vague, currently our viewers actually expect the Notable Attacks/Techniques section to just expand on what's already on the page, rather than have "exclusive" details that'd pertain P&As like that one.
It doesn't help that any "decent" Notable Attacks/Techniques section is also rather large and doesn't really allows to just search for a certain ability out of it just using the official/in-verse name for the thing in question instead, which speaks by itself.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This is so unnecessary. We have an actual section on pages to elaborate on abilities if anyone actually cared or bothered to use it. This whole thread wouldn't even be an issue if people read the whole page.

Honestly I'm not opposed to moving hax layering stuff to the notable attacks/techniques section, but not every character has one that covers every single one of their hax. Hell, some characters don't have one at all. What exactly do we do there? This isn't even really an argument against the addition itself, it's just a matter of where to put it.

This gets even more confusing when you add resistance layers into the mix, since I don't ever recall seeing resistances indexed in the NA/T section before. How would you suggest we index layered/smurf resistances, then?

We have forgotten that the P&A section is supposed to be concise and to the point. This is just adding filler nobody outside thread debating actually care about.

I don't think that's true, I barely give a shit about VS threads but I'm still interested in indexing hax layers and potency. They're a statistic that can be used to measure the combat effectiveness of a character, just like almost everything else we list on profiles; Why shouldn't we index it?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually, I've seen complaints off-site of hax potency being rather vague, currently our viewers actually expect the Notable Attacks/Techniques section to just expand on what's already on the page, rather than have "exclusive" details that'd pertain P&As like that one.

This is also true ^

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Hax potency is not a verifiable metric. There's no universal system between verses. We have no way of portraying a standardised potency that we can use between all profiles.

 

[Bobsican]

We wouldn't use an in-universe metric to begin with, as much as we have our own systems to quantify stuff such as Regeneration and AP, we'd just use a numerical metric based on how many layers any given ability has shown to bypass based on provided evidence that'd be evaluated on a case by case basis, as we do with everything else, in fact that kind of stuff is already covered decently unofficially in the versus thread community of this forum, we'd just need to actually make some proper standards if anything.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

TBH such a note would be better in the Hax page, beyond that I extremely agree.

Hm, I'm not sure if the hax page works, since it seems focused on stuff that counts as instant wincons and such. Layering can apply to virtually any abilities, not just those encompassed by 'hax'. Maybe I should adjust my language to make that discrepancy more clear?

Hax potency is not a verifiable metric. There's no universal system between verses. We have no way of portraying a standardised potency that we can use between all profiles.

What are you talking about? This is about layers and smurfiness, two things we do in fact use between all profiles. We can't argue that a character with 3 layers of mindhax resistance could resist 5 layers of mindhax, just because they're from different verses. Same goes for dimensionality; A character with low 1-C resistance can't resist 1-A hax, the verses in question are irrelevant.

Layers and smurfiness are in fact a "universal system" for measuring hax potency, I barely even touch VS threads and I see both of those brought up as arguments constantly.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, ability potency on this regard really only applies to hax as far I know, I don't hear stuff like "layered water manipulation", for example.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, ability potency on this regard really only applies to hax as far I know, I don't hear stuff like "layered water manipulation", for example.

Idk, something like poison manipulation can technically be layered. I think a good baseline to use for what can and can't be layered is what can and can't be resisted, if that makes sense. Like fire manipulation can be layered because characters can have resistance to it, but weather manipulation can't be layered because resisting it is just... not a thing.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I did the same thing a few months ago Sandbox is incomplete btw, so yes, I agree

 

[Bobsican]

Eh, I suppose that's fair, even I know a verse that kinda resists weather manip.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

It's not so cut and dry. Mechanics differ between verses and it's better to explain how a verse's mechanics affect the potency of their hax rather than simply using an objective system of measurement.

Just because you're of a higher dimensionality it does not mean you perfectly resist the hax of lower dimensional characters. You're putting dimensionality and potency on this pedestal that is highly subjective between verses.

As an example, mindhax can have layers of defined potency, yes. However simply resisting your mind being controlled does not prevent your mind from being read in every case. No amount of layers would help you in this case and simply listing "Mind Manipulation resistance 100 layers" is disingenuous to the specific circumstances of such a resistance.

 

[Bobsican]

The hax page already mentions to have in mind how an ability and a resistance work to correlate their potential effectiveness between each other, because of that it's already encouraged as is to explain the ability itself to begin with beyond labeling it as X manip.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

The hax page already mentions to have in mind how an ability and a resistance work to correlate their potential effectiveness between each other, because of that it's already encouraged as is to explain the ability itself to begin with beyond labeling it as X manip.

Yes and that's what the Notable Techniques and Abilities section is for. We don't need another system of justification to add on to our profiles. Simply making users aware that hax potency exists and abilities are not linearly scaled is sufficient. To that effect a simple explanation on a rule page should be fine but I'm entirely against a concrete system of measurement.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It's not so cut and dry. Mechanics differ between verses and it's better to explain how a verse's mechanics affect the potency of their hax rather than simply using an objective system of measurement.

Ovens I don't think you've argued in a VS thread before if you think this is the case. I have seen numerous arguments break out specifically because of people comparing the hax layering and smurf hax of two verses. Preventing people from more clearly listing the potency of those hax - even if just in the context of their own universe - won't stop people from trying to compare them anyways.

Also it bears repeating that this isn't trying to introduce the concept of layers or smurf hax; Just adding them to profiles in such a way that they're more easily accessible.

Just because you're of a higher dimensionality it does not mean you perfectly resist the hax of lower dimensional characters. You're putting dimensionality and potency on this pedestal that is highly subjective between verses.

As an example, mindhax can have layers of defined potency, yes. However simply resisting your mind being controlled does not prevent your mind from being read in every case. No amount of layers would help you in this case and simply listing "Mind Manipulation resistance 100 layers" is disingenuous to the specific circumstances of such a resistance.

This problem already exists though. Whether or not we list resistance layers, the hypothetical issue you brought up would still happen. A character with an undefined number of layers of resistance to mind control is just as susceptible to mind reading as a character with 100 layers of resistance to mind control. But in the case of actual mind control, we can measure how the character with 100 layers would respond far more accurately than a character with an undefined number of layers.

So your argument here boils down to "it won't be applicable 100% of the time" which like, yeah, I know. But why does that mean we shouldn't index it?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Notable Techniques and Abilities sections are intimidating lol

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually, can you please give me one example of a verse where their hax mechanics are so unique that we wouldn't be able to apply layers/dimensions to them?

Hell, even going back to Anos for a second, the verse's mechanics and how they affect hax are explicitly why his hax are treated as so "layered" here. Why are we treating in-verse mechanics and layers/smurf hax as incompatible when they frequently go hand in hand?

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

Completely agree with Mad_Dog; this would make so many profiles easier to navigate and find matches that don't turn out to be stomps because information on the profile is missing and was relegated to a cosmology blog.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Listing "dimensionality" is a terrible idea. The Wiki doesn't center around dimensions anymore for higher tiers. This would just be confusing and backwards.

I don't disagree with listing hax potency in some way. But I don't think there should be a solid model for how to implement it. It's too variable.

 

[Dereck03]

Hell, even going back to Anos for a second, the verse's mechanics and how they affect hax are explicitly why his hax are treated as so "layered" here. Why are we treating in-verse mechanics and layers/smurf hax as incompatible when they frequently go hand in hand?

I always find it strange how layers in X verse are treated against layers in another verse... In the case of Anos we have an explicit difference between layers of practically uncountably/innumerably higher possible infinite dimensional difference, Heck we even have layers between layers, and yet it treats 1 layers of Maou to any random Layer of X verse that doesn't have the necessary difference by just being stronger....

I also saw that you used Anos as an example, in Null's blog it specifies the difference of layers in sections, it repeats a lot the 99 layers and haxes scale to cosmology, in Venuz's profile it makes reference to the 99 layers. You just have to read.

Regarding what you're proposing? Well, I have no opinion.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Yeah this is just like, unnecessary bloating for profiles tbh

You don't need to have the dimensionality or layers of every ability spelled out on the profile for you. You have the ability to read the justifications and see the potency, or click a link or two and find out, or just ask in threads, etc.

It's the same way not every page links to the exact calc used for AP, sometimes it just scales to another person and you gotta click around or just ask. It's quite simple to do so, so not every page for a given verse just says their AP value in brackets or something, in the same way, we don't need to have every ability say it's potency in brackets, read justifications, click links, etc, its very easy.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I don't feel it's bloating.

The number of arguments that stretch on and on for multiple pages that are just talking about how layered and smurfed some hax is ridiculous. And it's the Verse Supporters who have to go into each match and explain the layers and their potency since a lot of versus simply don't have that stuff listed.

As easy as it "Sounds" to find stuff like layers and potency the number of times this comes up as an issue shows that it's not.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Listing "dimensionality" is a terrible idea. The Wiki doesn't center around dimensions anymore for higher tiers. This would just be confusing and backwards.

I don't disagree with listing hax potency in some way. But I don't think there should be a solid model for how to implement it. It's too variable.

I'm pretty sure we already do that, we have whole threads dedicated to listing the strongest smurfs/non-smurfs, and I've seen a lot of VS threads end up as stomps because someone has higher-dimensional hax. Here's one example. Hell, literally less than 2 weeks ago this was posted, it really seems like dimensionality and hax are still very, very important.

Maybe "dimensionality" is the wrong word. But if this helps clear things up, I'm talking about hax that are of a low 1-C/1-A/etc potency, even if "dimensionality" isn't the right term to use.

I always find it strange how layers in X verse are treated against layers in another verse... In the case of Anos we have an explicit difference between layers of practically uncountably/innumerably higher possible infinite dimensional difference, Heck we even have layers between layers, and yet it treats 1 layers of Maou to any random Layer of X verse that doesn't have the necessary difference by just being stronger....

I mean sure, you could argue that that's wrong or whatever. But this thread doesn't change that, it'd just list what's already been accepted.

I also saw that you used Anos as an example, in Null's blog it specifies the difference of layers in sections, it repeats a lot the 99 layers and haxes scale to cosmology, in Venuz's profile it makes reference to the 99 layers. You just have to read.

My point is the restricting it to a blog is wrong and bad. Imagine if we took any other measurable statistic and went "yeah it's not on the profile just read the blog/ask a supporter", it'd sound pretty ******* stupid right?

Also yes I read the profile but it only mentions the layers in the AP description, nothing I read implied 99+ layers of hax.

Yeah this is just like, unnecessary bloating for profiles tbh

You don't need to have the dimensionality or layers of every ability spelled out on the profile for you. You have the ability to read the justifications and see the potency, or click a link or two and find out, or just ask in threads, etc.

It's the same way not every page links to the exact calc used for AP, sometimes it just scales to another person and you gotta click around or just ask. It's quite simple to do so, so not every page for a given verse just says their AP value in brackets or something, in the same way, we don't need to have every ability say it's potency in brackets, read justifications, click links, etc, its very easy.

As a supporter of a verse where hax layers are very explicitly not demonstrated on the profiles, this is an awful alternative. Youkai in Touhou have 4-5 layers of illusion resistance, but that layering is impossible to determine from the profiles as they are now.

I mean that's one of the main things people hate about VSBW, having to dig through dozens of profiles just to make sense of any sort of scaling chain, hax included. And that's assuming the profiles even list hax scaling chains, which they often don't. So yeah while we can technically go "just do more research", it is very lazy and ultimately is one of the reasons people dislike using the site. Hell, I dislike using the site for this exact reason.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don't feel it's bloating.

The number of arguments that stretch on and on for multiple pages that are just talking about how layered and smurfed some hax is ridiculous. And it's the Verse Supporters who have to go into each match and explain the layers and their potency since a lot of versus simply don't have that stuff listed.

As easy as it "Sounds" to find stuff like layers and potency the number of times this comes up as an issue shows that it's not.

Yes, ultimately people are more likely to go by what they see on the profiles alone when making a match, often ignoring other factors from blogs or scaling from other profiles. The goal here is to cut down on the amount of unnecessary digging people need to do to find layers and degrees of smurfiness.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Yes, ultimately people are more likely to go by what they see on the profiles alone when making a match, often ignoring other factors from blogs or scaling from other profiles. The goal here is to cut down on the amount of unnecessary digging people need to do to find layers and degrees of smurfiness.

And that's not to mention that the necessary blog posts may not even be listed on the profiles themself and even if one finds the blog post we assume people know nothing about the first so they won't know what they should be looking for.

It may be a little extra on the profile but at the same time, no profile should not explain such crucial information to the point you need to wait for one specific person to confirm layers and potency.

 

[Dereck03]

nothing I read implied 99+ layers of hax.

Spoiler

The overall power, meaning attack potency, durability and speed, as well as the strength of laws and concepts from a deeper universe is at least innumerably greater than that of a shallower universe. The difference between layers is compared to the difference between dimensions, but it is not stated that deeper layers are higher dimensions.