Request for Indexing Hax Layering/Smurf Hax on Profiles

[azontr]

Spoiler

The overall power, meaning attack potency, durability and speed, as well as the strength of laws and concepts from a deeper universe is at least innumerably greater than that of a shallower universe. The difference between layers is compared to the difference between dimensions, but it is not stated that deeper layers are higher dimensions.

Bro nobody gives a shit about Anos' justifications, if you have no opinion on the thread leave.

 

[ÆONS]

Following the thread for now, I need some time to think before making comments on the matter.

 

[Dereck03]

Bro nobody gives a shit about Anos' justifications, if you have no opinion on the thread leave.

Huh you again? Anyway, dude tone down, idc about how much you hate anos but she's using him as example of the problem and I'm clarifying the possible misunderstandings, keep the hate for you, it stinks.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Bro nobody gives a shit about Anos' justifications, if you have no opinion on the thread leave.

There is really no need to be so hostile.

But this does prove a point that bit of information is located in the middle of the Cosmology Blog and nowhere on Anos's actual profile.

 

[Dereck03]

But this does prove a point that bit of information is located in the middle of the Cosmology Blog and nowhere on Anos's actual profile.

Indeed, I may need to work on that or discuss it with null to try to elaborate more.

 

[azontr]

Huh you again? Anyway, dude idc about how much you hate anos but she's using him as example of the problem and I'm clarifying the possible misunderstandings,

I don't even know you, nor does my opinion on Anos matter in this situation.

You have no opinion on the threads proposal so your clarification is unnecessary, your point is incorrect to begin with. The point isn't about the scaling for Anos' layering being accurate, it is that the blog that justifies it is not indexed on his page and it should be, that is the problem, not the layers themselves.

 

[Vietthai96]

This is just bloating and redundant at the highest level, hax layers is just the bullshittery we created for the sole purpose of vs match, like Sir Oven said, it is a universal truth either and it is too subjective, what stop peoples from saying that, layers is not exist, hax that be overpowered by another hax is just its weakness???. Also what stop peoples from, again misleading others by putting fake layer information on profile??, which leading to a situation where in order to "accurately" indexing everyone need to make CRT just for hax layers???. Which again leading back the my previous points, is where peoples going on circle with either it is hax potency, or hax weakness

So i fully disagree with this thread, people should care about making profile accurate, rather than trying to put more vs match terminology on it

 

[azontr]

This is just bloating and redundant at the highest level, hax layers is just the bullshittery we created for the sole purpose of vs match, like Sir Oven said, it is a universal truth either and it is too subjective, what stop peoples from saying that, layers is not exist, hax that be overpowered by another hax is just its weakness???. Also what stop peoples from, again misleading others by putting fake layer information on profile??, which leading to a situation where in order to "accurately" indexing everyone need to make CRT just for hax layers???. Which again leading back the my previous points, is where peoples going on circle with either it is hax potency, or hax weakness

So i fully disagree with this thread, people should care about making profile accurate, rather than trying to put more vs match terminology on it

If someone puts inaccurate or fake information on a profile then it's the people's job to fix it via CRT, not to get rid of the system all-together. If you find making a CRT for hax layers an issue then that's your issue for being to lazy to make a revision for inaccurate info.

And who gives a **** if someone says layered hax doesn't exist? Lol, it clearly does on this wiki and if someone wants to contest the concept then they are free to do so, and if they think it's a weakness of the ability and not a layer then they can still make a CRT for it like we do with every other existing statistic on the site.

 

[Livinmeme]

This is just bloating and redundant at the highest level, hax layers is just the bullshittery we created for the sole purpose of vs match, like Sir Oven said, it is a universal truth either and it is too subjective, what stop peoples from saying that, layers is not exist, hax that be overpowered by another hax is just its weakness???. Also what stop peoples from, again misleading others by putting fake layer information on profile??, which leading to a situation where in order to "accurately" indexing everyone need to make CRT just for hax layers???. Which again leading back the my previous points, is where peoples going on circle with either it is hax potency, or hax weakness

So i fully disagree with this thread, people should care about making profile accurate, rather than trying to put more vs match terminology on it

You know that layers exist based on the series rigth?

 

[Vietthai96]

You know that layers exist based on the series rigth?

There is no such a thing as layered hax, just us a bunch of vs match and power scaler created for the sole purpose of doing match, some can say it is layer, other can say it is hax weakness, it is not universal truth, just a thing we fabricated

 

[azontr]

There is no such a thing as layered hax, just us a bunch of vs match and power scaler created for the sole purpose of doing match, some can say it is layer, other can say it is hax weakness, it is not universal truth, just a thing we fabricated

Bro w h a t are you even talking about.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

There is no such a thing as layered hax, just us a bunch of vs match and power scaler created for the sole purpose of doing match, some can say it is layer, other can say it is hax weakness, it is not universal truth, just a thing we fabricated

What? So many verses would beg to differ.

 

[Vietthai96]

What? So many verses would beg to differ.

This is what happend to your mind when you start thinking vsbattle terminology is something that objectively right

 

[azontr]

This is what happend to your mind when you start thinking vsbattle terminology is something that objectively right

Dude what tf are you even talking about right now. Layers are a perfectly valid indexing term outside of Verses Debating. Is determining the potency of an ability not indexable now?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Some verses definitely have mechanics where "layers" (whatever you call it, doesn't matter) are clearly established. You are just objectively incorrect.

 

[Vietthai96]

Dude what tf are you even talking about right now. Layers are a perfectly valid indexing term outside of Verses Debating. Is determining the potency of an ability not indexable now?

Determining ability potency, in what??. Layers or hax weakness, which a subjective term, you say it is layered hax, i can say otherwise. Anyway, back the matter, how to index???, slap some number on the profile, which again cam be subjective.

Some verses definitely have mechanics where "layers" (whatever you call it, doesn't matter) are clearly established. You are just objectively incorrect.

Not denying some verse establish some kind of mechanic, but again if said verse establish it, we can safely indexing on profile, like Yogiri's Resistance Negation if i read his profile correctly. However, with verse that not establish anything, how to indexing???. Like i said before people could say this weakness that weakness, not layers, since this term is very subjective

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I think what he means is that there's no proper way to measure layering objectively. Layers are not universal. Saying "layer" means absolutely nothing because what that means between verses is not the same.

A > B for one verse is not the same as A > B for another. It's just not that simple.

 

[azontr]

Determining ability potency, in what??. Layers or hax weakness, which a subjective term, you say it is layered hax, i can say otherwise. Anyway, back the matter, how to index???, slap some number on the profile, which again cam be subjective.

Your not making an actual point. Layers are, objectively, a thing, and in a specific scenario where you feel that there is no layer difference and simply a weakness of a specific hax, or something entirely different, you are completely free to reevaluate the accuracy of the scaling in a Content Revision. Up to you.

I think what he means is that there's no proper way to measure layering objectively. Layers are not universal. Saying "layer" means absolutely nothing because what that means between verses is not the same.

A > B for one verse is not the same as A > B for another. It's just not that simple.

I completely agree with this, which is why we take it case by case. Potency of abilities is indeed displayed differently between verses and we should use the system displayed, if any at all, to determine if an ability has a higher than baseline potency, right? Why discard the entire system when we can just do what we already do.

Layers are a thing, yes, but as you've said they are not displayed the same between series. I agree, and most people do, which is why we need to evaluate as best we can.

 

[azontr]

Like, I agree that Layers are displayed differently throughout verses, but instead of discarding the entire concept and tacking it up to "just a Verses Thread thing" we should evaluate if there's even a system like that and judge accordingly, based on the rules of the verse, and the showings of the verse. It's what we do already, I think, I don't see why we'd stop taking it case-by-case.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Determining ability potency, in what??. Layers or hax weakness, which a subjective term, you say it is layered hax, i can say otherwise. Anyway, back the matter, how to index???, slap some number on the profile, which again cam be subjective.


Not denying some verse establish some kind of mechanic, but again if said verse establish it, we can safely indexing on profile, like Yogiri's Resistance Negation if i read his profile correctly. However, with verse that not establish anything, how to indexing???. Like i said before people could say this weakness that weakness, not layers, since this term is very subjective

I think what he means is that there's no proper way to measure layering objectively. Layers are not universal. Saying "layer" means absolutely nothing because what that means between verses is not the same.

"Layered hax" is literally just [this ability bypasses resistance of someone who resists an ability that bypassed resistance] and so on. Or at least, a stronger hax that the average resistance wouldn't deal with. There is no secret. Never saw anyone using this term differently (and if they did it's definitely not the norm). The point is, it's definitely quantifiable

A > B for one verse is not the same as A > B for another. It's just not that simple.

"Bypassing resistances" and "bypassing resistances of people who resist abilities that bypass resistances" is a phenomenon that you can safely apply to all verses.

 

[Vietthai96]

Can we even evaluated it case-by-case accurately with verse that not establish it?? Without people going back and forth with their own personal opinion?. We can evaluate abilities because all verse establish them to an extend, but layer???. No, because layer, different from abilities, could be a thing objectively in a verse, but not in the others

"Layered hax" is literally just [this ability bypasses resistance of someone who resists an ability that bypassed resistance] and so on. Or at least, a stronger hax that the average resistance wouldn't deal with. There is no secret. Never saw anyone using this term differently (and if they did it's definitely not the norm). The point is, it's definitely quantifiable

"Bypassing resistances" and "bypassing resistances of people who resist abilities that bypass resistances" is a phenomenon that you can safely apply to all verses.

What about i saying that:
1. A's hax bypass B's resistance is just B's resistance weakness that can't defend against A's hax
2. A resist B's hax is just B's hax weakness that can't hax stronger opponent like A or something else??

That the problem, without the verse establish anything, you can interpret thing in all kind of direction you want

 

[azontr]

Can we even evaluated it case-by-case accurately with verse that not establish it?? Without people going back and forth with their own personal opinion?. We can evaluate abilities because all verse establish them to an extend, but layer???. No, because layer, different from abilities, could be a thing objectively in a verse, but not in the others

Yes, we can legit do that. If the verse doesn't have abilities that bypass resistances and people who resist them and ad infinitum, then they don't have layers, and that's that. Like we're not trying to add layers to verses or characters that don't have layers. We're evaluating strictly the one's that do and need to be indexed.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

What about i saying that:
1. A's hax bypass B's resistance is just B's resistance weakness that can't defend against A's hax
2. A resist B's hax is just B's hax weakness that can't hax stronger opponent like A or something else??

You'd need to prove that or the verse would have to say it's a weakness. Occam's Razor is against you on that one.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

High 1-A potency and 3 bajillion layers of based

 

[Duedate8898]

I actually think this would be a good idea.

While implementation would definitely need some work, considering that layers of hax/resistance is something that is used within the community, especially the debate side, it would only make sense to help the average user at least be able to gauge this without being forced to ask a supporter or dive through multiple pages. Especially when we have threads like this one, which are attempting to create clear lines of scaling for such things as Hax or resistances to them.

I have to think about how it might be best to implement this into profiles un-intrusively.

 

[ÆONS]

After listening in this thread and taking my time I mostly agree with Fuji's suggestions. However, I feel that listing dimensionality for certain types of manipulation or P&As would be a bit problematic since having higher-dimensional abilities or powers doesn't always grant you a higher tier or inherent superiority to lower-dimensional beings. I feel that, especially in the case of abilities that affect things at a genuinely Tier 1 level, it would be better to just list their tier.

So it would be like: Fate Manipulation (5 layers, Low 1-C, likely 1-C: [insert justification]) rather than Fate Manipulation (5 layers, 5-D, likely 7-D: [insert justification]). However, in specific cases beyond this, I don't have much ideas.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

This is a standardisation nightmare. Adding dimensionality or layered hax to literally every listed power is bloating.

If you do add layering to Anos, you'd have to do it to Joker or Batman too. Do you understand how redundant that is for a majority of the wiki?

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, we don't need to list it to every single thing, by default a power isn't higher-d than the respective character's tier nor has layers, it's as simple as adding literally nothing for such cases.

 

[azontr]

This is a standardisation nightmare. Adding dimensionality or layered hax to literally every listed power is bloating.

If you do add layering to Anos, you'd have to do it to Joker or Batman too. Do you understand how redundant that is for a majority of the wiki?

You say redundant, I say it saves time from having to sit through blogs or go through messages walls to find something out that can be logically just put on the actual page like it's supposed to. And you're acting like we're adding this to every ability when we'd only do so with specific abilities that have higher-d or layered power in comparison to the user, so I dunno what you're bitching about dude.

 

[ÆONS]

This is a standardisation nightmare. Adding dimensionality or layered hax to literally every listed power is bloating.

If you do add layering to Anos, you'd have to do it to Joker or Batman too. Do you understand how redundant that is for a majority of the wiki?

I get what you are saying, but as Mokou brought up, many, if not most, verses don't do layered hax like Maou Gakuin, One Piece or Low Dimensional Game and probably should only be done when knowledgeable members of said verse believe it is definitely necessary.

 

[Vietthai96]

If the verse doesn't have abilities that bypass resistances and people who resist them and ad infinitum, then they don't have layers, and that's that

Sigh.......problem is, the verse don't establish them, for example: B resist A's hax, however C can hax B. How do you evaluate this when the verse say nothing???. You say C hax is layered, sure you are not wrong, however i say A can't hax B is A weakness and B cam't resist C is B weakness, i also not wrong either, why, because verse don't establish it

You'd need to prove that or the verse would have to say it's a weakness. Occam's Razor is against you on that one.

I know, and i appreciate the reply, however you do know that Occam's Razor do not always solve things don't you??

 

[azontr]

Sigh.......problem is, the verse don't establish them, for example: B resist A's hax, however C can hax B. How do you evaluate this when the verse say nothing???. You say C hax is layered, sure you are not wrong, however i say A can't hax B is A weakness and B cam't resist C is B weakness, i also not wrong either, why, because verse don't establish it

You don't evaluate it. If the verse does not have layers then we, logically, wouldn't index something that isn't spoken on or even exists, yeah?

And I mean I can definitely say your wrong then if you have literally 0 basis to assume the ability has a weakness that would allow it to be bypassed. That is, objectively, a flimsy argument that can be torn apart easily. You can't just say "oh it's a weakness" if that isn't strictly shown, in the case of layers. You'd have to prove it as such or else you'd be incorrect, while I'd be correct in using the standard assumption that the hax, is, instead, not weak, simply layered or a higher potency than another.

You don't have to be a contrarian all the time.

 

[Duedate8898]

This is a standardisation nightmare. Adding dimensionality or layered hax to literally every listed power is bloating.

If you do add layering to Anos, you'd have to do it to Joker or Batman too. Do you understand how redundant that is for a majority of the wiki?

I think you're really making a mountain out of mole hill here. The assumption naturally is that everything works at a baseline level unless otherwise specified. We wouldn't list that out, but in the case of other instances, it would be helpful. We already do it to an extent with listing 1-B or whatever with Hax or certain techinques. I don't see why we can't be a bit more in depth on the profiles.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

I know, and i appreciate the reply, however you do know that Occam's Razor do not always solve things don't you??

Ye? Fortunately it quite does here.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Again, why can't any of this be listed under Notable Techniques and Abilities? Why is it so prudent that we show how many layers of hax a characters has when it can just be simply explained that it's not baseline in the proper section? Charles Xavier is an Omega level Mutant. If we assume Charles is above the likes of some random Marvel guy who can use mindhax, how do differentiate the potency? Could he mindhax Cad Bane, who resisted the mindhax of 3 Jedi Masters? How do we measure Jedi mindhax in comparison to Mutant mindhax?

Layers are not standard. We need to stop assuming everything can be dumbed down like this.

 

[Duedate8898]

Again, why can't any of this be listed under Notable Techniques and Abilities? Why is it so prudent that we show how many layers of hax a characters has when it can just be simply explained that it's not baseline in the proper section? Charles Xavier is an Omega level Mutant. If we assume Charles is above the likes of some random Marvel guy who can use mindhax, how do differentiate the potency? Could he mindhax Cad Bane, who resisted the mindhax of 3 Jedi Masters? How do we measure Jedi mindhax in comparison to Mutant mindhax?

Layers are not standard. We need to stop assuming everything can be dumbed down like this.

Because we do treat them as a standard. I don't know why this seems like such a foreign idea to you, especially since we've had at least two staff threads over the topic of hax layers and resistances in the past. We as a community clearly believe this to be a thing, and we do attempt to measure it. And if we're going to do both, we might as well also make it digestible and easy to access for those who interact with us.

I don't disagree this can't be listed in Notable Techniques and Abilities, but people clearly don't do that. And if people aren't doing it and we also as a community utilize the logic of layers in hax and resistances, then the establishing of a precedent to communicate this more effectively on profiles seems pertinent. All this thread is really asking for at the end of the day, is for our profiles to reflect information our user-base constantly use and keep track of.

 

[ÆONS]

Layers are not standard. We need to stop assuming everything can be dumbed down like this.

Layered hax/abilities have already become standard, though. More and more people are scaling characters based off of layered Powers and Abilities with newer verses such as Low Dimensional Game using said standard. Layered and higher-tier abilities have also become a trend in many vs matches for months, if not for years with Top 5 Strongest characters for each tier having scaled smurf characters.

 

[azontr]

Again, why can't any of this be listed under Notable Techniques and Abilities? Why is it so prudent that we show how many layers of hax a characters has when it can just be simply explained that it's not baseline in the proper section? Charles Xavier is an Omega level Mutant. If we assume Charles is above the likes of some random Marvel guy who can use mindhax, how do differentiate the potency? Could he mindhax Cad Bane, who resisted the mindhax of 3 Jedi Masters? How do we measure Jedi mindhax in comparison to Mutant mindhax?

Layers are not standard. We need to stop assuming everything can be dumbed down like this.

I mean... poor example? Either that or I don't understand the example as it seems your saying. I'd assume in this case we'd measure if there's any established metric of power between the characters that can be used to determine the potency of abilities. You mentioned a "level" of mutants so if there's some sort of level-metric, if possible, that'd be a way to scale. But this depends on whether on how the system of mutant levels work, or if Charles and this "random Marvel guy", as you say, have ever compared or been put into a situation where they could measure the potency of their mind hax against one another.

Like really this example is completely lacking in anything that'd support your argument. Case-by-case. We take what we know and utilize it to make judgements, we don't just throw contextless examples out of our ass.

 

[The_Impress]

Lowkey I kinda wanna say no to this because of the sheer amount of work required to maintain it, especially for my verses.

 

[azontr]

Lowkey I kinda wanna say no to this because of the sheer amount of work required to maintain it, especially for my verses.

I mean it wouldn't be a mandatory standard. That would be unrealistic to properly maintain.