Request for Indexing Hax Layering/Smurf Hax on Profiles

[The_Impress]

I mean it wouldn't be a mandatory standard. That would be unrealistic to properly maintain.

I mean if it's not mandatory just... do it on your files then, no need for a thread lol.

 

[Duedate8898]

I mean if it's not mandatory just... do it on your files then, no need for a thread lol.

I think this might be good to do like we did with references, cause the main goal is to get this as the standard I think

 

[azontr]

I feel like this should be less of a standard and more of a strong suggestion like references used to be when they weren't mandatory tbh.

 

[The_Impress]

I mean again if you want it as a standard then,

Lowkey I kinda wanna say no to this because of the sheer amount of work required to maintain it, especially for my verses.

 

[The_Impress]

I feel like this should be less of a standard and more of a strong suggestion like references used to be when they weren't mandatory tbh.

References were still standard lol, we just gave a grace window for people to apply them to files movong forward.

 

[azontr]

References were still standard lol, we just gave a grace window for people to apply them to files movong forward.

Wasn't that only a recently applied thing? 99% sure references never used to be a mandatory thing until recently. Actually, there's a whole thread telling people that their now mandatory lol.

 

[The_Impress]

Wasn't that only a recently applied thing? 99% sure references never used to be a mandatory thing until recently. Actually, there's a whole thread telling people that their now mandatory lol.

No lol, check the original thread, plan was always "we'll eventually just make references mandatory"

Lowkey I kinda wanna say no to this because of the sheer amount of work required to maintain it, especially for my verses.

But yeah to expand on this, my verse is Marvel, stats are constantly in a flux because they keep adding like 50 new issues every month made by different writers with their own interpretation of the characters' power levels.

We're struggling to keep 5 fields maintained as is, I'm genuinely gonna ape if in addition to that I'll have to check dimensionality for every cosmic or X-Men fucko's resists and hax, and the 9 quadrillion revisions it'll have because suddenly when something has a number on it within the file wankers try their damndest wreck it.

DC and SCP also suffer the same shit, these are some of the biggest verses on site, if there is an indexing requirement exclusively they don't have then it'll look wacky.

So yeah if it's a standard or a standard-to-be I'll be against it, if it's a suggestion there shouldn't be a thread.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Remind me to never try to go to bed early again lol

I'm not gonna bother with the debate over whether or not layered/smurf hax are a thing, they 100% are and I've seen dozens of debates over those two things, they're ******* inescapable on this site.

Anyways, I feel the need to repost my suggested note at the beginning of this thread:

"While not strictly required, it is advisable to index the potency of a character's abilities in their P&A section when creating or editing a profile. This can include the ability to overpower the resistances of characters who would ordinarily resist certain abilities (also known as 'hax layering'; Not to be confused with Resistance Negation), or whether or not the potency of an ability corresponds to that of a higher dimension (also known as 'smurf hax')."

Basically, while it is an important statistic we should encourage people to index wherever possible, trying to make everyone retroactively apply it to countless profiles would be idiotic. Similarly, making it a requirement (assuming a character even has layered/smurf hax to index ofc) is something we wouldn't realistically be able to do until much later down the line when most profiles already have it and people are used to putting it on profiles.

The issue with it being treated as something that shouldn't be directly encouraged or mentioned in any official capacity is that, while individual people can do it (and they have, as @LIFE_OF_KING showed above), that does literally nothing in terms in encouraging people to index it.

But yeah to expand on this, my verse is Marvel, stats are constantly in a flux because they keep adding like 50 new issues every month made by different writers with their own interpretation of the characters' power levels.

We're struggling to keep 5 fields maintained as is, I'm genuinely gonna ape if in addition to that I'll have to check dimensionality for every cosmic or X-Men fucko's resists and hax, and the 9 quadrillion revisions it'll have because suddenly when something has a number on it within the file wankers try their damndest wreck it.

DC and SCP also suffer the same shit, these are some of the biggest verses on site, if there is an indexing requirement exclusively they don't have then it'll look wacky.

So yeah if it's a standard or a standard-to-be I'll be against it, if it's a suggestion there shouldn't be a thread.

How many of those files even have smurf hax in any capacity though? And how many of them even have layers?

Also even if the worst case happens and Marvle/DC/whatever doesn't list layers or smurf hax... So what? This would still be a massive benefit to virtually every other verse, and saying "this is too much work for 2-3 verses so dozens of other verses have to suffer because of it" feels a little biased if I'm being honest.

 

[Confluctor]

How many of those files even have smurf hax in any capacity though? And how many of them even have layers

A lot. Magicians and telepaths, for starter. Some low 1c shenanigans. And there is also smurf absorption and sometimes RW, among a number of other Hax.

All in all, I don't think this need to be made a mandatory standard, but merely a recommended one. If someone doesn't want to, that's fine. But if someone wants to, that's also fine. I think it's virtually impossible to do so for most of my verses, but I know that it's easier to do for more streamlined verses like mangas. So, if you lot want to add it, that's fine. That's good.

 

[azontr]

All in all, I don't think this need to be made a mandatory standard, but merely a recommended one. If someone doesn't want to, that's fine. But if someone wants to, that's also fine. I think it's virtually impossible to do so for most of my verses, but I know that it's easier to do for more streamlined verses like mangas. So, if you lot want to add it, that's fine. That's good.

This is literally what I suggested bro.

 

[Confluctor]

Get Zuckerberg'd

too long of a thread, didn't read it all

 

[azontr]

1984.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I mean yeah, I think making it mandatory right out of the gate is a bad move. If we ever reach a state where people are used to adding it to profiles and most profiles have them already, we can talk about making it a rule, but right now I think it's better to make it as encouraged as possible without making it a requirement.

 

[Confluctor]

The way it stands, I don't think it should ever be made mandatory. For some verses, it's a nightmare to get it right - and always will be. And some people probably just doesn't want to list on the files they make.

 

[The_Impress]

It shouldn't be recommended in any official capacity, since that bluntly gives the expectancy pages need to have shit like it, and not having it is a negative in some form.

is would still be a massive benefit to virtually every other verse, and saying "this is too much work for 2-3 verses so dozens of other verses have to suffer because of it" feels a little biased if I'm being honest.

"If a third of the page candidates don't even list the officially recommended standard because it is literally impossible to maintain what is the problem?"

If you just null the context of a majority of pages belong to those verses just not being able to have this shit then yeah it does sound like bias, Fuji, thankfully we have context to suggest otherwise and demonstrate within relevant context the afflicted characters will still mostly not have the justifications you demand.

If you want there to be justification for these "dozens of verses", just add them in, it's only justification expansion and it doesn't need an official ruling to make verses that literally can't do it look bad.

Thread's either unnecessary or inconsiderate, pick your poison.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It shouldn't be recommended in any official capacity, since that bluntly gives the expectancy pages need to have shit like it, and not having it is a negative in some form.

"If a third of the page candidates don't even list the officially recommended standard because it is literally impossible to maintain what is the problem?"

If you just null the context of a majority of pages belong to those verses just not being able to have this shit then yeah it does sound like bias, Fuji, thankfully we have context to suggest otherwise and demonstrate within relevant context the afflicted characters will still mostly not have the justifications you demand.

If you want there to be justification for these "dozens of verses", just add them in, it's only justification expansion and it doesn't need an official ruling to make verses that literally can't do it look bad.

Thread's either unnecessary or inconsiderate, pick your poison.

Impress are you honest to god suggesting that Marvel and DC make up one third of all layered or smurf hax on the wiki

I think I found the real issue here and it's that you're vastly overestimating the presence your own verses have in this category. Saying that it's unsustainable for Marvel and DC (which I don't necessarily disagree with) so we shouldn't make it standard for other verses is like a teacher saying that because one kid got in trouble the entire class gets punished, or something like that. I honestly think it sets a bad precedent to judge wiki revisions on the basis of "okay, but what about Marvel and DC?"

Also in regards to "just add them in", we should still have some level of standardization regarding this so people even know where to look for layering/smurf hax on profiles, should someone choose to add them.

 

[Infera28]

I prefer not to add them, but even if we want to add hax layers, the difference between the potency of each layer must be one infinite or one resistance negation because we cannot finitely quantify the amount of each resistance layer, also, the fact that a person really has resistance negation must be proven with many evidence, because we can assume that their ability just became stronger than someone's resistance, or it was a verse mechanic

 

[Antoniofer]

I don't think people has agreed of what a "layer" is supposed to be, like, there's not much ruling regarding them. Currently one treat a layer as straight up invulnerability/immunity, but, what about more conventional resistance? How many layers possesses someone that survived a poisonous gas that would kill most humans in 30 seconds but yet lost consciousness at 2 minutes of expossure? And what would "baseline layer" is supposed to work? Between poisons what is supposed to be the baseline: snake's venom, cianide... platypus' venom? Less talk about supernatural forms of hax, whatnis the baseline for memory manipulation? The affected has no way of recovering lost memories (or detect fake ones) without having resistance, that would mean if it recover memories through therapy or "power of friendship" then the power is considered weak or the character suddenly gains resistance? And what level of resistance?

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Don't get me wrong, I will always believe layered hax is nothing more than a load of tactless BS born from the desire of making verses as "OP" as possible but regardless of personal interpretation the concept itself does exist in several verses and smurfs have been a thing in the Vs community since near the very conception (ofc they weren't called "smurfs").

After reading this CRT and observing the replies as well as the discussion, it's pretty clear (to me at least) that this kinda perpetuates a VSBW cycle of a major CRT/SDT popping up due to a lack of information or citation on the profiles/blogs (sometimes just a harmless misunderstanding) which leads to confusion or even misinformation. The thread usually starts with pushback that denies the issue even exists or is has been blown outta proportion.

If the discussion goes on long enough then it becomes an issue of being it "too much work" or being "too arbitrary" to implement a change (optional or mandatory) plus all sides in the intial thread get exasperated by the seemingly endless back and forth.

To be frank, denying the issue and not wanting a change are pretty interchangeable of when they inevitably come up in a thread tbh.

Eventually if/when a major thread does conclude, the outcome is usually nothing actually changes OR changes are implemented but not without some noticeable bad blood getting spilled.

Regardless of how this thread concludes, people need to remember these type of threads come from a place of genuinely trying to improve the wiki and you can't fault the OP for that.

Overall whatever the conclusion of this thread is, I think most (if not all of us) want more accurate profiles/blogs.

Ofc accuracy in the VS community is quintessentially subjective but that's a can of worms I'm leaving closed just like a century old tin of surströmming.

I've said my peace, I'm outta here.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I have absolutely no bad blood with the OP or any of the people for the revision. I just disagree with the change and because we literally do not have a precedent for this. And whenever we pass things half-baked it tends to have a negative effect on the wiki. Bullet points on profiles is one such effect and I intend to do something about that soon but that's for another thread.

 

[Jinsye]

Impress are you honest to god suggesting that Marvel and DC

This is funny because I am fairly sure that while not 1/3rd, Marvel and DC do make up a very significant portion of smurfs and layered hax users on the wiki. Just by their nature.

Having those two verses ignored would set a pretty bad precedent.

 

[Vietthai96]

Iirc, we already do some smurf hax listing on a number of profiles, layers on the other hand is really hard to gauge

 

[Infera28]

I have no problem with dimensional or infinitely more powerful layers, but normal layers are very vague and often wanked

 

[Vietthai96]

I have no problem with dimensional or infinitely more powerful layers, but normal layers are very vague and often wanked

But again, some verse can have layers but not infinitely stronger, we don't know

 

[Infera28]

But again, some verse can have layers but not infinitely stronger, we don't know

Layers are generally vague. They were made in discord for wanking, but even in discord, everyone gives a different definition for layers, and the true definition of layers is not clear

 

[StekFence]

Cant we just define it as overcoming a resistance through potency? If someone resists fire on their skin and not the mouth, then if I burnt their skin, it could be said I used layered fire hax right? Which I guess is equivalent to jsut, higher temperatures usually.the point is that this denotes a higher potency

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

isn't the layer originally only for Mind, soul, fate, concept, laws and so on

i don't really understand how Poison, radiation, disease, paralysis, etc. gets layers dimensional potency since potency can just range from
having a headache for disease to literally bedridden and rapidly dying.

like what the heck is a 4D poison in logically. like some sort of poison that spans across spacetime? a poison that affects you on another layer of dimension which you do not possess? if its a poison weak poison but is 4D how would that even affect someone who resistant to poison with a much worse effect but isn't dimensionally higher or have more layer?

 

[StekFence]

? a poison that affects you on another layer of dimension which you do not possess?

I’m pretty sure the case is that characters possess a 4th dimension, they simply cannot move across it. Like real life I suppose

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Cant we just define it as overcoming a resistance through potency? If someone resists fire on their skin and not the mouth, then if I burnt their skin, it could be said I used layered fire hax right? Which I guess is equivalent to jsut, higher temperatures usually.the point is that this denotes a higher potency

Yeah, this really isn't that complex. Literally everywhere I go I see "layered hax" applied in the same way; (x) resists an ability, ( y) is able to affect (x) with that ability anyways, ( y) has layered hax. I have never seen an example of layered hax that deviates from that formula, and that sort of layering has every right to be indexed on profiles.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

This really does not have to be as complex as people are making it sound. We have been using the concept of layered hax forever now in VS Battles. We clearly know how to gauge layers, we've been doing it to the point no one has argued against the concept and only against validity.

Applying it officially in some capacity shouldn't suddenly make this some difficult impossible abstract thing to be recommended for profiles to have.

 

[azontr]

I dunno why people keep painting this shit as rocket science. You know what layers are, you know how they work, the formula hasn't suddenly changed.

 

[Livinmeme]

Yeah there is hax layers, man cmon literally some verses uses layers directly (dnd and insta death)

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

It seems odd to me that, despite this being a wiki focused on the indexing on fictional characters and their abilities, there is one subset of abilities we consistently overlook; Potency. There are, of course, two ways to measure potency; Layers and Smurf hax. Yet, nowhere on any profile is there any mention of these concepts. To someone uninitiated with a verse, it may seem as though every ability only has a single layer, or would be ineffective against anyone who has any degree of resistance to those abilities. But often, mentions of layering or smurf hax are either 1. Confined to lengthy cosmology/verse explanation blogs, or 2. Not mentioned at all, and just pieces of information only really accessible to verse supporters. A particularly infamous example of this is Anos' 99+ layers of concept hax; Seems pretty notable, given it makes virtually all matches against him a stomp in his favor, right? Which is why it's weird that nowhere is that layering present on his profile; Instead, it's only mentioned towards the end of the incredibly long Maou Gakuin cosmology page. Consider, then, how this looks to casual visitors to this wiki, who merely want information on a character they like. Should we not list that information on the profile itself, so we don't force visitors to dig through lengthy explanations that they may not even understand? Even for people who frequent the forums this is an issue, as it makes it incredibly difficult to find fair VS matches, since there's no real way to gauge whether or not a character has a way to resist certain wincons, leading to numerous matches that amount to "(x)'s soulhax are more layered/are higher-dimensional than ( y)'s resistance, stomp thread". Listing hax potency on profiles would make situations like that far rarer, and also bypasses the issue of having to do a ******* essay's worth of research just to make a good VS match. And all of that is assuming a verse even has an explanation page explaining hax layering and smurfiness in the first place, which isn't always the case.

Thus, I propose each ability in a character's profile mention the number of layers each ability possesses, as well as the dimensionality of those hax. For example: Mind Manipulation (2 Layers. 5D; [Justification here]). For characters without layers or smurfiness, there wouldn't be any need to change the ability description.

There is, of course, the issue of the amount of work involved. First off, not all verses have layered hax or smurf hax; In fact, very few do, so the amount of work required wouldn't be as large as our page total makes it seem. Secondly, the amount of work isn't even particularly high for some verses; Some, like Umineko, have hax like Truths that already have a clearly defined level of potency, which would be very easy to add to individual profiles. And of course, this wouldn't even need to be a necessary addition; Consider the recent changes to resurrection/immortality, which dictates that the level of regeneration those abilities grant should be specified. There are thousands of users of those powers, and not all of them have their corresponding regen levels indexed. But nobody seems to mind the work involved with that, since the change was objectively for the better and made profiles much more accurate in regards to a character's regenerative capabilities. This is no different. Supporters of different verses can add layering/smurfiness to the profiles as they wish, depending on how important they think it is.

While I'm not sure where this would go, I would recommend writing a suggestion in the wiki rules somewhere that would read somewhat like the following:

"While not strictly required, it is advisable to index the potency of a character's abilities in their P&A section when creating or editing a profile. This can include the ability to overpower the resistances of characters who would ordinarily resist certain abilities (also known as 'hax layering'; Not to be confused with Resistance Negation), or whether or not the potency of an ability corresponds to that of a higher dimension (also known as 'smurf hax')."

I agree with this immensely. Its a problem I've run into very often when it comes to trying to set up matchups or looking into characters. Not knowing something as important as that can lead to not fully understanding their powerset. This is a pretty integral addition imo.

 

[Livinmeme]

Yeah the wiki has a problem of ¨the wiki doesn't give the resources at plain sigth to new users, so they leave the wiki after they realize that they have to read like 20 pages to do things like calcs, vs battling and his funny rules AND tiering overall¨ This would be a pretty huge step to make the wiki more accesible to everyone instead of being accidently gatekeeped because only turbo nerds are activelly searching for those pages rules. Like i could mention how wrong that there isn't a blog to explain the escential for vs battling but that would be just derailing. Anyway agree

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I’m pretty sure the case is that characters possess a 4th dimension, they simply cannot move across it. Like real life I suppose

We assume 4th to be spacetime. Hence the poison that spans across spacetime comment.

Eitherway i agree with exception to making it mandatory with certain hax being indexed with layers such as fate, precog, mind, soul. Etc basically everything metaphysical. But physical things like poison disease etc should just be expanded on how potent the effects of it. Like poison that kills in 2 seconds shouldn't be resisted by someone who resist poison that just make you bedridden or disoriented.

 

[The_Impress]

Impress are you honest to god suggesting that Marvel and DC make up one third of all layered or smurf hax on the wiki

Yeah, I can literally just spam out the layered pages off Marvel alone endlessly

I think I found the real issue here and it's that you're vastly overestimating the presence your own verses have in this category

Fuji you straight up didn't know what even constituted Marvel and DC smurf tier before Confluctor gave a hyper basic estimation, but now you're magically a Marvel and DC expert who knows how many smurfs all of them have and now you have deemed them insufficient to make up a relevant composition.

Or you're just saying stuff to have a semblance of an argument when you literally just said a wordy "no its not" to my assertion. Have a "no it's not" back from me, along with "you have no credibility to make this counter-assertion with this much confidence"

. Saying that it's unsustainable for Marvel and DC (which I don't necessarily disagree with) so we shouldn't make it standard for other verses is like a teacher saying that because one kid got in trouble the entire class gets punished, or something like that. I honestly think it sets a bad precedent to judge wiki revisions on the basis of "okay, but what about Marvel and DC?"

Why, should everything be according to your five verses now? That don't make up a notable composition of the category? This is so blatantly inconsiderate to larger verses you may as well have begun your OP with "**** connected ongoing verse supporters"

Also in regards to "just add them in", we should still have some level of standardization regarding this so people even know where to look for layering/smurf hax on profiles, should someone choose to add them.

But it isn't standard, it can't be standard, so you're arguing null.

This is laughable debating once you actually begin to read the stuff said tbh.

 

[Infera28]

Yeah, this really isn't that complex. Literally everywhere I go I see "layered hax" applied in the same way; (x) resists an ability, ( y) is able to affect (x) with that ability anyways, ( y) has layered hax. I have never seen an example of layered hax that deviates from that formula, and that sort of layering has every right to be indexed on profiles.

I asked several people about layers. Some said that if A can resist the ability of B but cannot resist the same ability from C, this is a layer for C's ability, but some said that this is not a layer and C's ability must have resistance negation and difference between each layer is full immunity or infinite. This is also very vague as it can only mean that the potency of C's ability was greater than A's resistance. So there is really no precise definition for the layers

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah, I can literally just spam out the layered pages off Marvel alone endlessly

Fuji you straight up didn't know what even constituted Marvel and DC smurf tier before Confluctor gave a hyper basic estimation, but now you're magically a Marvel and DC expert who knows how many smurfs all of them have and now you have deemed them insufficient to make up a relevant composition.

There are 637 pages under the Marvel Comics category. And there are 515 DC pages. 1152 in all. Like 3-4% of the wiki. But... That is not including the fact that user blogs (such as calculations), subcategories/verse pages, and characters who would not even qualify for layered/smurf hax make up a very large portion of that total. Taking those pages into account... the number of valid pages that would need editing is more likely around 2%. Now I may not be good at math, but I am fairly certain that that is not one third. And let's be real, the number is gonna be even lower the next time Tllmbrg posts in the profile deletion thread.

I don't need to be an expert on Marvel or DC to tell you that the numbers you're giving me are complete and utter ******* bullshit. 2% of the wiki would not benefit from a revision, so the other 98% can go **** itself I guess. Or to put it another way,

Why, should everything be according to your five verses now? That don't make up a notable composition of the category? This is so blatantly inconsiderate to larger verses you may as well have begun your OP with "**** connected ongoing verse supporters"

Impress I can get at least everyone who has supported this revision to name a verse which this would benefit and I'd probably get a different answer from every single person. I support literally one verse on here and I still know the vast majority of verses I don't even touch would benefit from this.

I mean just from my experience on the site, here's a brief sampling of verses that this would benefit:

-One Piece
-Maou Gakuin
-Pokemon
-Touhou Project
-Star Wars
-Warhammer
-Dragon Ball
-Kingdom Hearts

And hell, some of those verses have pages that are far more popular than any of the Marvel/DC characters you're putting on some pedestal.

But it isn't standard, it can't be standard, so you're arguing null.

Even if we don't make this necessary or even recommended, what happens if we let people index this with no direction on how and where to index it? It'll be ******* chaos and defeat the entire point; You'll have some people list it in the NA/T section, the P&A section, in between AP and P&A, you'll have people index smurf hax as either low 1-C or 5D, and so on. The way these stats are applied absolutely needs standardization.

Regardless of how much we pressure people to index it, we need to make sure people know how to index is so that information is equally accessible between all profiles and isn't just a chaotic ******* mess.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Quick update on that math, took out all the user blogs and categories (which was nearly 300 lol), divided that by the total number of wiki pages, and...

I was surprisingly accurate, despite being gay and thus incapable of doing math. Remember, this still isn't accounting for pages that wouldn't even use smurf hax/layering, pages on the hot list for deletion, and image files (which I forgot to include, RIP). Wanna run that "one third" bullshit by me again?

 

[Vietthai96]

Dragon Ball

Dragon Ball??. Benefit???. Man, i still remember peoples saying Goku resist Hakai is Hakai weakness, not Goku's resistance