Reinhard Van Astrea vs Satoru Gojo (11-8-1)

[PhantomØ4]

Grace still went on though. This is just inconclusive now.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Eh, a Win for me then since i voted incon.

 

[Zabazab]

I was kind of expecting a match like this to be either a stomp or incon by the end, the specifics of ability interaction is just up to individual interpretation too much.

Congratulations on your choice being the result, Fezzih!

 

[Fezzih_007]

I mean, the match still haven't ended, but i doubt someone will come to vote now.

 

[Phoenks]

Why exactly does it matter that Gojo could control the concepts of near and far in his Infinity anyway?

A sword that cleaves through space is still going to ignore the distance.

The sword doesn't actually need to travel through all of that compressed space. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a spatial cut at all. It is severing the space between itself and it's target. So manipulating the near and farness of that space shouldn't even matter.

I really don't think you need some kind of conceptual manipulation to bypass his ability.

Going off what's been accepted, it just looks like Gojo manipulates concepts to create this space.

But that doesn't really change the existence of the space, it's still just an infinite space compressed into a finite area, so I don't see why a spatial cut doesn't work.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Why exactly does it matter that Gojo could control the concepts of near and far in his Infinity anyway?

A sword that cleaves through space is still going to ignore the distance.

The sword doesn't actually need to travel through all of that compressed space. Otherwise, it wouldn't be a spatial cut at all. It is severing the space between itself and it's target. So manipulating the near and farness of that space shouldn't even matter.

I really don't think you need some kind of conceptual manipulation to bypass his ability.

Going off what's been accepted, it just looks like Gojo manipulates concepts to create this space.

But that doesn't really change the existence of the space, it's still just an infinite space compressed into a finite area, so I don't see why a spatial cut doesn't work.

Can you make a crt for this?

 

[PhantomØ4]

CRT for what? Gojo supporters are just making an extrapolation of accepted abilities. It was probably due to it being such a common argument against Gojo that one of them eventually thought up of a possible counter and it spread; memeticz.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Grace still went on though. This is just inconclusive now.

How? Gojo hasnt hit 7 votes and Reinhard would still have more vites even if he did

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

CRT for what? Gojo supporters are just making an extrapolation of accepted abilities. It was probably due to it being such a common argument against Gojo that one of them eventually thought up of a possible counter and it spread; memeticz.

True, but that simply means a crt to disprove it should be made otherwise the character is wanked

 

[Fezzih_007]

How? Gojo hasnt hit 7 votes and Reinhard would still have more vites even if he did

For a verdict, there must be at least seven votes in favor of one character/team, with a minimum difference of three votes. Some examples:
A final vote tally of 6-0 will be considered invalid.
A final vote tally of 7-0 will be considered valid.
A final vote tally of 7-4 will be considered valid.
A final vote tally of 7-5 will be considered invalid.
If both sides have equivalent posts with constructive arguments, the thread shall be deemed inconclusive.

On the page, there's need to be a difference of 3 votes.

 

[Phoenks]

No need for CRT.

Nothing that was accepted implies that the space Gojo creates is anymore than a compressed infinite space.

It only suggests that Gojo's ability to make the space is through manipulating the concepts of near and far.

Which again, this doesn't change the fact that a sword that severs space will still cut through the space no matter how near or far it is.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Well, i always could remove the spartial manipulation for Reinhard too, i guess that would make It fair.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

CRT for what? Gojo supporters are just making an extrapolation of accepted abilities. It was probably due to it being such a common argument against Gojo that one of them eventually thought up of a possible counter and it spread; memeticz.

No one is extrapolating anything, you guys are blatantly ignoring evidence and refusing to directly address the arguments.

Gojo’s infinity space is not regular space and is actively being manipulated by the cknceptual infinity to not allow elements to converge properly within it. It’s not just spatial manipulation.
No idea why you think a simple spatial slash is some super esoteric hax ability.

 

[Phoenks]

No one is extrapolating anything, you guys are blatantly ignoring evidence and refusing to directly address the arguments.

Gojo’s infinity space is not regular space and is actively being manipulated by the cknceptual infinity to not allow elements to converge properly within it. It’s not just spatial manipulation.
No idea why you think a simple spatial slash is some super esoteric hax ability.

I'm unsure why you think creating a space with conceptual abilities makes that space some esoteric existence that can't affected by spatial manipulation.

Again, I don't see anything on the CRT mentioning what you're attempting to argue for. Nor do I see any staff who ever agreed that it was anything but him using conceptual manipulation to create the space.

So, I currently see absolutely no reason a sword meant to sever space would not sever this space.

And for that reason, I believe this match is a stomp.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I'm unsure why you think creating a space with conceptual abilities makes that space some esoteric existence that can't affected by spatial manipulation.

Again, I don't see anything on the CRT mentioning what you're attempting to argue for. Nor do I see any staff who ever agreed that it was anything but him using conceptual manipulation to create the space.

So, I currently see absolutely no reason a sword meant to sever space would not sever this space.

And for that reason, I believe this match is a stomp.

Because I literally just explained why that conceptual space is different. Your incredulity to that means nothing.

You are also not really qualified to talk on the aubject given several statements you’ve already made in the thread aboot your understanding of space.

 

[Phoenks]

Because I literally just explained why that conceptual space is different. Your incredulity to that means nothing.

You are also not really qualified to talk on the aubject given several statements you’ve already made in the thread aboot your understanding of space.

You never explained why. You only explained how he creates the space.

And, whether or not you think I'm qualified is not a problem. If you think distance and space are one of the same, when they are clearly defined differently, that is your issue, not mine. And regardless, that isn't my argument anymore.

There is nothing accepted in the thread that would make the actual space he creates unaffected by a spatial cut.

So, again, my vote is for Reinhard. But the thread should really be closed because it's a stomp.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Because I literally just explained why that conceptual space is different. Your incredulity to that means nothing.

You are also not really qualified to talk on the aubject given several statements you’ve already made in the thread aboot your understanding of space.

1. conceptually manipulating the concept of near and far in an area does not mean that a spatial slash meant to ignore space altogether will be stopped. You dont need conceptual manipulation to break through that.
2. you arent anyone to decide who is qualified or not unless you are a qualified professional on the subject.

 

[KingNanaya]

reinhard fra

 

[SubaruN2000]

Should be 9-6 now, thats a 3 point difference.

 

[KingNanaya]

the we're back in grace

 

[Zabazab]

Was Deathnoodles' vote added? I don't see them on the op

 

[Fezzih_007]

I pretty sure this match is Inco, both sides have Wincons that could happen with the same chances.

Anyway, i gonna call JK Supports.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Was Deathnoodles' vote added? I don't see them on the op

Nope.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

You never explained why. You only explained how he creates the space.

Because I don't need to. Spatial slashing is a relatively low-tier hax. It's affecting space.

Gojo is creating a conceptual infinite space that is controlled by his ability and has unusual properties being added by infinity. Meaning nothing can converge with Gojo. Not skeletons who can move through frozen spacetime, Not esoteric abilities that have targeted Gojo, etc. Because Gojo has control over the fundamental properties of the conceptual space, using a technique that simply cuts through space over a given range, is not going to work. Whatever is propogating the ability to cut space, is going to be overtaken by the control exerted by infinity.

You need to prove this spatial slash can not only ignore regular space, but then infinite space, and then on top of that you'd have to posit it why'd it also bypass the conceptual manipulation that is stopping convergence from happening.

None of which you have remotely done.

And, whether or not you think I'm qualified is not a problem.

It's your problem because you're the one going to have to back up your claims despite demonstrating a lack of knowledge of not only how Gojo's hax works, but also how spatial manipulation interacts with other hax.

If you think distance and space are one of the same, when they are clearly defined differently, that is your issue, not mine. And regardless, that isn't my argument anymore.

I don't need to attack that because the scan always said Gojo created an infinite space. You are the one who brought up the non-sequitur of "distance".

I'd hope it's not because trying to argue Gojo doesn't manipulate space-time, but instead manipulates "distance" would be quite an easy way to get your vote invalidated.

There is nothing accepted in the thread that would make the actual space he creates unaffected by a spatial cut.

Except the above. You are quite literally just plopping your head in the sand and making claims.

Why does a spatial cut bypass concept manip that is clearly > regular spacetime in JK? Why would the wave of energy continue passed infinity?

So, again, my vote is for Reinhard. But the thread should really be closed because it's a stomp.

Incorrect, as you and the supporters have not addressed how he accurately bypasses infinity, nor how he resists a Domain expansion/Domain Expansion/Purple.

 

[Phoenks]

Gojo is creating a conceptual infinite space that is controlled by his ability and has unusual properties being added by infinity.

The space itself isn't even conceptual, people have physically interacted with it before just fine.

Because Gojo has control over the fundamental properties of the conceptual space, using a technique that simply cuts through space over a given range, is not going to work.

Yes, he can control the near and farness of the space.

A sword that slices through space doesn't care about those properties though. At the end of the day, its an infinitely compressed space that the sword doesn't need to move through since it ignores space entirely.

You need to prove this spatial slash can not only ignore regular space, but then infinite space,

Ignoring space also means you can ignore infinite space, provided that the space is compressed into a finite volume (As Gojo's is clearly shown to be).

posit it why'd it also bypass the conceptual manipulation that is stopping convergence from happening.

The convergence only seems to apply to the space he creates. If a sword ignores that space, I don't see why the convergence would still apply to it.

 

[Zabazab]

I think the vote count should be 9-7-1, one's been missed I believe


The explanation of Gojo's Infinity

By manifesting the naturally occurring infinity into reality, Gojo can create an infinite space in which he controls the concepts of "near" and "far" effecting opponents, their energy, abilities, etc., to become incapable of making contact with Gojo due to said entities being unable to converge in the proper space.

Maybe it's the wording, but it doesn't sound like it should work against a sword that cuts through space.
Gojo is controlling the concepts of near and far inside Infinity.
Reinhard's sword will not enter Infinity, as it is cutting through the space itself, and thus not actually entering the space.

Incorrect, as you and the supporters have not addressed how he accurately bypasses infinity, nor how he resists a Domain expansion/Domain Expansion/Purple.

I don't think erasing Reinhard via Purple and killing him is viable since he will just resurrect as long as his soul is not destroyed.
I've said above why I believe Reinhard's mind hax resistance would resist Gojo's mind hax.

 

[Fezzih_007]

I've said above why I believe Reinhard's mind hax resistance would resist Gojo's mind hax.

And i said why It won't, since Gojo mind hax is just better.

 

[Zabazab]

Eh, better is a very non-specific term.

I can say I think Wrath is better mind hax because it's passive, or because it's layered, or because it has more range, or because it can affect more people.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

The space itself isn't even conceptual, people have physically interacted with it before just fine.

Interacting with it doesn't make it not conceptual. The concept of infinity is what is creating and maintaining the space and giving it special attributes.

So this point is moot.

Yes, he can control the near and farness of the space.

No, he controls all aspects of elements connecting in a given set (in this case spacetime). You clearly have not read through all of what was posted for him in the thread.

A sword that slices through space doesn't care about those properties though.

Citation needed.

At the end of the day, its an infinitely compressed space that the sword doesn't need to move through since it ignores space entirely.

"infinitely compressed" Gonna need you to explain what that means and how it relates to Gojo's ability. Because this is not at all how it works.

Ignoring space also means you can ignore infinite space, provided that the space is compressed into a finite volume (As Gojo's is clearly shown to be).

No it's not. Gojo's infinity is literally an infinite space, not a regular finite space as already discussed and linked to you.

Space slashes bypass typical durability by targeting space-containing matter. Once the space that Reinhard is trying to cut reaches infinity space it will then have to resist being controlled by the conceptual manipulation causing attacks to not converge. Simply having spatial hax in no way allows this to be bypassed.

The convergence only seems to apply to the space he creates. If a sword ignores that space, I don't see why the convergence would still apply to it.

What are you saying here? This is literally circular logic. How he the slash going to "ignore the space" if it cannot ignore the conceptual manipulation applying the manipulation of convergence and divergence???? That's the whole point of us telling you he cannot bypass infinity space lmao.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I think the vote count should be 9-7-1, one's been missed I believe


The explanation of Gojo's Infinity

Maybe it's the wording, but it doesn't sound like it should work against a sword that cuts through space.
Gojo is controlling the concepts of near and far inside Infinity.
Reinhard's sword will not enter Infinity, as it is cutting through the space itself, and thus not actually entering the space.

That is not how interaction works my guy. Whatever he is using to cut space is going to be affected by infinity.

Please read the actual full explanation of Infinity.

I don't think erasing Reinhard via Purple and killing him is viable since he will just resurrect as long as his soul is not destroyed.

Uhm, purple erases on a physical, spiritual, and information type 2 level. So doubt it.

I've said above why I believe Reinhard's mind hax resistance would resist Gojo's mind hax.

And that was not a good argument. You provided an instance of resisting "infinite feelings".

Gojo is injecting literal infinite information and then forcibly making that person take infinite actions at once to the point where they are experiencing too much infinity to compute. The two are similar in some aspects but gojo's hax is blatantly more potent.

 

[Phoenks]

The concept of infinity is what is creating and maintaining the space and giving it special attributes.

Yes, but the space itself has not been proven to be conceptual. I am aware Infinity is a conceptual technique, but the space he creates as a result of this power is not conceptual. You have continually not provided proof of it being so.

If the "convergence" is what you are referring to when you say "special attributes," this does not matter.

This allows him to create an infinite space between two points, I am aware. The space-cutting sword, by virtue of splitting through space, will not be interacting with this convergence at all. It won't even be interacting with Gojo's Infinity.

No, he controls all aspects of elements connecting in a given set (in this case spacetime).

So, you agree with me that he is affected space-time with his power? The thing that Reinhard will be ignoring?

Citation needed.

???

A sword that ignores space isn't gonna care about Gojo's few inches of compressed space in Gojo's infinity.

A normal slice will cut through it.

"infinitely compressed" Gonna need you to explain what that means and how it relates to Gojo's ability. Because this is not at all how it works.

I mean that he is inserting an infinite series between a finite space.

Because of this, it infers the infinite space is compressed within this finite space. A product of him controlling the concepts of near and far.

No it's not. Gojo's infinity is literally an infinite space, not a regular finite space as already discussed and linked to you.

I am saying it is an infinite space that he inserts within a finite space.

If you are saying otherwise, please show evidence.

Once the space that Reinhard is trying to cut reaches infinity space

The sword won't "reach" infinity. It will go through it, because it will ignore the space Gojo makes.

if it cannot ignore the conceptual manipulation applying the manipulation of convergence and divergence

? You mean the concepts he is applying to the space?

Because the sword will be ignoring that space entirely...

 

[Fezzih_007]

Eh, better is a very non-specific term.

I meant in a combat situation, but i guess i should be specific.

I can say I think Wrath is better mind hax because it's passive

まあ

, or because it's layered

Don't remember being layered

, or because it has more range

Only when she is speaking on a radius, Gojou domain also have several kilomets, check the profile.

, or because it can affect more people.

Gojou can also affect multiply people with his domain, is on his profile.

 

[PhantomØ4]

No one is extrapolating anything, you guys are blatantly ignoring evidence and refusing to directly address the arguments.

Gojo’s infinity space is not regular space and is actively being manipulated by the cknceptual infinity to not allow elements to converge properly within it. It’s not just spatial manipulation.
No idea why you think a simple spatial slash is some super esoteric hax ability.

Ah, of course! Because to affect the form of an essence thy have to affect it’s very essence given that the opponent employs the essence to affect the form and it obviously causes the form to become metaphysical just like the essence. How could I be so foolish as to not realize it such esoteric interactions?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The space itself isn't even conceptual, people have physically interacted with it before just fine.

You’re showing a cursed spirit, one that’s especially an abstract, to disprove the point. Isn’t exactly a good look.

Yes, he can control the near and farness of the space.

A sword that slices through space doesn't care about those properties though. At the end of the day, its an infinitely compressed space that the sword doesn't need to move through since it ignores space entirely.

No limits fallacy.

Ignoring space also means you can ignore infinite space, provided that the space is compressed into a finite volume (As Gojo's is clearly shown to be).

No limits fallacy. Also, what Gojo’s doing is called compactification, which is manipulating a higher-dimensional structure in a lower one. The JJK0 movie confirms this, as Gojo is not simply affecting space, he’s affecting space-time at the atomic level. Unless you have proof that his sword affects space-time, he’s never touching Gojo.

 

[Phoenks]

No limits fallacy.

This isn't NLF, it's just... how space-severing swords work.

They ignore space. That's the whole point.

No limits fallacy.

Ditto.

It would be different if Gojo's space wasn't "compactified" as you say. Because then cutting through it would require infinite range on top of spatial hax.

But, since it is clearly shown to all be contained in a finite distance, Reinhard should be capable of slicing through it.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Also, what Gojo’s doing is called compactification, which is manipulating a higher-dimensional structure in a lower one. The JJK0 movie confirms this, as Gojo is not simply affecting space, he’s affecting space-time at the atomic level. Unless you have proof that his sword affects space-time, he’s never touching Gojo.

That’s because space & time are the inter-woven fabric of reality directly correlated with one another…

Also, it’s not a no limits fallacy. It’s an argument out of how compressed space works, which is arguing the limits of Gojo’s ability. But I guess people just throw that when they feel like it.

 

[Zabazab]

The manipulation of concepts seems to occur within the infinite space, so cutting through the space itself should not lead to interacting with the conceptual manipulation.

When Reinhard cuts space, he rips through it in such a way that a vacuum/void in the torn space is left behind, that will pull nearby objects in, he is literally ripping the through the space and not passing into it.

Gojo's infinity is an infinite space within a finite area.

 

[Fezzih_007]

.

When Reinhard cuts space, he rips through it in such a way that a vacuum/void in the torn space is left behind, that will pull nearby objects in, he is literally ripping the through the space and not passing into it.

Can you show me Scan for this?

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Yes, but the space itself has not been proven to be conceptual. I am aware Infinity is a conceptual technique, but the space he creates as a result of this power is not conceptual. You have continually not provided proof of it being so.

Yes it has. I have shown you for several threads. If you want to make a CRT, do so.

Until then, stop bringing this up, you're derailing.

If the "convergence" is what you are referring to when you say "special attributes," this does not matter.

This allows him to create an infinite space between two points, I am aware. The space-cutting sword, by virtue of splitting through space, will not be interacting with this convergence at all. It won't even be interacting with Gojo's Infinity.

Speial attributes means things do not follow the same laws when inside the space as they normally would.

No, that's not what convergence is. Please read the thread where this was passed and then come back in.

So, you agree with me that he is affected space-time with his power? The thing that Reinhard will be ignoring?

Space time imbued with conceptual manip powers forcing it to act differently?

Show me Reinhard doing that or this is just the most blatant NLF. The fact that you are staff and championing this as if you're right is Crazy.

???

A sword that ignores space isn't gonna care about Gojo's few inches of compressed space in Gojo's infinity.

Holy shit dude, I can't with you at this point. You're literally just refusing to read and continue to misrepresent the abilities discussed.

A normal slice will cut through it.

It won't. See, I can claim stuff too.

Because of this, it infers the infinite space is compressed within this finite space. A product of him controlling the concepts of near and far.

No.

I am saying it is an infinite space that he inserts within a finite space.

No.

If you are saying otherwise, please show evidence.

Literally did, multiple times. Please read and respond directly to the quotes provided.

The sword won't "reach" infinity. It will go through it, because it will ignore the space Gojo makes.

I am literally at a loss for words right now.

Please invalidate Phoenks vote @OP

? You mean the concepts he is applying to the space?

Because the sword will be ignoring that space entirely...

NLF

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This isn't NLF, it's just... how space-severing swords work.

They ignore space. That's the whole point.

No, because it can’t ignore an infinite amount of space. You haven’t proven it can.

But, since it is clearly shown to all be contained in a finite distance, Reinhard should be capable of slicing through it.

Just because it’s contained in a finite reality doesn’t make it any less infinite, that’s the point of compactification, fitting something higher-dimensional into a lower-dimensional space. You haven’t proven that the space is between them is finite, in any case.

That’s because space & time are the inter-woven fabric of reality directly correlated with one another…

You can affect space without affecting time. A non-argument, really.

Also, it’s not a no limits fallacy. It’s an argument out of how compressed space works, which is arguing the limits of Gojo’s ability. But I guess people just throw that when they feel like it.

When you can’t effectively prove that the sword actually cuts through an infinite amount of space, it is. Much less if the space is conceptual, and a higher-D than anything displayed for Reinhard to affect.