Reinhard Van Astrea vs Satoru Gojo (11-8-1)

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

You guys are using the most questionable logic ever to argue your point.
​

Space-time is 4D. Three dimensions of space, one of time. Gojo’s Limitless affects space-time. Limitless is infinite.

It doesn't. It affects space on an atomic level.
Any temporal consequences are just a byproduct of the manipulation of space, as both are intertwined with one another.
​

Irrelevant

"It refutes my point, so it's irrelevant"
No. I don't care if the author approves of the anime.
The manga is the primary canon, and if it limited the statement to "space", then it's just "space"

What you're doing is arguing the anime statement has more weight than the manga one.
By having "time", the anime statement is contradicting the manga statement, which is limited to "space".
Remember, it's all just one word in jap​

 

[PhantomØ4]

"Killing smurf hax" is create a difference between range and potency
The conclusion will not affect Gojo

Yeah… potency is layers of resistance negation…. smurf hax is the range.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

You guys are using the most questionable logic ever to argue your point.​

A. I didn't make those arguments, don't lump me in with things I haven't said.
B. Using the anime is perfectly fine in this case as it came out AFTER the manga panel, in addition to several other backing points from both the manga (in later chapters) and the full explanation of limitless.

So your point about the anime is ultimately moot, and I'd ask you stop derailing by continuing to bring that up.

 

[Fezzih_007]

And the only thing I can think of that is analogous to an energy catalyzing the mind hax is the Od Laguna

I don't think Od Laguna can Power UP a blessing.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It doesn't. It affects space on an atomic level.
Any temporal consequences are just a byproduct of the manipulation of space, as both are intertwined with one another.

No, not really, because you can affect space without affecting time. The entire premise of Reinhard winning is quite literally him cutting space, which has no affect on time.

"It refutes my point, so it's irrelevant"

No, it’s irrelevant, because if the author approves of it, and it’s consistently proven across multiple mediums. The manga, the anime, and guidebooks. A pretty shallow interpretation of what I said.

No. I don't care if the author approves of the anime.
The manga is the primary canon, and if it limited the statement to "space", then it's just "space"

I did not ask if you cared; nor do I care if you don’t.

What you're doing is arguing the anime statement has more weight than the manga one.
By having "time", the anime statement is contradicting the manga statement, which is limited to "space".
Remember, it's all just one word in jap

I am, because he approved of it. Especially since, again, if he consistently proved it does, then the statement can be used.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

There is no resistence to mind hax on his profile, can you explain his resistence?

And the only thing I can think of that is analogous to an energy catalyzing the mind hax is the Od Laguna- the soul and will of the world that manifests reality itself with mana, and is the source of all mana/magic and Divine Blessings.

Gojo technically has three forms of resistance.
A.) Limitless blocks anything from reaching him. Things like Genjutsu from Naruto would never be able to effect him because chakra has to be propogated to the targets mind to take effect and start the manip. This can be bypassed if infinity is off or bypassed by more potent hax or powernull.
B.) Gojo can see through and decipher almost all cursed energy/techniques he sees within seconds. This is similar to the sharingan/byakugan combined from Naruto.
C. ) Gojo resisted charming magic from Hanami after being briefly affected by it in time to save Yuji.

 

[PhantomØ4]

How is this even relevant? He ain’t even doing anything with the time aspect to add unto limitless like stopping time or eternity bs. It’s still just forcing an infinite 3-D space to unto a finite distance. Why would the opponent need to interact with the time aspect?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Gojo resisted charming magic from Hanami after being briefly affected by it in time to save Yuji.

Mahito also stated that Hanami only affected Gojo thanks to the Domain debuff

 

[Dr._whiteee]

How is this even relevant? He ain’t even doing anything with the time aspect to add unto limitless like stopping time or eternity bs. It’s still just forcing an infinite 3-D space to unto a finite distance. Why would the opponent need to interact with the time aspect?

Yes, he is, space and time (as you literally just stated) are one entity with two separate functions. Gojo was able to exist and actively move and think in a timeless void because of this very fact.

You would actually know how all of this applied if you took the time to read instead of making snarky comments as if you've been cooking anything.

 

[PhantomØ4]

You didn’t answer my question like at all. I didn’t question his ability to interact with time. I questioned how you are logically making the connection between limitless applying an aspect of time manipulation given that it’s working is dilating 3 dimensional space, chef.

Tell me what it’s doing for limitless and based on what.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

You didn’t answer my question like at all. I didn’t question his ability to interact with time. I questioned how you are logically making the connection between limitless applying an aspect of time manipulation given that it’s working is dilating 3 dimensional space, chef.

This seems like a dumb question mate. It's pretty blatantly added to the manipulation aspect of the ability. Because infinity is a space-time manip, bypassing it would also require the ability to work on the time aspect as well.

Hino: Gojo's Limitless technique claims that it's impossible to count until the infinity. Time is a continuous parameter. Therefore, it can be divided into an infinite frames, and hence it takes limitless amount of time to count. Takano: Agreed. If 1 second is sampled every 0.1 second we will get 10 frames, if it is sampled every 0.01 second we will get 100 frames, and if we reduce the sampling time to 0.00000....01 second, the frame numbers will become infinitely large. Sonoda: The key points of this technique are 'approaching action' and 'slowing the convergence'. The 'approaching action' can be expressed as 'a convergent sequence'. If a convergent sequence can be slowed down, this is a 'Rearrangement' of 'Conditionally Convergent Series'. We can write this as Figure 2. The manipulation to rearrange is Blue. By performing the rearrangement (permutation), the distance at the extreme limit, which is larger than N, will be larger than ε (hence the series will not converge).

Hino: I see, this is “Riemann series theorem”, right? Someone dominated by this CT thinks that his attack will 'converge (t/n: hit)' Gojo, but actually it will diverge and hence their attack will never reach Gojo (laugh). Sonoda: Gojo is such a nasty fellow (laugh). Takano: You think he's a nasty fellow. That's... Hino: Another way to explain this technique is using a 'strong phase (long-range strong interaction physics effects)'. Phase simply means a rule to define if 2 points are included in the same open group. A weak phase means 'the states of all group members are the same'. A strong phase means 'each group member has different character'. We can suggest that Gojo can control the 'strength' of the phase (t/n: distance between him and the enemy).

Infinity literally gave this ***** space-time to use in a timeless void captain.

 

[Zabazab]

I still think the argument that Reinhard is not passing through the space between him and Gojo, but rather splitting it to attack him and thus should not be affected by the effects of the hax that functions within the infinite space, makes sense.

It sounds like it's analogous to a bubble around Gojo in which he tweaks the concepts of near and far, and trying to pass through that bubble to reach Gojo is impossible due to the paradox of infinitely dividing space slowing approaching objects. But Reinhard is not entering and passing through the bubble, he is splitting/cutting it apart as we swings, thus should not be affected by the infinity.

I don't really get the 4-D stuff. Reinhard's Dragon Sword Reid has completely blocked ridiculous space-time based hax as well, but that I don't think that would make it 4-D either.

I don't think Od Laguna can Power UP a blessing.

Not saying it can, I'm saying that I don't think the mind hax travels through anything, the word I was probably looking for is medium. There is no evidence of there being a medium or energy by which Mind-Changing "travels", it just changes someone's mind, no reason why Infinity would block it. If there was a medium it would most likely be Od Laguna.

B.) Gojo can see through and decipher almost all cursed energy/techniques he sees within seconds. This is similar to the sharingan/byakugan combined from Naruto.

Would this work against an immediate ability that has zero visual or audio cues?

C. ) Gojo resisted charming magic from Hanami after being briefly affected by it in time to save Yuji.

Can we really be sure that resisting this bit of charming hax would translate to resisting mind hax powerful enough to make people entirely change their minds on things they never would reasonably or logically do, to the degree that it can turn freedom fighters into military dogs & topple entire nations?

 

[PhantomØ4]

Snip

Very simple and straightforward, thanks. So the discussion is relevant. You have to forgive me but the previous posts were nowhere as clear as this Also implied that the barrier had 4 dimensional HDE instead of of being regular space-time hax

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I still think the argument that Reinhard is not passing through the space between him and Gojo, but rather splitting it to attack him and thus should not be affected by the effects of the hax that functions within the infinite space, makes sense.

Unfortunately repeating this doesn't make it any truer fam.

It sounds like it's analogous to a bubble around Gojo in which he tweaks the concepts of near and far, and trying to pass through that bubble to reach Gojo is impossible due to the paradox of infinitely dividing space slowing approaching objects. But Reinhard is not entering and passing through the bubble, he is splitting/cutting it apart as we swings, thus should not be affected by the infinity.

No he isn't fam, literally what you are saying does not make sense. You are trying to apply the consequences of him cutting regular space to the infinity pace, which is a blatant NLF.

The moment the medium by which Reinhard (gonna assume Mana here, correct me if I am wrong) is cutting through space hits the "infinity space" it will be subject to the rules of divergence and convergence which stem from a source > space and time.

Cutting the infinitely splitting space will not bypass this. The "cut" will never reach Gojo because the space it is trying to cut (converge with) will constantly split on a conceptual/mathematical level. Reinhard needs to powernull the concept manip in order to stop the space from turning infinite.

Takano: Limitless CT is a Jujutsu technique using 'Infinity'. Hino: The 'Infinity' is the 'engine (t/n: core)'.

Gojo creates an infinity space between him and the opponent. He rapidly slows the movement of his enemies approaching him. As the result, they cannot touch his body. 2. 'Rapidly slows the movement of his enemies approaching' means 'to stop'.


Takano: Since the discussion became difficult, let's sort this out. Does it mean that Gojo can manipulate the concept of 'nearby' and 'far'? Or he can 'alter' the 'distance feeling' of his enemy? For example, even though they are separated by 100m, he can make the enemy feel they are 'very close'. On the contrary, 1m will be felt 'far' by controlling the phase.
Sonoda: Yes, in an infinite space, that can happen.

I don't really get the 4-D stuff. Reinhard's Dragon Sword Reid has completely blocked ridiculous space-time based hax as well, but that I don't think that would make it 4-D either.

The source of the power and the basis of the power matter a lot. If it isn't comparable to Gojo's stuff it's not really worth bringing up.

Not saying it can, I'm saying that I don't think the mind hax travels through anything, the word I was probably looking for is medium. There is no evidence of there being a medium or energy by which Mind-Changing "travels", it just changes someone's mind,

No this doesn't make sense. All you said was "I don't think there is a medium or energy, the thing just happens". Unless this is random chaos magic not coming from Reinhard and ubennounced to him, this doesn't make sense. Most every technique has a medium. Even if it is coming from someone's mind (gave you the genjutsu example already), it needs to be propagated unless the person is literally affecting reality itself without a medium.

So you're gonna have to prove the assertion that he has thought based, non targetting, reaility based powers that spawn on target and can bypass things such as space, time, and concepts.

no reason why Infinity would block it. If there was a medium it would most likely be Od Laguna.

Provide the citations my guy.

Would this work against an immediate ability that has zero visual or audio cues?

Yeah, unless it was fired when Gojo was unaware/didn't have infinity active.

Can we really be sure that resisting this bit of charming hax would translate to resisting mind hax powerful enough to make people entirely change their minds on things they never would reasonably or logically do, to the degree that it can turn freedom fighters into military dogs & topple entire nations?

Do you think Gojo wanted to let Jogo, a new type of special-grade cursed spirit who just tried to kill him, go? Cause if not I can use the same logic here, and Hanami needed the benefit of amplification, and Domain sure hit to make sure that it affected Gojo.

 

[WIngs_Of_Despair]

I vote Reinhard FRA

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

No, not really, because you can affect space without affecting time. The entire premise of Reinhard winning is quite literally him cutting space, which has no affect on time.

You can does not equal You are forced to.
He affects space on a scale where time is naturally affected.​

No, it’s irrelevant, because if the author approves of it, and it’s consistently proven across multiple mediums. The manga, the anime, and guidebooks. A pretty shallow interpretation of what I said.


I did not ask if you cared; nor do I care if you don’t.



I am, because he approved of it. Especially since, again, if he consistently proved it does, then the statement can be used.

It's proved through what?
We have two versions of the statement, one comes from a stronger canon, we're using that. End of story.
Your personal feelings have no weight here.
The Author's feelings towards the anime has no weight here.

Unless bro said the anime is better than the manga, you're not using the Anime statement over the manga one.

It's consistent through what?
You ain't brought no scans to the table.​

A. I didn't make those arguments, don't lump me in with things I haven't said.

If you don't fit in the description, the argument is not talking about you.
Did I ever quote any of your points?​

B. Using the anime is perfectly fine in this case as it came out AFTER the manga panel, in addition to several other backing points from both the manga (in later chapters) and the full explanation of limitless.

It just isn't.

Simply provide any sort of scan to back up your point.
Because while I don't doubt the consistency, I'm not willing to believe you over words.​

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I vote Reinhard FRA too

 

[ShionAH]

Shouldnt this be a incon since both sides seem to have good wincons? Am I getting it wrong?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I mean, I disagree with using the anime as evidence, but even in the manga there things such as not even time stop being capable to reach Gojo's body

and Domain sure hit to make sure that it affected Gojo.

Hanami wasnt using any domain. Gojo was simply weakened thanks to the post use of a expansion

 

[Zabazab]

No he isn't fam, literally what you are saying does not make sense. You are trying to apply the consequences of him cutting regular space to the infinity pace, which is a blatant NLF.

The moment the medium by which Reinhard (gonna assume Mana here, correct me if I am wrong) is cutting through space hits the "infinity space" it will be subject to the rules of divergence and convergence which stem from a source > space and time.

This infinite space is within a finite area around Gojo in an almost barrier-like form, right? Why should whether the space is infinite or not matter when he is not passing through the space, he is splitting it and cutting through it. The distance needed to travel is only infinite if the infinite space is travelled through.

I don't really know what you mean by medium by which he cuts through space, he cuts it with an object via skill, mana is only used to strengthen his body. He physically slices through space, obliterating it and creating a vacuum/void in its place, in the same way that one would physically cut paper. The space itself is being parted rather than travelled through. It's like saying Moses travelled through water when he crossed the red sea.

No this doesn't make sense. All you said was "I don't think there is a medium or energy, the thing just happens". Unless this is random chaos magic not coming from Reinhard and ubennounced to him, this doesn't make sense. Most every technique has a medium. Even if it is coming from someone's mind (gave you the genjutsu example already), it needs to be propagated unless the person is literally affecting reality itself without a medium.

So you're gonna have to prove the assertion that he has thought based, non targetting, reaility based powers that spawn on target and can bypass things such as space, time, and concepts.

The power of Blessings come from the Od Laguna- the soul of the world. If there was a medium- something that is not known- it would be directly through It. The Od Laguna is the system that prevents the world from breaking, and manifests the real world via its power. It's also sort of omnipresent in a way since it is literally the world itself.

Roswaal: “Od Lagna is… How to say, a stockpile of Mana at the core of the world. No, supposing that the world itself were a living creature, then Od Lagna would be its nexus, and the Od of the world. Though we can only imagine as to its exact location, and whether it is sentient or not.”

Roswaal: “One theory states that Od Lagna is the consciousness ruling over everything in the world. And though it warrants skepticism, perhaps Od Lagna could be the one bestowing people with Divine Protections

Subaru: “That God called Od Lagna is pretty malicious, isn’t it?” Louis: “It’s not an article so great as to be called God, that thing. That thing has nothing like such splendid ideology, after all. It’s just a mechanism, you know. A mechanism for keeping the world from breaking is what it is.”

Reinhard is basically this force's favourite golden boy, and grants him any Blessing he feels he could need- whether it actually exists or not.
How exactly a Blessing's power would "travel" to affect someone is a total unknown, though Od Laguna definitely has a hand in it.

Do you think Gojo wanted to let Jogo, a new type of special-grade cursed spirit who just tried to kill him, go? Cause if not I can use the same logic here, and Hanami needed the benefit of amplification, and Domain sure hit to make sure that it affected Gojo.

I don't really get the relevance, but I was just being cheeky over the suggestion that Reinhard's mind hax resistence would not protect him from Gojo's mind hax.

If Gojo does have a resistence to mind hax then Mind-Changing likely would not work.

 

[Phoenks]

I believe this is well into grace for Reinhard.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Shouldnt this be a incon since both sides seem to have good wincons? Am I getting it wrong?

Yeah, Reinhard can't really attack Gojou because of his Infinity, so he need to wish a power so he can affect Gojo.
And Gojo can't really kill Reinhard (unless his hollow purple do in fact Erase people for existance) so he would need to use his Domain to win.

 

[Fezzih_007]

I believe this is well into grace for Reinhard.

Is not trought, Satella forgot to count votes.

 

[Zabazab]

It's what, 11-8-1 now(?)

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

You can does not equal You are forced to.
He affects space on a scale where time is naturally affected.

It’s just a controlling of space-time, point blank.

It's proved through what?
We have two versions of the statement, one comes from a stronger canon, we're using that.

If you read the earlier post, White already mentioned the examples. The point still stands.

Your personal feelings have no weight here.
The Author's feelings towards the anime has no weight here.

Well, it’s a good thing I haven’t mentioned anything about my feelings, or Akutami’s feelings. If you stopped talking like a haiku, you would pretty clearly understand that.

Unless bro said the anime is better than the manga, you're not using the Anime statement over the manga one.

It's consistent through what?
You ain't brought no scans to the table.​

Read earlier.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yeah, Reinhard can't really attack Gojou because of his Infinity, so he need to wish a power so he can affect Gojo.
And Gojo can't really kill Reinhard (unless his hollow purple do in fact Erase people for existance) so he would need to use his Domain to win.

Purple is void manipulation.

 

[Fezzih_007]

It's what, 11-8-1 now(?)

Well, the votes for mind change should be discounted because Gojo resist that.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Purple is void manipulation.

Oh yeah, i see it now, so with Domain Expansion, that guarantees a 100% hit rate, he could hit Reinhard then.

 

[Zabazab]

100% hit rate is countered by Blessing of Arrow Avoidance, thus Reinhard would be able to avoid it with autododge.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

This infinite space is within a finite area around Gojo in an almost barrier-like form, right? Why should whether the space is infinite or not matter when he is not passing through the space, he is splitting it and cutting through it. The distance needed to travel is only infinite if the infinite space is travelled through.

Because
A.) Cutting space doesn't mean you can cut infinite space. That is an NLF. This would be an issue even if the latter wasn't an issue, which brings us to the next point,
B.) It's not only "distance" its the fact that the slash literally cannot propagate through space that is being manipulated. You need to show scans that the cut can "glide through" not only infinite space, but infinite space which is constantly responding (conceptually) to stop any convergence on Gojo.

Once you enter infinity space, you play by those rules. You need to prove the mana splitting space will bypass this.

I don't really know what you mean by medium by which he cuts through space, he cuts it with an object via skill, mana is only used to strengthen his body. He physically slices through space, obliterating it and creating a vacuum/void in its place, in the same way that one would physically cut paper. The space itself is being parted rather than travelled through. It's like saying Moses travelled through water when he crossed the red sea.

Yes, then this is even worse for him tbh. His sword is still going to be beholden to the effects of infinity unless it can power null (same things with his slashes).

The power of Blessings come from the Od Laguna- the soul of the world. If there was a medium- something that is not known- it would be directly through It. The Od Laguna is the system that prevents the world from breaking, and manifests the real world via its power. It's also sort of omnipresent in a way since it is literally the world itself.

Ok, so two questions
Can you prove that this LAguna source is strengthening the technique? More so than any other normal hax in the verse (simply being the source is not enough, that's like saying all psychic users scale to the phoenix force) and scalable to its full self?

If so then we would have to compare it to the type 2 concept of infinity which also encompasses info type 2, soul, and mind, to be able to bypass infinity.

Reinhard is basically this force's favourite golden boy, and grants him any Blessing he feels he could need- whether it actually exists or not.

Gonna need scans for this and a brief overview of the blessings and how he receives them. Like does he have to recognize a threat and ask for a specific power? Or does this outside force who exists omnipotently choose regardless of his knowledge, reactions, strategy, etc?

How exactly a Blessing's power would "travel" to affect someone is a total unknown, though Od Laguna definitely has a hand in it.

From what it sounds like this soul thing is a 4-D entity that exist everywhere, correct? If that is the case we need to explore if the soul can pinpoint Gojo in it's reality and then bypass infinity.

If that can be done, and done before Gojo kills him, then yeah it'd be a wincon.

But I need to see a lot more, preferably stuff from the series proper.

 

[Fezzih_007]

100% hit rate is countered by Blessing of Arrow Avoidance, thus Reinhard would be able to avoid it with autododge.

I think the 100% hit counter both of them trought, the projectile and auto dodge.

And Gojo have other means to hit him too, like his telerpotation, invisibility or he could just stats amp himself to be more fast than Rein.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

100% hit rate is countered by Blessing of Arrow Avoidance, thus Reinhard would be able to avoid it with autododge.

Not really, his autododge has to bypass subjective reality and Law manip in order to do so. Even limitless was mitigated by domain expansion's powernull.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Yes, then this is even worse for him tbh. His sword is still going to be beholden to the effects of infinity unless it can power null (same things with his slashes).

Can you prove that this Od laguna source is strengthening the technique?

It doesn't, the thing just give powers to him.

Gonna need scans for this and a brief overview of the blessings and how he receives them. Like does he have to recognize a threat and ask for a specific power? Or does this outside force who exists omnipotently choose regardless of his knowledge, reactions, strategy, etc?

In the page, in emporament section.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

"Old Laguna creates and gives blessings to him, though the blessings created are more often utility blessings more than anything incredibly powerful."
That doesn't sound like it was added for no reason, and the example given (which was called beyond superhuman) was Reinhard giving a girl song-based telepathy.

I did see something about Reinhard being loved by the world/fate analog, so if there is something much more impressive that I am missing, please do share. This alone is doing nothing.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Bro this already reached and finished grace like 2 times lmao. Also, it’s 11-7-1

 

[Fezzih_007]

Bro this already reached and finished grace like 2 times lmao. Also, it’s 11-7-1

Well, the votes for mind change should be discounted because Gojo resist that.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Did the person arguing regarding it concede on it? I still saw them arguing back and forth & I don’t feel like reading the new posts atm. That’s really the only way to discount votes on vs threads given that conflicting votes obviously mean the other thinks you’re wrong.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Did the person arguing regarding it concede on it? I still saw them arguing back and forth & I don’t feel like reading the new posts atm. That’s really the only way to discount votes on vs threads given that conflicting votes obviously mean the other thinks you’re wrong.

Yeah, Zabazab-Kun as kind questioning,

If Gojo does have a resistence to mind hax then Mind-Changing likely would not work.

but he stopped.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Uh, I checked and it only discounts 1 vote that relies solely on the mind hax. I guess 10-7-1.

This really should be concluded though breh. It finished grace like twice.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

100% hit rate is countered by Blessing of Arrow Avoidance, thus Reinhard would be able to avoid it with autododge.

The 100% hit is via Subject Reality and Law Manipulation, so I'm not sure