Reinhard Van Astrea vs Satoru Gojo (11-8-1)

[Dr._whiteee]

Uh, I checked and it only discounts 1 vote that relies solely on the mind hax. I guess 10-7-1.

This really should be concluded though breh. It finished grace like twice.

No, most votes for Reinhard have not demonstrated they read the thread nor engaged, despite Reinhard points being proven wrong with evidence that's been available since the start of the thread. So anyone agreeing "FRA" for those reasons would also have their votes invalidated.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Uh, I checked and it only discounts 1 vote that relies solely on the mind hax. I guess 10-7-1.

This really should be concluded though breh. It finished grace like twice.

Is two right?

Yeah so the space cutting attack will still have to bypass that infinite distance thats being created. Its not like the attack cuts through that finite space at once, ignoring the concept of distance altogether.

Either way I do believe Reinhard can bypass infinity via DP mind changing, so I still think he wins in either case.

If Gojo fans/people more knowledgable about Gojo think that Reinhard can't fully resist Unlimited Void, and then this isn't a stomp in Reinhard's favour, then sure I'll vote Reinhard in this circumstance for his mind hax/possibly his space hax.

The possibly space hax don't even count as a vote.

Anyway, is not me that is going to add these to the profiles.

 

[noisyPitta]

Gojo FRA

 

[Zabazab]

Once you enter infinity space, you play by those rules. You need to prove the mana splitting space will bypass this.

It is not travelling through the space- it is cutting the space itself. It will not enter the space Gojo has created but will instead split it in two.

Can you prove that this LAguna source is strengthening the technique? More so than any other normal hax in the verse (simply being the source is not enough, that's like saying all psychic users scale to the phoenix force) and scalable to its full self?

It's not really a "technique" nor does it strengthen this ability- it literally is the reason it can used, it chooses to provide its power to one it has Blessed, and the ability cannot be used if Od Laguna takes it away or is somehow severed from the Blessed individual.

I'm speaking about the medium by which a Blessing like Mind-Changing could affect an individual, which if there is one it could only be via Od Laguna since it grants the power and Reinhard himself is incapable of using things like magic.

Gonna need scans for this and a brief overview of the blessings and how he receives them. Like does he have to recognize a threat and ask for a specific power? Or does this outside force who exists omnipotently choose regardless of his knowledge, reactions, strategy, etc?

Blessings are special powers granted to people at birth by the World (Od Laguna).
They can be useless- such as the ability to tell salt from sugar, or incredibly useful- such as being able to revive from the dead.
Reinhard is loved by the World for whatever reason and will recieve any Blessing he feels he needs- for example, if he was threatened with a soul-destroying sword he could gain a Blessing to protect him from it.

He had always said that Reinhard’s power was already a cheat, this guy, who was said to be beyond superhuman, was being loved way too much by the gods.
The Divine Protection he needed, that Divine Protection which he thought of, had arrived at his hands upon merely wishing it.
Having managed to reach a point with his thoughts, Subaru felt trapped between a rock and a hard place.
Reinhard could acquire a Divine Protection he thought of, if he wished for it. At least, what had happened to Reinhard today, could be expressed that way. Though that in and of itself was an extremely and reassuringly enviable power.

In this world, there are 10 special swords, and one of them is the “Meiken” – the “Life Sword”. If you use this sword to fight, even Reinhardt might be in danger. However, if someone points the Life Sword at him, he probably would receive a Divine Protection to counter it. I have no idea how to kill Reinhardt. Please think about it and tell me.

That doesn't sound like it was added for no reason, and the example given (which was called beyond superhuman) was Reinhard giving a girl song-based telepathy.

He did not give her telepathy- she was born with it. Reinhard wanted to know if she had a Blessing and so he recieved the Blessing of Judgement.
When he needed a way to communicate from too far away for speech, he recieved the Blessing of Telepathy.
They essentially are abilities created and granted by the World to ensure Reinhard can survive and defeat his opponent.

Q: Why is he a cheat character? But, I like him that way!!

A: It's because the world chose Reinhard.

Q: When Reinhard receives a blessing, please tell me if he has to know the name of the blessing.

A: It's not necessary. He is sometimes given blessings that don't exist in this world, after all.

I think the 100% hit counter both of them trought, the projectile and auto dodge.

And Gojo have other means to hit him too, like his telerpotation, invisibility or he could just stats amp himself to be more fast than Rein.

Arrow Avoidance ensures no ranged attacks will reach Reinhard- they will change their trajectory to avoid him, which should render both his and Gojo's ability null.

His seperate ability- his two Autododge Blessings- should then allow him to avoid attacks of his own merit, and gain a speed amp from it.

 

[SubaruN2000]

What kind of resistance to mind hax does gojo have? It's not on his profile. And if he doesn't have that resistance then Reinhard uses his mind changing blessing to turn off infinity.

For domain expansion, Reinhard has resistance to mind hax, debuff immunity (which includes shamak which impares senses and El shamak which impares body control), and even if he dies he comes back via Phoenix blessing.

For hollow purple, arrow avoidance blessing.

Reinhard should win.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

For domain expansion, Reinhard has resistance to mind hax, debuff immunity (which includes shamak which impares senses and El shamak which impares body control), and even if he dies he comes back via Phoenix blessing.

On an infinite type 2 CM & CM3 level?

For hollow purple, arrow avoidance blessing.

In Domains, all attacks hit 100%.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

It is not travelling through the space- it is cutting the space itself. It will not enter the space Gojo has created but will instead split it in two.

Bro, you realize this makes no sense. His mana has to cut through space in order to cut the space. If he doesn't have infinite range he cannot cut through infinite space.

He also cannot get passed the convergence of space being messed with.

Once again, you need to prove your assertions. You just keep claiming this despite the evidence.

It's not really a "technique" nor does it strengthen this ability- it literally is the reason it can used, it chooses to provide its power to one it has Blessed, and the ability cannot be used if Od Laguna takes it away or is somehow severed from the Blessed individual.

Yeah I checked it out and it in no way is going to help here.

I'm speaking about the medium by which a Blessing like Mind-Changing could affect an individual, which if there is one it could only be via Od Laguna since it grants the power and Reinhard himself is incapable of using things like magic.

Yeah you are just making stuff up at this point that hasn't been shown. The example on the profile literally states that giving a girl song-based telepathy was a grand and superhuman display of the blessing ability.

So here not only does it not scale to Od Laguna, but we don't even know what his mind manip would entail, let alone granting it the properties and potency you are aiming for here. Heck, in the example listed, the blessing did indeed work through a medium, one of sound.

That's a no go.

Blessings are special powers granted to people at birth by the World (Od Laguna).
They can be useless- such as the ability to tell salt from sugar, or incredibly useful- such as being able to revive from the dead.
Reinhard is loved by the World for whatever reason and will recieve any Blessing he feels he needs- for example, if he was threatened with a soul-destroying sword he could gain a Blessing to protect him from it.

Ok, but you realize NLF is a thing right?

So I'm going to need examples of blessings he can reasonably use for offense/resistance here, and nothing posted has been remotely close.

He did not give her telepathy- she was born with it. Reinhard wanted to know if she had a Blessing and so he recieved the Blessing of Judgement.
When he needed a way to communicate from too far away for speech, he recieved the Blessing of Telepathy.
They essentially are abilities created and granted by the World to ensure Reinhard can survive and defeat his opponent.

Oh ok, I see. That doesn't change much and just reinforces the general note on the profile that they are mostly basic utility things to make his life easier and not anything remotely close to powerful or useful in this particular instance such as making a mind attack that just so happens to bypass all 3 levels of Gojo's resistance and one shot him.

I think we can agree that isn't remotely evidenced and should be dropped as something relevant here.

Arrow Avoidance ensures no ranged attacks will reach Reinhard- they will change their trajectory to avoid him, which should render both his and Gojo's ability null.

No. You need to prove auto avoidance can bypass the hax of subjective reality and Law manipulation that reign supreme within the space-time confines of a domain expansion. Which you have not done yet.

His seperate ability- his two Autododge Blessings- should then allow him to avoid attacks of his own merit, and gain a speed amp from it.

I really don't see how any of that allows him to resist hax he has no resistance to nor survive the first instance of DE.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

What kind of resistance to mind hax does gojo have? It's not on his profile. And if he doesn't have that resistance then Reinhard uses his mind changing blessing to turn off infinity.

For domain expansion, Reinhard has resistance to mind hax, debuff immunity (which includes shamak which impares senses and El shamak which impares body control), and even if he dies he comes back via Phoenix blessing.

For hollow purple, arrow avoidance blessing.

Reinhard should win.

Yeah no, all of this has been addressed above and you are welcome to join in. You're not gonna come in here and reitrate already debunked things and the numerous points covering your post with a "reinhard should win" conclusion.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Arrow Avoidance ensures no ranged attacks will reach Reinhard- they will change their trajectory to avoid him, which should render both his and Gojo's ability null.

Not sure why you repeting that, since i agree with you, both can counter each other yeah.

His seperate ability- his two Autododge Blessings- should then allow him to avoid attacks of his own merit, and gain a speed amp from it.

Yeah, the 100% hit also would counter that. If you arguments is like that he Reinhard would just nullify the 100% hit, and then his First Attack Immunity can work now, that don't much sense.
The 100% hit should counter both.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Yeah you are just making stuff up at this point that hasn't been shown. The example on the profile literally states that giving a girl song-based telepathy was a grand and superhuman display of the blessing ability.

Whatever was responsible, simply granting the blessing the moment Reinhard desired it...

Reinhard din't give a blessing to her, he sees her, and afterwords he gains her blessing.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Yeah no, all of this has been addressed above and you are welcome to join in. You're not gonna come in here and reitrate already debunked things and the numerous points covering your post with a "reinhard should win" conclusion.

That does happen a lot on this type of thread.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Dang, if it only were how vs threads were counters. Anyways, dude didn’t seem to change his mind like I thought (and the one who did doesn’t agree on other stuff) it is 11-8-1 with the new person who voted.

 

[Death_of_Lems]

Voting for Gojo

 

[Fezzih_007]

Voting for Gojo

Thanks, now is inco again.

 

[Zabazab]

Bro, you realize this makes no sense. His mana has to cut through space in order to cut the space. If he doesn't have infinite range he cannot cut through infinite space.

He also cannot get passed the convergence of space being messed with.

Once again, you need to prove your assertions. You just keep claiming this despite the evidence.

Infinity affects that which approaches Gojo by passing through the finite area of infinite space surrounding Gojo, yes?
A slash that cleaves space itself into is not entering and travelling through the space, it is cutting and destroying it.
Due to the fact that the blade will not be travelling through the infinite space, it will not need to travel an infinite distance- only the finite area that is affected by Infinity.

So here not only does it not scale to Od Laguna, but we don't even know what his mind manip would entail, let alone granting it the properties and potency you are aiming for here. Heck, in the example listed, the blessing did indeed work through a medium, one of sound.

I don't really get what you're on about. You asked what medium Mind-Changing works through and I told you there doesn't seem to be one, he just thinks "X changed their mind about Y" and it happens.

I then said that if there was a medium it would be through the Od Laguna itself.

There is no confirmed medium for it- even the Blessing of Telepathy which can be strengthened via singing, isn't usually used that way- it speaks directly to the mind when used by most people, including Reinhard.

Ok, but you realize NLF is a thing right?

So I'm going to need examples of blessings he can reasonably use for offense/resistance here, and nothing posted has been remotely close.

I'm not suggesting he can gain unreasonable things like say, reality warping- that would be impossible.

What he can absolutely gain are Blessings like a soul-destroying-prevention Blessing as said by the Author (though he already resists soul hax) or Mind-Changing which is a Blessing he has used before.

such as making a mind attack that just so happens to bypass all 3 levels of Gojo's resistance and one shot him.

I mean if you wanna get technical about the profiles, Gojo has zero resistance to mind hax according to it or the linked CRT.
But no, recieving a Blessing that instantly defeats the opponent or nullifies any ability is not a possibility.

No. You need to prove auto avoidance can bypass the hax of subjective reality and Law manipulation that reign supreme within the space-time confines of a domain expansion. Which you have not done yet.

I mean Arrow Avoidance does function by defying the laws of physics, even if he couldn't dodge he still couldn't be killed by Purple as he resists soul hax and can resurrect himself endlessly (not that Gojo's profile says he can attack a person's soul anyway).

And I've already explained why I think mind hax would not work against Reinhard.

 

[Zabazab]

Also, it was Incon when grace ended 15 hours ago, and is still Incon currently.
It should be added as such to their profiles, this should probably be closed.
We also probably should have all shut up when grace ended tbh

 

[PhantomØ4]

That’s what I’ve been saying lmao.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Also, it was Incon when grace ended 15 hours ago, and is still Incon currently.
It should be added as such to their profiles, this should probably be closed.
We also probably should have all shut up when grace ended tbh

Well, i want to keep arguing trought.

And i don't think this thread is in line with what we should consider inconclusive on the page.

 

[Zabazab]

Grace has ended hours ago, neither side can agree on how their abilities should interact, and there has been a lengthy debate.

One side is arguing that Reinhard stomps, the other side is arguing that Gojo stomps.

This is inconclusive, the thread should be closed.

Funnily enough Reid vs Gojo would be a far better match since they can undeniably kill each other.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Well, i want to keep arguing trought.

And i don't think this thread is in line with what we should consider inconclusive on the page.

Have you read the vs matches rules good sir?

 

[Fezzih_007]

Grace has ended hours ago, neither side can agree on how their abilities should interact, and there has been a lengthy debate.

Well, grace it got interrupeted by someone voting Reinhard, and then become grace again, and then Reinhard gained more votes again.
We probally on Clock 0 again. I think that how this works.

One side is arguing that Reinhard stomps, the other side is arguing that Gojo stomps.

This is inconclusive, the thread should be closed.

Well, that's what i saying and voting, but this match is very amusing so i want to keep open for a little bit more, Gojo supporters are rising up.

Funnily enough Reid vs Gojo would be a far better match since they can undeniably kill each other.

Gojo most likely stomp, but i not gonna make a match with Reid until a certain revision got finished.

 

[Zabazab]

Well, grace it got interrupeted by someone voting Reinhard, and then become grace again, and then Reinhard gained more votes again.
We probally on Clock 0 again. I think that how this works.

When the thread reaches a valid vote count, a grace period of 24 will be acknowledged, starting when the final vote that resulted in valid vote count was posted. After this time period the match can be added, with proper format, to the respective characters' pages.

For a verdict, there must be at least seven votes in favor of one character/team, with a minimum difference of three votes. Some examples:
A final vote tally of 6-0 will be considered invalid.
A final vote tally of 7-0 will be considered valid.
A final vote tally of 7-4 will be considered valid.
A final vote tally of 7-5 will be considered invalid.

If both sides have equivalent posts with constructive arguments, the thread shall be deemed inconclusive.

Inconclusive matches, in which the opposing parties are incapable of defeating each other, should only added to profiles if they had a notable debate. A debate is considered notable, in this context, if it features a lengthy debate over an aspect not directly listed on profile.

Examples of such are standard tactics (if not listed), ability mechanics and (unlisted) potency, interaction between abilities, weaknesses, verse equalization, potential methods to circumvent resistances and immortalities, potential learning or growth they could achieve in the timeframe of the fight, whether they could escape long enough for prep based abilities to come into play, etc.

Whether it can or should be added- I do not know, but the result is inconclusive as grace has ended with an invalid vote count.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Oh, i did read the page but we din't reach the requirements.

When the thread reaches a valid vote count, a grace period of 24 will be acknowledged

The page don't say anything about a Invalid vote count can be considered a grace, just his counterpart.

 

[PhantomØ4]

It was in grace period with or without that single vote anyways lol.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Gojo technically has three forms of resistance.
A.) Limitless blocks anything from reaching him. Things like Genjutsu from Naruto would never be able to effect him because chakra has to be propogated to the targets mind to take effect and start the manip. This can be bypassed if infinity is off or bypassed by more potent hax or powernull.
B.) Gojo can see through and decipher almost all cursed energy/techniques he sees within seconds. This is similar to the sharingan/byakugan combined from Naruto.
C. ) Gojo resisted charming magic from Hanami after being briefly affected by it in time to save Yuji.

This isn't resistance to mind hax at all.
A is resisting any sort of mind hax that needs to have a direct connection via energy, aka taking a path. Rein's isn't like that.
B is irrelevant.
C is resistance to Empathic Manipulation, or straight up Cursed Energy, the latter being what's being indexed on the profile.


Gojo does not have any way of resisting Rein's Mind Hax, PERIOD.

 

[Fezzih_007]

A is resisting any sort of mind hax that needs to have a direct connection via energy, aka taking a path. Rein's isn't like that.

Prove that ins't?

C is resistance to Empathic Manipulation

Take three guess to what Empathic Manipulation is.

Empathic Manipulation

The ability to allow to influence feelings and emotions. Usually associated with mental manipulation, but can sometimes be carried out in other ways (e.g., direct biochemical effects). Controlling emotions can be divided into manipulating positive and negative emotions. Also possible to use the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Prove that ins't?

It happens instanteneously, assuming it takes a physical path through space via nothing is the positive claim, so you'd need to prove that this happens.
I don't have to prove a negative.

Take three guess to what Empathic Manipulation is.

Empathic Manipulation

The ability to allow to influence feelings and emotions. Usually associated with mental manipulation, but can sometimes be carried out in other ways (e.g., direct biochemical effects). Controlling emotions can be divided into manipulating positive and negative emotions. Also possible to use the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Questionable reasoning.
"It's associated with Mind Hax" doesn't mean you can resist to entirely different effects that are unrelated to empathy itself. Should we assume Gojo can resist memory wipes as well?
Well he did resist to being slightly relaxed that one time, so I guess, right?

No. Gojo isn't resisting any of the Rein's mind hax effect due to him never showing the capability to do so.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Rein's mind hax is not even gonna reach Gojo to begin with

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Rein's mind hax is not even gonna reach Gojo to begin with

What do you mean "reach"?
It's Mind Hax, it doesn't travel physical space in the first place. There isn't an infinite distance between the two, it's a series of infinite sequences that slows down anything that might reach him

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

There isn't an infinite distance between the two

Actually, there is, as said and shown thousands and thousands of times in this thread. Not even absurd things like time stop can reach Gojo.

Honestly, I dont have energy to debate anything these days, and its grace, so I will just leave it

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Actually, there is, as said and shown thousands and thousands of times in this thread. Not even absurd things like time stop can reach Gojo.

Time travels through space at the speed of light

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

You want to follow this aspect of physics when the same aspect shows that time stop is impossible

 

[Fezzih_007]

Ok, i gonna add this match on the profiles when Satella comes back, and fix the votes, is anyone okay with this?

 

[PhantomØ4]

It’s fine. Grace ended almost 24 hours ago.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Yeah, we could always do a rematch later down the line.

 

[Phoenks]

Shouldn't be added because it is a stomp.

After talking to multiple knowledgeable members about this off site, I am now even more certain in my judgment.

1. Burden of proof is on Gojo supporters to prove that the space is conceptual, and then further prove that it being conceptual separates it from normal space. When I say prove it, I mean genuinely, give evidence and scans of how this "conceptual space" exists and because of existence it is different from other spaces. Neither of these have been done on this thread despite the constant stonewalling that they "already addressed this.

2. Nothing I've said is an NLF of spatial hax. There is no difference between finite space and infinite space in the face of a space-severing sword when that space is contained in a finite range. Because Gojo's range is not infinite, a finite ranged spatial slash will ignore infinity without the need for an infinite range.

Saying otherwise, or claiming NLF, is the equivalent of stating that a 3-D durability negation ability doesn't affect someone with High 3-A durability because "it's infinite." This is obviously not how such concepts are treated on this site, so if that's your argument go change the wiki standards instead of responding to me with blatantly false claims.

3. Gojo's spatial hax affects time by default because space is intertwined with time. That is very simple physics. This does not mean he has the ability to affect space-time freely, especially when you consider that in the same statements it mentions him manipulating it at "the atomic level." Which is a contradiction in of itself. Unless you are going to argue that atoms are 4-dimensional objects. He has also never further demonstrated any manipulation of time, and thus your arguments about it are moot because of insubstantial evidence.

4. Gojo's convergence of infinite sets only applies to the space that he creates with Infinity. And so as I've said multiple times before, if a sword ignores that space, which it would, said convergence does not matter.

Again, burden of proof is on the Gojo supporters to prove that it doesn't work this way. They have her to provide any evidence otherwise and none of what they are saying has been accepted by staff members.

5. This is probably the most important point. Regardless of whether or not certain abilities have been accepted on a CRT, if they are not on the page, they still do not apply in matches like this. And thus this match is invalidated from the start and can not be added to the profiles.

 

[PhantomØ4]

TL;DR

I agree, let’s ban Gojo from the Wiki

 

[Fezzih_007]

After talking to multiple knowledgeable members about this off site

Do you mean "of this site"?

 

[Zabazab]

Do you mean "of this site"?

No he means off site. As in not on the site.

 

[Fezzih_007]

No he means off site. As in not on the site.

Heh.