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Regarding To Aru Magic God Tiering (High 1-C revision)

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Then bring ur quite and facts , all u ar saying is based on nothing but opinions litteraly ur argument is " when the author wrote dimensions here he actually means this and the other time he meant another thing" this argument holds as much as some saying he can destroy the world but since world has 2 meaning , with no show or feats he now is universal

btw u should make ur own thread if u think so, that's a big change even bigger than what ultima is suggesting in universe if u want open a thread and ask lazy or don't talk
 
Accel0305 said:
So just to clear some things up; given the new conditions for tier 1, what kinds of statements prove the exitence of the higher infinities, or the kinds of feats required to qualify for them? Is it simply embodying and existing on a plane that is infinitely higher than the 2-A multiverse, and from there going another 7 to 9 infinities higher to qualify for normal 1-C, and 10 to 11 infinities higher than the normal multiverse to qualify for High 1-C, and so on?
Click to expand...
Well it just needs to be stated that dimensions are infinite or proven somehow, unless contradicted (like: "we are in an infinite dimension", then 2 second later it shows they are limited)

Or the dimensions are big enough , but u need to ask Ultima how big they would need to be
 
Malox1696 said:
Then bring ur quite and facts , all u ar saying is based on nothing but opinions litteraly ur argument is " when the author wrote dimensions here he actually means this and the other time he meant another thing" this argument holds as much as some saying he can destroy the world but since world has 2 meaning , with no show or feats he now is universal
btw u should make ur own thread if u think so, that's a big change even bigger than what ultima is suggesting in universe if u want open a thread and ask lazy or don't talk
Click to expand...
Hm, i think that you don't got my point in this thread about Dimension, so, i'll try explain as best as possible why i claim that those two 'dimension' feat aren't related due to being completly different by nature (at least with how the wiki treat them):

So firstly, the word 'Dimension' can mean two different thing, you can interpret you differently, Firstly, the Dimensions in the way of Mathematical Space with coordonate and axis, this is the definition in physics:

In physics and mathematics, the dimension of a mathematical space (or object) is informally defined as the minimum number of coordinates needed to specify any point within it. Thus a line has a dimension of one because only one coordinate is needed to specify a point on it ― for example, the point at 5 on a number line. A surface such as a plane or the surface of a cylinder or sphere has a dimension of two because two coordinates are needed to specify a point on it ― for example, both a latitude and longitude are required to locate a point on the surface of a sphere. The inside of a cube, a cylinder or a sphere is three-dimensional because three coordinates are needed to locate a point within these spaces.
This definition could use the Quantium mechanics theory for determind the number of dimension and, as you know, to aru use the Schrödinger's Cat idea which use quantium mechanics. This is one side of dimension we found in Toaruverse The other definition of Dimension is in the way of Higher Plane of existence, transcendant to each other, in my mind i've for exemple the Superstring theory and his exemple of 'Extra dimension, it use 10 additional dimensional space higher to each other but if you want a concrete exemple, the wiki actually use the definition you need to be tier 1:

Characters who can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model
~ Tiering System​
or you can look the quote in my previous post, and if you look, Ricsi who know what i'm saying about dimension also tell that dimension, just like i've said from the beginning, use two definition, one which said axis, the other, higher plane.

So now that i've explained that 'Dimension' has two definition, what is going on with Toaru? well it's simple:

This Quote from the blog (the one with the 11D) talk about the existing Dimension which are 11, those Dimension are use for esper's teleportation for dimensional axis within space stuff, if you read all the post correctly you should know that it corrsepond to the first definition of Dimension i've wrote above.

Now the second Quote (Curtana's cutting feat): Talk about how the sword work, and you read that when it cut an higher D stuff, it leave lower D debrits(like when she cutted the fourh D, this leaved three D debrits), this probably show the nature of the dimension she cut, and since what she cut is higher D, you should know that this is the second Def of the Dimension i've wrote above (Eh finally, i'am not even sure if it correspond of higher D from an even higher plane of existence but again i don't know much of this feat so i can really tell if it's a feat of higher Plane or just Higher D axis).

To conclude by answer your reply, no, my argument isn't just " when the author wrote dimensions here he actually means this and the other time he meant another thing" but due to the fact that in one case, it talk about space axis and the other probably talk about Higher plane (even if i'am not sure if this is a proof of higher plan, but it's mainly to answer you), now my final though about that is: The 11D aren't Higher D but space axist as the quotes imply, the other feat is (maybe) an higher D feat, so the verse will be downgraded but could probably stay in tier 1, also, even if the little Ultima don't want to get involved in this thread again, it could be helpful if he make an effort for this time, without that, this thread will never end, same for DT, it was my final thought, thanks for your attention.
 
again open a thread don't bloat this already bloated one

and Carissa is clearly talking about spatial dimension when she mentions the debris

Did you know that the cross section you get by slicing a 3 dimensional object is 2 dimensional? And slicing a 2 dimensional object creates a 1 dimensional cross section."

With a clunk, the mysterious belt-shaped object that had been irrationally floating in the air fell to the ground right next to Kamijou.

It felt something like pottery, but it was actually extremely heavy despite how it looked.

Even after it fell, it continued to sink into the black soil.

"Similarly, when a dimension higher than our 3 dimensions is sliced, the cross section appears in this world in a 3 dimensional form. As a result, the ruins of a cross section appears like this."
 
@Malox I think you might still be confused because of the terminology used. The "dimensions" used in Toaru are actual dimensions (spatial). The "dimensions" to qualify for Tier 1 (those he is referring to) are basically higher planes/infinities of existence. Honestly it should be called something else. Using the term "dimensions" for higher planes of existence just causes unnecessary confusion
 
If the problem is the meaning of "dimension" in Curtana's Severing Spell and "dimension" in Kuroko's teleportation, can't we use the original text to solve this?
 
Accel0305 said:
@Malox I think you might still be confused because of the terminology used. The "dimensions" used in Toaru are actual dimensions (spatial). The "dimensions" to qualify for Tier 1 (those he is referring to) are basically higher planes/infinities of existence. Honestly it should be called something else. Using the term "dimensions" for higher planes of existence just causes unnecessary confusion
Click to expand...
^This is why the verse will probably be downgraded.
 
Hm? I think you're still confused, we always talked about how toaruverse treat his Dimensions, the purpose of the downgrade was about that in the first place, that why, in my numerous replies,I've tried to prove that toaru's 11 dimensions (in this case) aren't treated has higher plane of existence so, by the new wiki's tiering system, they can no longer be High 1-C, This is simple.
 
yes exactly u are trying to prove something not directly relate, here we are discussion on the basis that was until now that they have 11 d and curtana and teleportation are the same thing, we are discussion the size of said dimension, u are trying to say another thing entirely, making this more confusing, please do make a thread about it not here
 
Not really again, if you look at the OP's post and DT's answers, they talk about how the dimension in toaru is treated, I just answer OP's stuff with my arguments, indeed, this thread also talked about the size of the said dimension, but before proving the size, you need firstly to prove that those ones are indeed Higher Plane of existence but given the quotes, they are not (the 11D), talking about the size don't make much sense when OP's request was about the legitimacy of the dimension treated as Higher Plane.

You are free to ask him (and Lazy or DT since they seem to agree with a downgrade) again if you doubt so much, I can't help you more than what I've already tried to explain you many time In my previous posts.
 
Again given the quote they say the same thing it's u who is saying they aren't, if u want go read the OG jap text
 
'Dimension' in those two quotes are treated differently (as i've already explained in my long post above), one talk about spatial axis, and the other seem to involve higher D [even if I've a slightly doubt and curtana isn't treated as higher D, if so, this isn't Tier 1, probably better to contact DT or Ultima, they are better than me in higher d stuff) but the explanation is already In my numerous posts above.

I guess that my Job is done here, i don't have more time so I'll stand by in see how this thread will go.
 
Skimming back, I only see people mainly arguing about if it's really a plane of existence or not tho

Which you gave the proof that it is already.

What we need is concrete evidence if they are indeed infinitely superior to the lower D

Even if you had already shown it, I politely ask if you can re-show it again
 
only if u ignore part of the quotes that talk about 1-2-3 dimensions , but u are welcome to call ultima and DT and lazyhunter the last 2 are the ones who made the blogs of the to aru universe
 
Diinou HotHead said:
Skimming back, I only see people mainly arguing about if it's really a plane of existence or not tho
Which you gave the proof that it is already.

What we need is concrete evidence if they are indeed infinitely superior to the lower D

Even if you had already shown it, I politely ask if you can re-show it again
Click to expand...
actually we don't have evidence that they are infinite for any plane of superior D, the only infinite spaces we have in index are : the whole world, aleister non-euclidean space that has infinite space and the hidden world which lacks space or time and should be superior to 11 d

but we do know the minimum size they have thanks to curtana maximum possible dimensional cross section she could cut (aka universal size) and by using that u pretty much use the inverse of what ultima explained in his thread to assume the size, as 3 d cube is made of a number of 2 d square that can be infinite or not, actually i would like to ask ultima if having the ability to infinitely cut said cross section count as infinite :

"The former is actually geometrically accurate, there is, say, an infinite number of squares within a cube, but the issue is that this is mostly a very basic geometrical notion that doesn't really conform to how this stuff would play out within the physical world we live in, similar to how any object can be mathematically visualized as an uncountably infinite set of points, no matter how large or small. "

if curtana can create infinite three dimensional cross section by cutting the higher dimension (similar to the cube and sqaure example), would that mean the entire Dimension is infinite ?
 
^This don't mean that there exist 11 nor an infinite amount of Higher plane of existence, at best this is a proof of the existence of Higher plane but that's all.
 
Again if u want to disprove that index has 11 d open a thread, it not cause it's ur opinion it becomes a fact , if people had to do it to show it had 11d now u have to do it , and u coukd Just look at the OG Jap text if u search
 
This thread is fine as I've already explained above. Index has 11D yes but 11 Dimensional axis, not Higher Plane of existence, to simplify, if The verse want to keep his tiering it need to prove that the verse's 11D are higher plane, but it's no longer possible since they are Dimensional axis, you see?
 
ok if so do it, ask the mods to change it, i mean ur opinions surpass anything that other says, go ahead after all rule like ctr or making thread don't apply to u right ?

edit: look i will ask the mods for u, even to make those changes oh so rightful user
 
What are the conclusions here?
 
Antvasima said:
What are the conclusions here?
Click to expand...
still waiting for ultima but the causality is derailing hard, i already asked to make a separate thread about it if he think there are less than 11 d in index
 
Maybe DontTalkDT and LazyHunter are able to help?
 
if u mean the 11d yes but please open another thread, this is already bloated, i would remove most thing that are not about the topic or replies with no substance like "the dimensions are infinite because i said so"
 
I was asked to comment on this again, although I'm not sure if I can add much to the discussion beyond gathering extra quotes and trying to answer questions about the series, given my lack of familiarity with the new tiering system.

I don't think that the dimensions used by esper teleporters are different than those slashed via Curtana. Both are referred to and described as spatial axis/dimension related powers with special effects on the 3-D world, and Curtana mentions its slashes cut all higher dimensions and all lower dimensions, clearly stablishing there are multiple higher dimensions being cut.

Extra teleporter quotes:

Volume 8 Prologue

Shirai's ability was called "Teleport". Basically, she could teleport anything she touched (including herself) by ignoring the three dimensions, and send it far away. However, she could only teleport things that she could touch.

Volume 8 Chapter 1

Because of the noise disturbance, Shirai's teleportation failed. When she used her teleportation, she had to define the three dimensions by using the theory of the eleventh dimension, and use the resulting values to recalculate and redefine them. The process was extremely complicated, and it sometimes failed due to sudden anxiety or surprise.

Volume 8 Chapter 3

"First, regarding the teleporter. Searching through the records, including you, there are 58 such espers in Academy City. As expected of an ability which requires the calculation and manipulation of the eleventh dimension, there aren't a lot of people who know how to use it."

[...]

Though it was not practically tested, it was not hard to imagine it. The teleporter had to calculate his or her own absolute coordinates on the eleventh dimension, and not the surface location on the third dimension. So once other teleporters wanted to change their own coordinates, the coordinate information in their brain would be interfered with.

Volume 8 Chapter 4

The boy gritted his teeth. His fist ignored the change in space as it moved forward.

An amazing thing happened.

Suddenly, a sound of steel being hit could be heard. The originally distorted space seemed to be flattened by the boy's fist. The invisible thing that refracted the light seemed like it had been punched far away.

For a three-dimensional object to do a forced intervention on the eleventh-dimension spatial axis; Shirai, who had mastered those calculations, understood very well that that was like driving up the wrong way on a one-way road.

Extra Curtana quotes:

Volume 18 Chapter 7

With a tremendous noise, every dimension in the space Villian had just been was severed.

A white belt-like object that was over 100 meters long was created. A few seconds later, that three dimensional object that was the cross section of the severed dimensions that could manifest in the three dimensional world fell to the ground with a thud.

[...]

A chill ran down his spine. After all, his opponent attacked with a strike that could slice through all dimensions that could be represented with whole numbers. If he misread the situation, he wouldn't just lose his right arm. His entire body would be sliced in two.

[...]

With a loud impact, Carissa landed near the third princess and dragged her sister off the ground with one hand. By the time Villian raised her head, the end of Curtana Original was already pressed against her throat. That sword had no tip or blade, but it still held the ability to slice through all whole number dimensions.

Are dimensions in Index treated as infinitely higher planes of existence, which is what we use to rate Tier 1 now? (Feel free to correct me in this assumption otherwise) No, at least to my understanding of it. There's no "This character/being is 7th dimensional, so it's infinitely superior to 6th dimensional beings, who are superior to 5th, etc...". The closest thing to that I think is how the Magic Gods of Gremlin are too big of an existence to exist within the normal world without accidentally destroying it by moving an arm or a leg, so they have to resort to infinitely divide their existence and infinite power like an endless matryoshka doll to trick the world into barely containing them.

New Testament 12

"But, High Priest," cut in a girl's voice that sounded even younger and also childish. "Miss Zombie's theory is essentially the same as holding up opposing mirrors, right? By splitting up our power infinitely, we can intentionally weaken ourselves and avoid destroying the world whenever we move an arm or leg."

"What about it, Niang-Niang?"

"I'm just wondering if the symbol ∞ will really grow weaker when you split it up. I don't want to smash the world up like stained glass the first step I take. We're not like Othinus."

"It doesn't matter if it's a mere deception as long as it works. Just like a Moebius strip or a Klein bottle, some concepts are allowed to exist even if they can't be properly defined, Niang-Niang."

[...]

"Nee hee hee. Splitting up our power like opposing mirrors, huh?"

Niang-Niang laughed like a mischievous child. She wore a short white China dress and had a distinctive charm attached to her forehead which she poked at with her index finger.

"By infinitely dividing our infinite power, we've kept ourselves at a level just barely low enough for this world to contain. …But in a way, this is the worst possible transformation, don't you think? You could just keep killing and killing us without end. Like a matryoshka doll or an onion, you would have to fight a nearly eternal battle to completely kill us."

"There is no need to hold back. We are already full Magic Gods, so it would be unnatural to find any way for us to lose."

"High Priest, this is why you can't reach enlightenment. How long is it going to take you to realize that?"

At any rate, the Magic Gods had a technique of moving through the world, even if it was like treading on thin ice.

[...]

"Found your feet? Do you mean that spell that infinitely divides the infinite capacity of a Magic God to trick the world by eternally layering existences that are just barely small enough for the world to contain?"

"Word gets to you quickly. Anyway, this might be an excellent opportunity for you, Aleister. Our power is limited to what can be explained in this world, so this would be the best time to kill us."

Even that line had the implied caveat of "but it is still essentially impossible".

For one thing, no one existed who could kill a being that the world could only just barely contain. Whether a Magic God's power was divided by a billion or a trillion, a mere magician was still not enough to kill them.

The Magic God's existence was infinitely layered like a matryoshka doll or an onion. A Magic God was impossible to kill in the first place, but one would have to kill them a trillion or a quadrillion times before they would cease to exist.

Are Phases infinitely higher planes of existence, then? I don't think so. Although there are "higher" and "lower" Phases, this info comes from Tsuchimikado's explanation to Touma about Heaven (higher) and Hell (lower), in which he compares them to "higher" and "lower" frequencies, with the human realm in between. Angels are not infinitely stronger than inhabitants of the human realm, nor are demons infinitely weaker. Both types of creatures could interact with one another normally if they were to meet in the human realm.

Besides the normal 11-D universe and Phases we have the World Rejecter's world, which is an alternate world inside the same unique timeline of indeterminate size (goes into outer space, but we don't know how big it actually is), the hidden Phase of Gremlin where the concepts of distance and time don't matter (also described as a non-existant place, although it's also mentioned "place" is not an accurate word for it), and the alternate-dimensional space inside the Windowless Building (which reaches outside the planet Earth and ignores Euclidean geometry).
 
@Ultima If the 11-D are higher planes of existence or not, it was the purpose of this downgrade no?

@Lazy Thanks a lot, you confirmed my doubt, It seem that indeed, they are the same Dimensional stuff but, they're not higher plane (I thought curtana was Higher D stuff but it seem not now), only treated as D-axis.
 
Ultima Reality said:
What is even being discussed at this point?
Click to expand...
actually quite simple, 1) can we somehow calculate the size of the higher dimension by having the cross section of 1 similar to the cube square example ? cause if so the max cross sections possible would be the size of the universe 2) always following the cube square example, if u could cut an infinite number of square from a cube that would mean that the cube is infinite ? if so there is really no limit on how many cross section can be cut by curtana at last but what is explained and shown in the novel

just to further expand on why I'm fixated on the cube square example aka this

"

There is also the argument that, since, a higher-dimensional object possess an infinite number of slices of lower-dimensional objects within itself, then they are necessarily infinitely larger than them, and as a consequence of that, you can't really stack up lower-dimensional objects to get yourself a higher-dimensional one.

The former is actually geometrically accurate, there is, say, an infinite number of squares within a cube, but the issue is that this is mostly a very basic geometrical notion that doesn't really conform to how this stuff would play out within the physical world we live in, similar to how any object can be mathematically visualized as an uncountably infinite set of points, no matter how large or small. Higher and lower-dimensional objects are just... arbitrarily large, and can really be of literally any size."

, curtana works exactly like that, it cuts the higher dimension and create lower dimensional object from it but instead of being 3d to 2d it's 11d to 10d then 10d to 9d,etc but only the 3d part (so 4d to 3d) is perceived cause obviously the characters can only perceive a 3d world
 
@LazyHunter

Thank you for helping out.

@Ultima

What do you think about the information that he provided?
 
I don't actually mind To Aru remaining High 1-C, after giving a read to some of the excerpts in the blog. The Universe in which the series takes place is pretty clearly 11-dimensional, and as far as I see this is enough for one to qualify for High 1-C, as the dimensions in this case don't seem to be insignificantly-sized and assuming so is sorta the epitome of nitpicking, even if they are described a bit vaguely. I may change my mind on this topic later on, but as of now, this is my stance on it.
 
Okay. Thanks. That seems to be the conclusion here then.

Do any of the profiles or the verse page require additional explanations adapted to our new tiering system?
 
Ultima Reality said:
I don't actually mind To Aru remaining High 1-C, after giving a read to some of the excerpts in the blog. The Universe in which the series takes place is pretty clearly 11-dimensional, and as far as I see this is enough for one to qualify for High 1-C, as the dimensions in this case don't seem to be insignificantly-sized and assuming so is sorta the epitome of nitpicking, even if they are described a bit vaguely. I may change my mind on this topic later on, but as of now, this is my stance on it.
Click to expand...
So, few hundred meters is non-insignificant now?

Just asking for general purposes.
 
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