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Regarding To Aru Magic God Tiering (High 1-C revision)

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Diinou HotHead said:
Ultima said he's bored of this Thread tho
Click to expand...
Eh, i guess i'll just follow in his footsteps then.

@Accel i've already read the quote above and the blog, and i've concluded the interpretation of dimension between the 11D stuff and Curtana's feats aren't related, one talk about dimensionalm axis, the other is the higher D stuff, the verse posesses higher D but not the 11.
 
The Causality said:
Diinou HotHead said:
Ultima said he's bored of this Thread tho
Click to expand...
Eh, i guess i'll just follow in his footsteps then.
@Accel i've already read the quote above and the blog, and i've concluded the interpretation of dimension between the 11D stuff and Curtana's feats aren't related, one talk about dimensionalm axis, the other is the higher D stuff, the verse posesses higher D but not the 11.
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"You've concluded"? I'm sorry, but your conclusion is horribly wrong. You should probably read the series before stating such a thing. 11-D dimensions and Curtana dimensions are the exact same framework and dimensions.

You concluding it doesn't mean anything when the verse itself says otherwise. So Espers literally saying they calculate on an 11 dimension framework like Teleportation and moving matter through 11th Dimension to affect 3D causality means 11-D doesn't exist?

This is just a cause of you misinterpreting it and thinking there is no direct correlation.
 
1. Calm down with the caps lock and bolding, Accel, you are just embarrassing yourself by being angry.

2. Ultima is bored because for like 100 posts it's been next to nothing but goalpost moving and circular conversations from ToAru fans getting increasingly desperate to protect their series . Both Ultima and DT made themselves clear and everyone has a right to disagree with you without being personally attacked for it.

3. Were a handful of people able to accept rhat they can't "win" (a stupid sentiment in itself) every debate, things would have already been downgraded. But instead, here we are, locked in the argument from exhaustion, to tire out the opposition and then claim victory when they get so frustrated with how unbearable you can be that they give up.
 
@Cause They are the same, the quotes refer to the same thing, the only thing supernatural about Curtana is the omnidimensional perforation phenomena. The dimensions and material are a natural effect. Touma obviously says he knows the dimensions curtana manipulates exist already because certain espers manipulate them. Last time I'll address this point, idk what to tell you other than you are reading the blog and quotes wrong.
 
Dude, aren't you the guy who keeps restating the same argument over and over again when no one has even been discussing that for the past 100 posts? You've been putting words in our mouthes for the past 100 posts to try and fit your narrative that "we're saying this so therefore we're wrong" when no one has even been arguing the thing you keep bringing up nor saying it.

I don't mean to take a pot shot, but everything you just said can be applied to accurately describe your stance atm. I don't think you should be talking about circular arguments with what you've been doing dude.

That's all I have to say on that though, not gonna waste this thread arguing over petty stuff. I apologize for any offense you take to this.
 
The Causality said:
Diinou HotHead said:
Ultima said he's bored of this Thread tho
Click to expand...
Eh, i guess i'll just follow in his footsteps then.
@Accel i've already read the quote above and the blog, and i've concluded the interpretation of dimension between the 11D stuff and Curtana's feats aren't related, one talk about dimensionalm axis, the other is the higher D stuff, the verse posesses higher D but not the 11.
Click to expand...
Shirai's ability was called Teleport. It was not limited to three dimension rules, so she could move about freely within space.

However, there was a weakness to this ability. Though the phrase "to teleport within space" sounded simple, the theory behind it was to get away from the three dimensions, find her position in the eleventh dimension, and then calculate the vectors to teleport. Such calculations' complexity couldn't be compared to the simple commands that ordinary espers would have, like "fire a fireball", or "fire electric strikes".


" ThE vErSe PoSeSsEs HiGhEr D bUt NoT tHe 11"

"i'Ve AlReAdY rEaD tHe BlOg"

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...ajutsu_no_Index_Explanation_Thread#Dimensions

I'm just asking at this point, but isn't this trolling and possible banned by server rules, as he ignores blogs already approved time ages ago and literal quotes ?

Refrain from spamming, trolling, threatening, using derogatory comments of any form (ethnic, homophobic, belittling the disabled or mentally ill, etcetera), and rude, vulgar, sexist, etcetera offensive language.

@mattehw

if people are still arguing about just having dimensions is enough reason to be infinite either ignore them or remove their post, we don't need useless troll or people that know nothing about physic and like to just post opinions based on nothing, anyway just ask ultima what "at least universal possibly infinite dimensions size" fits in the tier, then he decides
 
Nice strawman but those aren't higher D, jut like your quote said, it use vector to calculate the position of the teleportation so yes spatial axis, the verse don't posesses 11-D in the sense of higher dimension.
 
@Matt There has been no goalpost moving. It may seem that way to you since you have been misunderstanding our stance for posts now. Anyone can disagree, but Ultima and DT's latest stance have been rebuttaled already and are waiting for a response, saying people are desperate because they are trying to debate downgrades is disingenuous at best.
 
Now you are literally accusing everyone of disagreeing of just being stupid or a troll. And once again, you treat your opinion ad indisputable fact. This is the very definition of being strawman, goalpost-moving, and also arrogance. You just need to accept that you're not keeping the ratings as they are.
 
@Causality Don't call them dimensions then. My point is that your definition/explanation of dimensions is different from what is usually described in fiction whenever the term "dimension" is used, so you can't expect someone to site the usage of "dimension" in a work of fiction, and at the same time expect it to fit your definition/explanation of "dimension". Only a very select few verses use your definition, and they hardly ever call them dimensions (even if they do, it's very vague). You're describing infinitely higher plane of existence, which just isn't what a "dimension" is. A dimension is a measure of spatial extent in a particular direction, and if a dimensional axis is used for something such as movement, it's because that dimensional plane exists. Being "greater" than lower dimensional objects/beings is just a property that comes with being a higher dimensional object/being (just like how an actual 3D bucket is "greater" than a truly 2D drawing of a bucket).
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Now you are literally accusing everyone of disagreeing of just being stupid or a troll. And once again, you treat your opinion ad indisputable fact. This is the very definition of being strawman, goalpost-moving, and also arrogance. You just need to accept that you're not keeping the ratings as they are.
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Wow there buddy, I think you're using words you don't understand the meaning of because they sound strong and smart. Goalpost moving would require us to be moving arguments concurrently as they get debunked. We've always been doing the qualitive and non-insignificant argument, so that's a misuse of that definition right there.

You're throwing false statements around when Malox didn't say such a thing about disagreeing, just that they're ignoring accepted blogs for their own headcanons, so again, you're putting words in peoples mouths like you've been doing for the entire thread.

Arrogance? What do we have to be arrogant about?

You should probably bring up an argument against us before you state such a thing regarding your last point.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Now you are literally accusing everyone of disagreeing of just being stupid or a troll. And once again, you treat your opinion ad indisputable fact. This is the very definition of being strawman, goalpost-moving, and also arrogance. You just need to accept that you're not keeping the ratings as they are.
Click to expand...
the troll are the one arguing against u that keep saying "it'as infinite cause it's a dimension," because they didn't even brother to actually read ultima thread, casualty is another one cause he is literary saying he reads but he didn't or he would not make this claims that litteraly contridcts ultima whole proposal

" Firstly, it is extremely important to note that Dimensions are just Axis of Movement, nothing more and nothing less. Higher Dimensions are not layers or higher levels of existence in any way, they are just additional directions through which individual shapes and entities can displace themselves in. "

and I'm literary saying let ultima decide how i'm disagreeing anyone that is against my opinion ? i already said my importance is not on the tier, what's important is the mechanics
 
Lazy was okay with the downgrade but he was also not sure about it since it's out of his area of experitise, so I wouldn't exactly use him as prime source of decision towards it, but to take in the info he provides into consideration instead regarding verse context.

Also not too sure how Malox quoting Lazy's blog and him being supposedly for the downgrade correlates at all? But okay. This is getting derailed hard.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Also it's funny that Malox is using a LazyHunter blog when LazyHunter was personally fine with these downgrades
Click to expand...
if u mena this

"As for the tiering, I don't know a lot about Tier 1, but if the esper teleporters and Curtana's quotes are considered too vague to support the Tier 1 rating by people more experienced on this subject than I am then I don't personally see an issue with downgrading the verse to Tier 2. The series is ultimately 1 universe/timeline with 11 spatial dimensions + some extra stuff with mostly vague and unspecified sizes (supernatural Phases and World Rejecter's world). "

he literary says he doesn't know a lot about tier 1, and that it has 11 d, while i see u support casaulity when he litteraly says

The Causality wrote:

Nice strawman but those aren't higher D, jut like your quote said, it use vector to calculate the position of the teleportation so yes spatial axis, the verse don't posesses 11-D in the sense of higher dimension.

which is either saying it does not have 11 d or that ultima is wrong as he said in his own thread

" Firstly, it is extremely important to note that Dimensions are just Axis of Movement, nothing more and nothing less. Higher Dimensions are not layers or higher levels of existence in any way, they are just additional directions through which individual shapes and entities can displace themselves in. "


so please enlighten me on how im arrogant and all when we have such disregard of even the creator of the thread, now im asking myself if people posting here even read ultima thread or came here just to voice their opinions (both side with or aganist the down grade)
 
@Maolx in the first place Ultima proposed to downgrade the verse due to the fact that the 11D aren't related to higher plane of existence but only spatial coordonate, those two aren't the same at all, all the quote of 11D in this thread and Lazy's blog involve axis dimension, that's no longer valid for tier 1, to quote the new tiering system

Characters who can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher planes or levels of existence which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, either by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or having a size equivalent to a greater infinity in relation to them.
Which is not the case here, Toaru's esper use 11D stuff for teleportation via spatial axis and vector, to being in tier 1, you need to show that those 11D are actually Higher plane of existence, transcendent to each other, having 11Dimension no longer warrant tier 1 in the new system, taht why Ultima want(ed?) to downgrade.

@Accel my fault here is to call them dimension insteads of Higher plane of existence yeah, i think people can miss the interpretation i guess but you get my point about the duifference between the 11D and the higher plane of existence
 
Ultima's comment that you quoted refers to spatial dimension, which, while "higher" in name, are just ways an object can move.

Higher dimensions, as Causality wrote, refers to being a higher abstraction, or whatever the proper name for it is. Long story short, infinity for us is literally nothing by the prespective of a X being from a higher abstraction (which is tier 2), and someone infinitely stronger than X is nothing to a being an abstraction above X (Which would be Low 1-C)
 
maybe u mean bigger size by higher plane of existence ? cause the point of ulitima was removing that definition


btw im literally using the example made by ultima here with curtana

"There is also the argument that, since, a higher-dimensional object possess an infinite number of slices of lower-dimensional objects within itself, then they are necessarily infinitely larger than them, and as a consequence of that, you can't really stack up lower-dimensional objects to get yourself a higher-dimensional one.

The former is actually geometrically accurate, there is, say, an infinite number of squares within a cube, but the issue is that this is mostly a very basic geometrical notion that doesn't really conform to how this stuff would play out within the physical world we live in, similar to how any object can be mathematically visualized as an uncountably infinite set of points, no matter how large or small. Higher and lower-dimensional objects are just... arbitrarily large, and can really be of literally any size."

as it creates 3 dimensional objects by "slicing" higher dimension (3 dimensional l object instead of squares) , before this already would have assumed to be infinite but with the new tier system u can just reverse engineer that by considering the maximum size of a slice which would be universal
 
The Causality said:
@Maolx in the first place Ultima proposed to downgrade the verse due to the fact that the 11D aren't related to higher plane of existence but only spatial coordonate, those two aren't the same at all, all the quote of 11D in this thread and Lazy's blog involve axis dimension, that's no longer valid for tier 1, to quote the new tiering system
Click to expand...
In that case then can we call them something else please (I mean in the whole tiering system page too); something like planes instead of dimensions, because it's very easy to get confused, and this whole thread could've been concluded earlier had this confusion been spotted and cleared up in the beginning.
 
None of what you said really proves they are infinitly larger at all tough?

Any spatial dimension can be outside of the reality we can interact with, that is the point of being able to move in more than three dimensions.

That doesn't mean that removing that trajectory for debris makes it infinitely higher. It could be, but you can't assume that.
 
@Malox Curtana's feat is a feat of actually slicing to an Higher Plane of existence, that's prove that toaru's verse have more than Four Plane, whta i'm debating is, that what the Curtana cut isn't related to the 11 dimension mentioned because by nature they are completly different, i've said from the beginning that Curtana is a feat of higher plane of existence but it's not linked to the 11D stuff.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I don't think there's any confusion in this thread, Accel, quite the contrary.
Click to expand...
I'd disagree on that. Using higher dimensions as a name when the two most popular interpretations of the word dimension (alternate reality or spatial dimensions) don't fit tiering beyond tier 2 is confusing.
 
^Pretty much, i've used the word "Higher D" and people started to be confused due to the fact that Higher D can mean more than 4 dimension in the axis way or more than 4 plane of existence.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I don't think there's any confusion in this thread, Accel, quite the contrary.
Click to expand...
There is, because of the insistence on using the term "dimensions", when that is clearly not what is being referred to (by those proposing the downgrade). Toaru uses the real definition of dimensions, while the evidence for what was being requested in this thread was infinitely higher levels/planes of existence. That's not what dimensions are
 
The Causality said:
@Malox Curtana's feat is a feat of actually slicing to an Higher Plane of existence, that's prove that toaru's verse have more than Four Plane, whta i'm debating is, that what the Curtana cut isn't related to the 11 dimension mentioned because by nature they are completly different, i've said from the beginning that Curtana is a feat of higher plane of existence.
Click to expand...
so are u saying that only based on ur superior opinion that even if the author says dimension for both powers, 1 is different from the other ?

and when curtana says it cuts all dimensions it's wrong and it's only the 4th when they never say 4th dimension ?

u must have read all the novels very thoroughly to have come up with this revolutionary theory
 
So to be clair, what i'm saying from the beginning is that the 11 dimensional axis is no longer valid for being High 1-C because the new system now use the Higher Plane of existence interpretation to be tier 1 which the 11D stuff don't prove. But Curtana's feat seem prove an Higher plane of existence. Finally the verse will no longer be High 1-C but probably still in tier 1 thanks to Curtana's stuff.
 
I'd propose changing the name of the term used to qualify for beyond tier 2 rating into something else (like levels of infinity or simply planes).Because just calling them dimensions is bound to keep causing more confusion, especially for those who are not regulars of this site
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
None of what you said really proves they are infinitly larger at all tough?
Any spatial dimension can be outside of the reality we can interact with, that is the point of being able to move in more than three dimensions.

That doesn't mean that removing that trajectory for debris makes it infinitely higher. It could be, but you can't assume that.
Click to expand...
that's why i said it's not infinite just the maximum size of the dimensional slice
 
The Causality said:
So to be clair, what i'm saying from the beginning is that the 11 dimensional axis is no longer valid for being High 1-C because the new system now use the Higher Plane of existence interpretation to be tier 1 which the 11D stuff don't prove. But Curtana's feat seem prove an Higher plane of existence. Finally the verse will no longer be High 1-C but probably still in tier 1 thanks to Curtana's stuff.
Click to expand...
dude it's not about tier, here we are contradicting the novel if we says that they are different, as i said i don't care if it's down grade just don't make contradiction or missvisualize the cosmology, the universe is confusing enough as it uses a world system but with multiple possibilities and "frequency" of existence
 
The Causality said:
So to be clair, what i'm saying from the beginning is that the 11 dimensional axis is no longer valid for being High 1-C because the new system now use the Higher Plane of existence interpretation to be tier 1 which the 11D stuff don't prove. But Curtana's feat seem prove an Higher plane of existence. Finally the verse will no longer be High 1-C but probably still in tier 1 thanks to Curtana's stuff.
Click to expand...
That would make it Low 1-C then, since Curtana basically proves the existence of a 5th higher plane of infinity (what was previously being called dimension). The existence of higher dimensions (actual dimensions) or their sizes doesn't matter to Tier 1 now, am I wrong?
 
We can't be sure it's infinite did u even read the Ultima thread ? Just cause it has higher dimension it does not mean u can't calculate it , Ultima posted the video explaining that

The novel never stated that dimensions are infinite, only that the world is infinite
 
Malox1696 said:
dude it's not about tier, here we are contradicting the novel if we says that they are different, as i said i don't care if it's down grade just don't make contradiction or missvisualize the cosmology, the universe is confusing enough as it uses a world system but with multiple possibilities and "frequency" of existence
Click to expand...
Not really, because by definition, 'Dimension' can mean Higher plane of existence or Dimensional axis, here the verse use those interpretation of the world dimension, Higher plane with clarissa's cutting feats and Dimensional axis with the 11D esper Telmeportation. it's not contradicted, the word can mean both.
 
not when they are mentioned as conceptual same as the 11th dimension

"If what she was saying was true, that sword was a monstrous weapon that could cut right through dimensions which did exist but were more of a concept than anything"


and they even function similarly as teleportation cuts trough anything as the object has lag time between coming in and out of the 11th dimension and can actually be interfered too with specific abilities , and the object teleported takes priority
 
So just to clear some things up; given the new conditions for tier 1, what kinds of statements prove the exitence of the higher infinities, or the kinds of feats required to qualify for them? Is it simply being able to create/destroy a plane of existence that is infinitely higher than the 2-A multiverse to qualify for Low 1-C, and from there going another 7 to 9 planes of existence higher to qualify for normal 1-C, and 10 to 11 planes of existence higher than the normal multiverse to qualify for High 1-C, and so on?
 
I don't think being mentioned as Conceptual mean much here, same for your claim, I don't think this mean that the 11D are actually Higher Plane of existence.
 
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