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Regarding Sun Wukong (Journey to the West)'s Tier

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I will post the "infinite" as this seems to be the biggest problem. Infinite appears 54 times in the book.

Infinitely lucky 1

Infinitely mercy 2

Infinite Powers 3

Infinitely Murderous 1

Infinite are the transformation I have learned 2

Infinite Way 1

Infinite realms 1

Infinitely divine and miraculous 1

Infinitely deeper 1

Infinite Law 2

Treasure infinitely rare 1

Infinite capacity for transformation (Bodhisattva) 1

Mountain of Infinite Longevity 9

Infinitely long (life) 1

Infinite trouble (taken on on someone behalf) 1

Infinite beauty (of heaven) 1

Magic of infinite changes 1

Wisdom is infinitely 2

Infinite gratitude 1

Our Bodhisattva is an infinitely holy and good 1

Infinitely Sage Dragon King 4

Infinitely Sage Princess 5

Infinitely Sage Ancient Dragon 3

Infinitely Sage Dragon's palace 1

The infinite worlds 1

Infinite changes (cudgel) 1

Infinitely grateful 1

Dharma is infinite 1

Infinitely great act of kindness 1

Infinitely lovely 1

Infinitely many are the countries 1

Each infinite being said in the book. Most of the time is flowery language.


Doesn't matter if there are infinite realms if they aren't their own space-time. Without a clear statement of them being such no 2-A.
 
I will go through this later, but two things.

First of all, no constellation scaling. Ignore them fitting into a camp and holding blades, you cannot look me in the face and claim you believe that the constellations weren't the animals the constellations rapresented, but instead a set of massive burning gas stars as science understands it today.

And second, I remade the formatting. What came from you were links to quotes, and wording. I told you previously that I can't take the source code of others' blogs. I offered to change the wording, and you have previously agreed with the scans being used. I can't really offer you any more than that.

And once again, the argument that flowery language cannot be used is simply wrong. Dislike it all you wish, it is simply a thing that you will have to deal with.
 
Zara's points makes sense. Infinite seriously is abused on this novel, and considering most of the things it is used on, we can totally take it as flowery. And no Udl, we don't need an author telling us he's being flowery, that's not how it works on this site.
 
So what needs to be improved in the profile that is not related to Wukong's statistics?
 
Zaratthustra said:
I will post the "infinite" as this seems to be the biggest problem. Infinite appears 54 times in the book.

Infinitely lucky 1

Infinitely mercy 2

Infinite Powers 3

Infinitely Murderous 1

Infinite are the transformation I have learned 2

Infinite Way 1

Infinite realms 1

Infinitely divine and miraculous 1

Infinitely deeper 1

Infinite Law 2

Treasure infinitely rare 1

Infinite capacity for transformation (Bodhisattva) 1

Mountain of Infinite Longevity 9

Infinitely long (life) 1

Infinite trouble (taken on on someone behalf) 1

Infinite beauty (of heaven) 1

Magic of infinite changes 1

Wisdom is infinitely 2

Infinite gratitude 1

Our Bodhisattva is an infinitely holy and good 1

Infinitely Sage Dragon King 4

Infinitely Sage Princess 5

Infinitely Sage Ancient Dragon 3

Infinitely Sage Dragon's palace 1

The infinite worlds 1

Infinite changes (cudgel) 1

Infinitely grateful 1

Dharma is infinite 1

Infinitely great act of kindness 1

Infinitely lovely 1

Infinitely many are the countries 1

Each infinite being said in the book. Most of the time is flowery language.


Doesn't matter if there are infinite realms if they aren't their own space-time. Without a clear statement of them being such no 2-A.
Click to expand...
Luck statement, Touhou characters have a similar feat of having so much Luck it can never be reduced, so Infinite luck is fine.

Infinite Mercy is an inherently infinite resource, so to prove its flowery language pour me a cup of mercy.

Infinite powers is fine.

infinitely murderious is also fine, omnicidal could be used as well, again “murderiousness” is not a finite resource.

Infinite transformations is literally fine, I brought this up to disprove that the “72 Earthly transformations” was just 72.

Infinite Way (Infinite Dao) is literally from Buddha talking about the Jade Emperor, and if you know anything about Yu Huang Shang Ti, Infinite Dao is completely fine.

Infinite realms is fine again.

Infinitely Divine and Miraculous is fine again, again not a finite resource.

infinitely Deeper is the River, this just proves that the cosmology is High 3-A at the least.

The Infinite Law comes from Yu Huang IIRC, so it’s literally fine that the Law is infinite when it comes from a Transdual being.

Infinitely rare just means it’s 1/infinity.

Guanyin can transform into any shape or form, in Buddhist text she shows this by sometimes being a Man, sometimes being androgynous and other times being a woman.

Mountain of Infinite Longevity, obviously just means they live forever. This distinction is important as if you remember the peaches the gave you as many years as there were stars in the sky, another Sand in the Ganges etc.

Sometimes the immortality was limited to an extreme amount of time.

Infinite trouble can be used virtually any time someone is in trouble, I imagine if he is in trouble with a high member of the Celestial Bureaucracy it would literally be Infinite Trouble.

Beauty is not a finite resource again and is even more so subjective.

In an infinite Universe infinite changes goes on even if it is the real world, as we have virtual particles coming into existence everywhere and dying again.

Buddhas and Bodhisattva are considered to be infinitely holy because they are the highest of all holy beings in Buddhism, even Deva, Heavenly Beings are below Buddhas and Bodhisattva.

Infinite Sage is their title.

Infinite Worlds still proves High 3-A, Low 2-C as Heaven is a separate Time-Space.

Infinite gratitude just means they will never run out of gratitude for their saviour.

Dharma is obvious for those who know about Buddhism.

Infinitely lovely, again, fine, lovely is not a finite resource.

Infinitely many countries again proves that the world is High 3-A
 
To summarize my previous post, this is a text from a Culture virtually alien to most, to be honest, I'm very convinced that most people who are trying to do the Sun Wukong CRT haven't even read the book and are relying on the knowledge those of us who have read the book.

I believe the manner of which we are trying to critique the book is ill suited for texts from not only the past but of a different culture, and if it must come down to it, I'd rather see if removed entirely than allow for it to be incorrectly used because we are approaching the text incorrectly.

I was shown this by the demand that I get a statement that there's different Time-Spaces. A concept which has been around, what? 100 years? For a book half a millenia old, showing the way that the book is being criticised is not within the context of a 15th century Buddhist and Daoist perspective, as it was meant to be viewed, but in a Modern perspective which is incongruous with how we should approach it.

In short, the standards of which we are putting this book to is unreasonable for the timeframe of when it was made, the system we currently use and the mindset of those who apply is it woefully ill equipped to handle the book, which yes, includes myself, I've read Sutras and Mantras, I'm actively reading the Karandavyuha Sutra and I don't think I have the tools to properly tackle the text as it by right deserves.
 
Udlmaster said:
To summarize my previous post, this is a text from a Culture virtually alien to most, to be honest, I'm very convinced that most people who are trying to do the Sun Wukong CRT haven't even read the book and are relying on the knowledge those of us who have read the book.

I believe the manner of which we are trying to critique the book is ill suited for texts from not only the past but of a different culture, and if it must come down to it, I'd rather see if removed entirely than allow for it to be incorrectly used because we are approaching the text incorrectly.

I was shown this by the demand that I get a statement that there's different Time-Spaces. A concept which has been around, what? 100 years? For a book half a millenia old, showing the way that the book is being criticised is not within the context of a 15th century Buddhist and Daoist perspective, as it was meant to be viewed, but in a Modern perspective which is incongruous with how we should approach it.
Click to expand...
Agreed
 
That's the situation that favors some verses, while others aren't favored. Like Ultima said once for another verse "either you somehow make it work on the system, or you can only use what work". Our tiering system is made on dimensionality thus rendering some verses's statements/feats not usable.
 
Then, I imagine, if the square doesn't fit into the circular hole, we stop trying. Because we're going to have the morph the "square" into something it's simply not to get it to fit.
 
Udlmaster said:
To summarize my previous post, this is a text from a Culture virtually alien to most, to be honest, I'm very convinced that most people who are trying to do the Sun Wukong CRT haven't even read the book and are relying on the knowledge those of us who have read the book.

I believe the manner of which we are trying to critique the book is ill suited for texts from not only the past but of a different culture, and if it must come down to it, I'd rather see if removed entirely than allow for it to be incorrectly used because we are approaching the text incorrectly.

I was shown this by the demand that I get a statement that there's different Time-Spaces. A concept which has been around, what? 100 years? For a book half a millenia old, showing the way that the book is being criticised is not within the context of a 15th century Buddhist and Daoist perspective, as it was meant to be viewed, but in a Modern perspective which is incongruous with how we should approach it.

In short, the standards of which we are putting this book to is unreasonable for the timeframe of when it was made, the system we currently use and the mindset of those who apply is it woefully ill equipped to handle the book, which yes, includes myself, I've read Sutras and Mantras, I'm actively reading the Karandavyuha Sutra and I don't think I have the tools to properly tackle the text as it by right deserves.
Click to expand...
You're right.
 
It's not like the standards are just so alien that nothing can be done.

But things like trying to say a Constellation is 4-B is obviously wrong. In no way can you argue they are actually gas giants, and that's done even for modern verses, this time it is simply far more blatant.

Not being a Shonen doesn't mean something can't be clear about how things work. This simply isn't. It doesn't have any actual feats.

Unless you belive "Flowery Language exists" is the massive incompatibility? That is ridicolous. You didn't even try to respond to why the weapon having infinite bloodlust makes sense, and your take away from monkey saying "chill out, we are free from laws, we're infinitely lucky" is that they are literally infinitely lucky out of nowhere.

Even when they were around, Mythology was beholden to flowery language as well. Dante's hell and the Odyssey both hold a lot of flowery language themselves.


Because unsurprisingly, literature and poems so indeed attempt to sound literate and poetic to make their descriptions of things, beings and events sound beautiful.
 
The difference is Taoism(Daoism) and Buddhism take flowery languages literally in a serious sense. Just name any phrase or sentence from any old Buddhist or Taoist(Daoist) teachings or scriptures that doesn't make use of flowery languages because they all do since it has deeper meanings and potentials in it.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
But things like trying to say a Constellation is 4-B is obviously wrong. In no way can you argue they are actually gas giants, and that's done even for modern verses, this time it is simply far more blatant.
Click to expand...
This is what i am talking about. The context of which the Stars are used here are taken from the perspective that they are from someone who doesn't know that Constellations are not as big as they really but, you don't take that view on anything else.

This is obviously inconsistent application. Either it's from a Modern perspective, where you demand statements about concepts that had yet to even come into existence, or its from a 16th Century Buddhist-Daoist perspective, you cannot inconsistently have both.

Ricsi-viragosi said:
you didn't even try to respond to why the weapon having infinite bloodlust makes sense
Click to expand...
It just means the weapon enjoys being violent, just infinitely so. And since this is a fiction, might I add you may want to consider that before making some arbitrary notion of what it can and cannot do based on your own subjective qualifiers which have no value here.
Ricsi-viragosi said:
is that they are literally infinitely lucky out of nowhere.
Click to expand...
But it's not "out of nowhere" is it? It's directly from the Monkey's mouth. Who are you to say Wukong is wrong? Not even going into the fact that, yes, they can be Infinitely lucky, it's to do with Merit and Karma. Again, you obviously don't know what you're talking about.
 
Udlmaster said:
This is what i am talking about. The context of which the Stars are used here are taken from the perspective that they are from someone who doesn't know that Constellations are not as big as they really but, you don't take that view on anything else.

This is obviously inconsistent application. Either it's from a Modern perspective, where you demand statements about concepts that had yet to even come into existence, or its from a 16th Century Buddhist-Daoist perspective, you cannot inconsistently have both.


It just means the weapon enjoys being violent, just infinitely so. And since this is a fiction, might I add you may want to consider that before making some arbitrary notion of what it can and cannot do based on your own subjective qualifiers which have no value here.

But it's not "out of nowhere" is it? It's directly from the Monkey's mouth. Who are you to say Wukong is wrong? Not even going into the fact that, yes, they can be Infinitely lucky, it's to do with Merit and Karma. Again, you obviously don't know what you're talking about.
Click to expand...
Agreed 👍
 
I think I'm unfamiliar with Sun Wukong, but from the small glimpses I've heard, I don't think existing beyond space-time is an AP/dura feat, and I don't think that Journey to the West should scale to outside texts.

Anything else about this, like what tier to place him at without this feat, I cannot help with.
 
Agnaa said:
I think I'm unfamiliar with Sun Wukong, but from the small glimpses I've heard, I don't think existing beyond space-time is an AP/dura feat, and I don't think that Journey to the West should scale to outside texts.

Anything else about this, like what tier to place him at without this feat, I cannot help with.
Click to expand...
His AP scales to pangu's universe creation feat
 
Well, I know literally nothing about that, so I'll dip out then.
 
But however as for all the things involving ♾️.

Practically all Buddhists and Taoists alike take these things seriously tho. Their flowery language always has been taken literally within their society.
 
Greatsage13th said:
Practically all Buddhists and Taoists alike take these things seriously tho. Their flowery language always has been taken literally within their society.
Click to expand...
Whatever the religion's practices are is irrelevant, what matters is what's actually shown in the book, and it definitely doesn't use infinity literally seeing how many different things are called infinite for little to no reason.
 
Ionliosite said:
Whatever the religion's practices are is irrelevant, what matters is what's actually shown in the book, and it definitely doesn't use infinity literally seeing how many different things are called infinite for little to no reason.
Click to expand...
We were suppose to look from the author's prespective.
 
The argument “We’re an indexing site so ignore the whys and how’s of the text and it’s proper meaning” is such a horribly vapid excuse that I’m shocked more than one person made that argument.

If the Author does not think these statements are symbolic/not literal, then they are literal.

Your argument is based upon the perspective of the Author, because what is and is not Flowery language is dictated by the Author, you cannot have your cake and eat it.

Either: you proclaim flowery language, therefore making a positive claim about the perspective of the author and their intent, at which point we’ve proven that this interpretation is wrong.

Or you claim that author intent and perspective on their work is irrelevant at which point the argument for Flowery language dies because it is predicated on author intent.

Pick one.
 
Nice straw man, you clearly don't understand how flowery language works if you keep claiming only the author can decide it.
 
Flowery language has been used for the novel all the way till the end of the novel so how are you suppose to deal with it when 99% of it is composed of flowery language?
 
Ionliosite said:
Nice straw man, you clearly don't understand how flowery language works if you keep claiming only the author can decide it.
Click to expand...
Okay, Flowery Language means that it is not meant to be literal.

Who chooses what it meant to be literal or not in their works? The author.

Even with Death of the Author, this just means that what the author says about the work after it’s released doesn’t matter, not what their intents while writing the work.

Also you seemed to post a very empty response, saying “No it’s not” is not a valid response at all.
 
Should I ask a few administrators/sysops to help us out here?
 
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