Deleting the Sun Wukong profile

[Ellbekarym]

I didnt said that it does, I said that it gets the concept and entire texts

That's not the point. I'll give an example, which will also answer much of what's below.

Let's say I create a fictional cosmogony.

At the bottom are the Greek gods. I cite the Illiad, the Odyssey and the Theogony as sources.
But the Greek gods are only small administrators. Above them is their creator, Allah, lord of the universe. I quote the Koran as a source.
But Allah is not the lord of all. He is the master of a universe, and there are as many universes as there are grains of sand in the Ganges, and above all these Gods, there are the Buddhas and the Bodhistattvas. I quote sutras as sources.
But these Buddhas are only the manifestation of the Brahaman. I quote the Bhagavad-Gita as a source.
But Brahman is only the lowest stage of the Essential Divinity of Kabbalah. I cite the Zohar as my source.

I've done my little cooking by telescoping a bit of all the modern religious metaphysics. It's a bit tendentious, but it passes. Why? Because the story does not fit into any religious paradigm. My Allah, although he shares the name, although he shares the iconography, although he is based on excerpts from the Koran, is not the real Allah, because the real Allah does not share the Greek gods and is not subservient to the Buddhas. The Buddhas are not the manifestation of Brahman and Brahman is not a stage of Kabbalistic divinity. It is a major distortion of the different deities, since they have been taken out of their initial framework to be placed in another. The similarity is only iconographic, not theological. This hypothetical work, although it contains various religious elements, is not religious precisely because no religion contains all these elements. It is neither a Christian work, nor a Buddhist work, nor a paganist-Greek work.

But JTTW does not take its Buddhist and Taoist deities out of their Buddhist and Taoist framework. The deities retain their iconography, their theology, their cosmology. JTTW is a Buddhist and Taoist work.

Now, let's say that in the 16th century another work is created. Let's say the Journey to the East. It tells the story of Brigid who leaves Breatgne in search of the lost gospels. She travels through Europe in the direction of Palestine and of course the Devil and many other demons from Christian folklore stand in her way. But she fights them all off. Several times she meets the Virgin Mary and they have discussions about the nature of God, the Trinity and the Holiness. Passages from the Bible, the Summa Theologiae, the Confessions, the encyclicals and the Catechism of the Catholic Church are expressly quoted and commented on. Moreover, the author of the book is Catholic and addresses a Catholic audience. Then she arrives in Palestine where Jesus appears to her. After many adventures, Brigid becomes a Saint herself and returns to the Kingdom of Heaven. And thereafter (and even before in reality, since the author did not invent the character of Brigid, which comes from folklore) Saint Brigid will be venerated indeed. Her day is February 1st.

And that now you are profiling Brigid (JTTE) and, why not, Jesus (JTTE). Do you see the problem?

Because yes, indeed, Sun Wukong is actually venerated. See the end.

I guess this means we have to delete God of Highschool since it's based on like 20 different religions and the MC is Sun Wukong

From what I said above, no.

I believe deleting the profile to be incredibly unnecessary. Many verses take heavy inspiration from religion.

Castlevania is quite literally the story of a man trying to get revenge on a Christian God, and it uses multiple beings from Christianity.

The Nasuverse, namely Fate, is well known for relatively very faithful retellings of mythology and even modern religion. The literal Buddah is one of the characters we have a profile for, and others are individuals heavily associated with Christianity or even beings taken directly from the bible.

Some of the most prevalent characters in the SCP Foundation are literal, non-figurative, actual, biblical Cain and Able.

Lucifer Morningstar (DC Comics). Just Lucifer Morningstar (DC Comics).

Hell, even the lore of Puyo ************* Puyo takes heavily from the bible, Satan originally being an angel known as Lucifer and having lost his wings due to questioning The Creator (An obvious stand in for God).

The Tao of Pooh is a book that exists, but we aren't deleting Winnie the Pooh's profile over it.

I'm not going to do them all. I repeat, would the hypothetical profile of Satant (IRL) be equivalent to the profile of Lucifer (DC)? No. God did not create two opposing principles, one of which would be Lucifer. The central element of DC is not the death and resurrection of Christ. The goal of the DC characters is not holiness or the kingdom of heaven. The cosmology is not a Christian cosmology. What is the goal of the JTTW characters? Enlightenment, aka Buddhist soteriology. What is their cosmology? A Buddhist/Taoistic cosmology.

Fate. Is the goal of the characters in Fate bodhi? No. Is Buddha the supreme entity of Fate? No. Does the cosmology contain Buddhist elements? Yes. Is it a Buddhist cosmology? No. Is the cosmology of JTTW a Buddhist cosmology? Yes.

SCP. Is it a Christian cosmology? No. Is the most important thing in the universe the death and resurrection of Christ? No. Is the goal the Kingdom of Heaven? No. Is the supreme entity God (as imagined by Christians)? No.

The fact is, Journey to the West is a story based on a religion, not a religious text. And if we ban it, that sets a genuinely dangerous precedent for other verses.

It is the opposite. It is the precedent. JTTW is a religious text.

And going with the argument the OP presented that removing Wukong's first two keys and then changing the profile's name would result in a religious figure, no matter how faithful to the original religion the writer tries to be, there are always going to be minor or major differences from if we theoretically made a profile for said figure.

Could not disagree with the OP more.

Indeed. Religious figures are all polymorphous. The Catholic Jesus is not the Jehovah's Witness Jesus. The Mahayana Buddha (the one from JTTW) is not the Theravada Buddha. So whatever the religious figure is, any description will not capture it fully because it is impossible to capture it fully. But this is normal. And this is not a counter argument.

While it is heavily influenced by Taoism and Buddhism, it's still merely an adaptation rather than the actual religious folklore itself. So I agree with the others and disagree with the deletion FRA.

Yes, my point is that it is indeed the "actual religious folklore itself". Think about it. What more would you have to do to make it folklore?

Disagree FRA. You can also add Touhou Project to the list of verses heavily reliant on real world religious beliefs. The series can't go 20 seconds without referring to some god or concept in Shinto, Buddhism, or Taoism. At this point you may as well suggest the deletion of half the wiki.

Perhaps the best religious reference in Touhou is this, though.

No doubt. Is the goal of Touhou bodhi? Well, I'm not going to do it all again. Read above. The reference does not make the similarity.

This tbh.

Same for Shin Megami Tensei. But go on. You'll inevitably end up challenging me with a verse I don't know, so I can't say "it doesn't work".

That's actually extremely common, you know how often a work will just have "God" roll up, intended to be God, and what not? If we're talking intent, the intent is for these figures to BE the figures they're drawing from not "similar dude but same name and lore".
To use JoJo for example because I **** with that, LITERALLY has Jesus Christ as a pivotal character, yes, Jesus, we see him carry the cross, get nailed, die, even have his body cleaned by Joseph, roll up and **** off after leaving the cave after a few days and so on, he's also visually, if not the same, as most common depictions of him. Even some famous art commonly seen in churches is copy pasted into the manga.

Jojo's purpose is not to reach the Kingdom of Heaven. It is not a Christian religious text. Jojo's story is not about a guy who gets slapped by Dio Brando and turns the other cheek because you shouldn't resist the wicked.

Literally Jesus is a critical part of JoJo lore, 100% intended to be Jesus, and it's actually pretty close in terms of how his history lines up with the biblical depiction (in that it's identical up to modern day, where he's just a corpse and the main plot of the part is gathering his dead carcass).
We aren't deleting the most based JoJo part tho, because while, contextually it IS Jesus, it's still merely an adaption and drawing from the religious events, like, think of it how Hitler is commonly utilized in war games and sometimes even developed further (SMT, Wolfenstein, etc), it's literally meant to be Hitler, but it's still just a adaption.

Yes, I used Hitler to corroborate a point about Jesus, don't @ me.

Hitler existed. That is a historical fact. Siddhartha Gautama is a Buddha and the goal of existence is to become one. That is a religious doctrine.

That is the difference. On the other hand, if a verse about Hitler were to be removed it would be for apology of Nazism and nothing else, not representing Hitler per se. I don't know what jurisdiction applies to VSBattle on this.

Yeah, like everyone else, disagree with the premise of the thread. Unless JttW used external text as evidence or it described itself as a religious text then it's fine.

I'm glad you said that. First, JTTW uses "external text as evidence". Plenty. He invokes real sutras. He quotes the Heart Sutra.

But more to the point, it itself is considered a religious text. This was suggested yesterday, I checked, it's true. Sung Wukong is revered as a god, and this reverence considers de facto JTTW as a primary source aka a religious text.

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Last updated: 09-03-2022 I’ve written several articles on the worship of the Monkey King. I’ve decided to post a succinct overview for those not familiar with the subject. Unless cited …

journeytothewestresearch.com

The Worship of Sun Wukong in Wanfu Temple: Initial Findings

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The Sun Wukong Cult in Fujian

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journeytothewestresearch.com

I'm putting the most decisive excerpts here. I encourage you to read everything, and there are some cool videos.

Sun Wukong is worshiped in southern China, Taiwan, and areas of Southeast Asia, including Malaysia, Singapore, and even Thailand and Vietnam, as the “Great Sage Equaling Heaven” (Qitian dasheng, 齊天大聖) (fig. 1). Variations of this title often include “Lord” (ye, 爺) or “Buddha Patriarch” (fozu, 佛祖) (e.g. Dasheng ye, 大聖爺; Dasheng fozu, 大聖佛祖). He is very rarely addressed as the “Victorious Fighting Buddha” (Dou zhansheng fo, 鬥戰勝佛), which is taken from the end of Journey to the West (1592) when our hero is bestowed Buddhahood for protecting the monk Tripitaka. This is the name of a real world deity (and member of the 35 Confession Buddhas) that was only later associated with Monkey in literature. I’ve even seen one temple that mixed such titles to call him the “Fighting Sage Buddha” (Dou zhan sheng fo, 鬥戰聖佛).
While considered a full-fledged god or even Buddha, the Great Sage is not a supreme deity. In fact, Buddho-Daoist folk religion considers him to be an intermediary for higher-ranking figures. For example, in most traditions he is a subordinate of the Bodhisattva Guanyin. [1] One temple in Taiwan even believes he answers to the martial god Guan Yu. Either way, he is considered the exorcist par excellence and a protector of children. The little ones whom he takes as his godchildren are known in Singapore as “dedicated children” (khoe-kia). Those under his protection are believed to grow up to become well-behaved adults.

Emperors who officially recognized gods helped make them more popular or at least better known. [1] But, as Shahar (1996) explains, the state’s involvement rarely went beyond building temples and making offerings. Oral tales and popular novels were largely responsible for spreading the myth of a particular deity (p. 185). He continues: "In some cases the novel’s transformation of its divine protagonist was so profound, and its impact on the shape of its cult so great, that the novelist could be considered the deity’s creator. A notable example is Sun Wukong. The cult of this divine monkey in late imperial times cannot be separated from his image as shaped by the successive Journey to the West novels. In this respect he is indeed their author’s creation, and Pu Songling‘s complaint, voiced through his protagonist Xu Sheng [許盛], is justified: “Sun Wukong is nothing but a parable invented by [the novelist] Old Qiu [老丘]. [2] How can people sincerely believe in him?” (Shahar, 1996, pp. 193-194)."

You literally have literati complaining that the little people worship a god "out of literature". Of course, the cult of Sun Wukong is much older than JTTW, since the author of the novel himself bases it on. Simply, as it often happens, a work based on existing deities influences the perception of these deities to the point of becoming the new canon. Similar to the Illiad, for example.

In other words: the Sun Wukong JTTW profile is a deity. He is worshipped as such. The work is a Buddhist/Taoist work, containing Buddhist/Taoist deities, "creating" Buddhist/Taoist deities to add to the already existing pantheon.

I think that one cannot be clearer.

As a result, I request that the profile be deleted.

 

[Ellbekarym]

Tbh as long the profile does not provoke any major wiki staff, anything should be fine. My only concern is if someone do false report to staff wiki fandom that we indexing controversial stuff or something.

But don't worry, I'll report to staff wiki. Tomorrow, maybe.

 

[Confluctor]

?

 

[Bernkastelll]

But don't worry, I'll report to staff wiki. Tomorrow, maybe.

 

[Ellbekarym]

?

I'm going to wait for a little more discussion anyway. I'm not a monster.

 

[Planck69]

I'm glad you said that. First, JTTW uses "external text as evidence". Plenty. He invokes real sutras. He quotes the Heart Sutra.

But more to the point, it itself is considered a religious text. This was suggested yesterday, I checked, it's true. Sung Wukong is revered as a god, and this reverence considers de facto JTTW as a primary source aka a religious text.

I'm putting the most decisive excerpts here. I encourage you to read everything, and there are some cool videos.

You literally have literati complaining that the little people worship a god "out of literature". Of course, the cult of Sun Wukong is much older than JTTW, since the author of the novel himself bases it on. Simply, as it often happens, a work based on existing deities influences the perception of these deities to the point of becoming the new canon. Similar to the Illiad, for example.

In other words: the Sun Wukong JTTW profile is a deity. He is worshipped as such. The work is a Buddhist/Taoist work, containing Buddhist/Taoist deities, "creating" Buddhist/Taoist deities to add to the already existing pantheon.

I think that one cannot be clearer.

As a result, I request that the profile be deleted.

All of those quotes are taken from the novel itself as far as I'm aware. Whether or not the novel takes them word for word from actual texts is another matter and quite frankly one we couldn't care less about. Of course, if you can cite out these excepts that are exclusive to the Sutra and not repeated at all in the novel then be my guest, that would help the accuracy of the profile.

As for whether or not Sun Wukong is worshipped, quite frankly that depends on the novel itself and whether or not it considers itself fictional or not. If it does not and the writer provably made it with the intent of being a religious source on the same vein as the Bible then sure, you'd have a decent argument for its deletion. Else you likely have a Paradise Lost or Dante's Divine Comedy situation where a material just popular enough to shape religious views, despite being "extra-canonical" in a sense.

 

[Ellbekarym]

All of those quotes are taken from the novel itself as far as I'm aware. Whether or not the novel takes them word for word from actual texts is another matter and quite frankly one we couldn't care less about.

Nope. I care.


Besides, it is completely extravagant. JTTW calls directly to the "Dharma" i.e. to the whole sutras (besides naming some in particular). This is literally including the whole of Buddhism (Mahayana) but it is not important because he says it explicitly? Again, this is to consider that Chinese Buddhism is perceived as a priori false for the author and for the public of the time, which is not the reality.

As for whether or not Sun Wukong is worshipped, quite frankly that depends on the novel itself and whether or not it considers itself fictional or not.

The author certainly did not conceive the character of Guanyin as fictional, and the philosophical statements as false. It is on the same level as the Platonic dialogues. The dialogues most likely never took place but Plato obviously considered his doctrine to be true. Here you literally have a cult of Sun Wukong based on the character of JTTW and that's not enough for you? Actually, I think I'll dispense with the discussion after all.

Because, as far as we are concerned, if we were to discover tomorrow that the evangelists were jolly jokers and that they didn't believe a word they wrote, it wouldn't change the religious character of the Gospels.

If it does not and the writer provably made it with the intent of being a religious source on the same vein as the Bible then sure, you'd have a decent argument for its deletion. Else you likely have a Paradise Lost or Dante's Divine Comedy situation where a material just popular enough to shape religious views, despite being "extra-canonical" in a sense.

This is fortunate, because there are no profiles of Paradise Lost and Dante on this wiki, and according to what was said above, they were expressly refused.

 

[Planck69]

Nope. I care.


Besides, it is completely extravagant. JTTW calls directly to the "Dharma" i.e. to the whole sutras (besides naming some in particular). This is literally including the whole of Buddhism (Mahayana) but it is not important because he says it explicitly? Again, this is to consider that Chinese Buddhism is perceived as a priori false for the author and for the public of the time, which is not the reality.



The author certainly did not conceive the character of Guanyin as fictional, and the philosophical statements as false. It is on the same level as the Platonic dialogues. The dialogues most likely never took place but Plato obviously considered his doctrine to be true. Here you literally have a cult of Sun Wukong based on the character of JTTW and that's not enough for you? Actually, I think I'll dispense with the discussion after all.

Because, as far as we are concerned, if we were to discover tomorrow that the evangelists were jolly jokers and that they didn't believe a word they wrote, it wouldn't change the religious character of the Gospels.



This is fortunate, because there are no profiles of Paradise Lost and Dante on this wiki, and according to what was said above, they were expressly refused.

He can dedicate entire chapters to verbatim quotation of the religious texts. It wouldn't matter as long as the work is self acknowledged as fictional and not some canon texts. Reference to Dharma or anything slese wouldn't matter as far as its viability as a profile goes.

Whether or not there's an actual cult or religion these characters come from, again doesn't matter on the site. There are verses that are explicitly using Christian theology as their framework. So long as it's something made by an independent author, it wouldn't matter. So I dunno what that comparison to evangelists is supposed to prove.

As for the Comedy and Paradise Lost, frankly that's why I'd prefer a thread be made on religion based works in general brfore this one is settled since that's honestly the only proper contention presented here.

 

[Ellbekarym]

He can dedicate entire chapters to verbatim quotation of the religious texts. It wouldn't matter as long as the work is self acknowledged as fictional and not some canon texts. Reference to Dharma or anything slese wouldn't matter as far as its viability as a profile goes.

Whether or not there's an actual cult or religion these characters come from, again doesn't matter on the site.

I don't think so. That makes it a religious text. Otherwise what is a religious text? I don't think the text is trivially recognized as fiction. Not by its author (as far as Buddhist metaphysics is concerned). Not by its audience of traditional Chinese religion. To profile Sun Wukong is to profile a Christian saint. There is no difference.

There are verses that are explicitly using Christian theology as their framework.

I explained that this was not the problem. JTTW does not use Buddhist theology to build his cosmology, it is Buddhist cosmology.

Also, I am not aware of any Christians who include works of "fiction" in their beliefs. Except, perhaps, the Divine Comedy.

So long as it's something made by an independent author, it wouldn't matter. So I dunno what that comparison to evangelists is supposed to prove.

An independent author? The example of the evangelists shows that if a text is at the origin of a religious practice, then it is a religious text. And don't give me obscure examples like "jedaism so Star Wars is religious". Besides, again I repeat myself, the author of JTTW does not think that the ideas he exposes are false.

As for the Comedy and Paradise Lost, frankly that's why I'd prefer a thread be made on religion based works in general brfore this one is settled since that's honestly the only proper contention presented here.

No. It is independent of the Divine Comedy. To tell the truth I would not object if there were Milton or Dante, the authors make much more obvious distortions and inventions. But, in this case, Milton and Dante constitute a stronger restriction than the one I am invoking so it serves my purpose.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally agree with the people who argue for keeping the profile page in question. We took care to only draw upon the JttW work itself, not any religious scriptures.

Other fictions, such as Shin Megami Tensei, have also portrayed the Christian monoteistic God in a very derogatory manner, and we still feature these portrayals as pages anyway.

 

[Ellbekarym]

I personally agree with the people who argue for keeping the profile page in question. We took care to only draw upon the JttW work itself, not any religious scriptures.

Other fictions, such as Shin Megami Tensei, have also portrayed the Christian monoteistic God in a very derogatory manner, and we still feature these portrayals as pages anyway.

I will only repeat myself. The fact that Shin Megami Tensei describes God in a "very derogatory manner" is precisely an argument for keeping the Yhwh of Shin Megami Tensei. Because JTTW does not describe Guanyin in a "very derogatory manner" but in a very orthodox manner and that is the problem. The author of JTTW, in his mind, is talking about the real Guanyin and Sun Wukong is revered as the servant of the real Guanyin.

SMT is not a Christian work. Its metaphysics is not Christian. Its cosmology is not Christian. SMT's Yhwh is not worshipped by real people as a true God and SMT's influence on the Christian religion is non-existent.

JTTW is a Buddhist/Taoist work. Its metaphysics is Buddhist/Taoist. Its cosmology is Buddhist/Taoist. JTTW's Sun Wukong is worshipped by real people as a real god and JTTW's influence on traditional Chinese religion is significant.

Moreover, it is a repetition again, but to put in the work itself eminently religious scriptures is not enough to escape by drawing on religious sources.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I personally agree with the people who argue for keeping the profile page in question. We took care to only draw upon the JttW work itself, not any religious scriptures.

Other fictions, such as Shin Megami Tensei, have also portrayed the Christian monoteistic God in a very derogatory manner, and we still feature these portrayals as pages anyway.

Maybe this thread can be locked now?

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe this thread can be locked now?

It seems like the suggestion has been thoroughly rejected at least.

 

[Greatsage13th]

It seems like the suggestion has been thoroughly rejected at least.

Yes, but the op still insists on deleting the profile.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, but if nobody agrees with him, including staff members, there isn't really much to do regarding the issue.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Yes, but if nobody agrees with him, including staff members, there isn't really much to do regarding the issue.

I see

 

[Deceived3596]

Literal hall monitor level behaviour.

Completely disagree given Planck's reasoning.

 

[The_Impress]

OP's argument is that Journey to the West is still treated as factual within multiple religious sects, from what I'm able to tell. That can be grounds for the file's deletion.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we already had very extensive discussions about that subject previously, and then spent massive amounts of time to make the page as good as possible, so the topic seems to have been handled already, and it would be a shame to have wasted all of that work.

 

[Greatsage13th]

OP's argument is that Journey to the West is still treated as factual within multiple religious sects, from what I'm able to tell. That can be grounds for the file's deletion.

Nah, it's not enough to warrant deletion.

 

[The_Impress]

Meh, do we have like, any other 3rd party buddhism enthusiasts?

I know it's alot of work but still, if it has the potential to offend directly, don't think it should be kept.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that @Udlmaster is interested in Journey to the West.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Meh, do we have like, any other 3rd party buddhism enthusiasts?

I know it's alot of work but still, if it has the potential to offend directly, don't think it should be kept.

I'm a Buddhist and I had not the slightest feeling of being offended by it.

 

[Ellbekarym]

OP's argument is that Journey to the West is still treated as factual within multiple religious sects, from what I'm able to tell. That can be grounds for the file's deletion.

Absolutely.

I see that many are eager to close the debate without having to answer the arguments which are:

• Sun Wukong is worshipped as a true deity (based on JTTW)
• The religious principles of JTTW are not treated as fiction.

Nah, it's not enough to warrant deletion.

Representing a deity is not a reason to delete? Remind me why we are not allowed to make a page about Jesus?

Well, we already had very extensive discussions about that subject previously, and then spent massive amounts of time to make the page as good as possible, so the topic seems to have been handled already, and it would be a shame to have wasted all of that work.

I've looked through the topic, I didn't find a "very extensive discussion" on the points I raised. The discussion was mainly focused on the realization of the profile.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Representing a deity is not a reason to delete? Remind me why we are not allowed to make a page about Jesus?

we have thousand of pages about Jesus, a different case would be passion of the christ

 

[Greatsage13th]

Absolutely.

I see that many are eager to close the debate without having to answer the arguments which are:

• Sun Wukong is worshipped as a true deity (based on JTTW)
• The religious principles of JTTW are not treated as fiction.

Representing a deity is not a reason to delete? Remind me why we are not allowed to make a page about Jesus?



I've looked through the topic, I didn't find a "very extensive discussion" on the points I raised. The discussion was mainly focused on the realization of the profile.

Than I suppose Feng Shen Bang profiles aren't allowed eh?

 

[The_Impress]

I'm a Buddhist and I had not the slightest feeling of being offended by it.

Less so asking personal offense, moreso do you know anyone who can be offended by it? Or are the number of people treating it to be factual extremely low and chances to offend are negligible?

 

[Ellbekarym]

we have thousand of pages about Jesus, a different case would be passion of the christ

I'm tired of this argument over and over. I've responded to every "Jesus" I've been told.

Than I suppose Feng Shen Bang profiles aren't allowed eh?

Is Feng Shen Bang a real deity?

 

[azontr]

If representing a deity is grounds for deletion then you may as well delete literal entire verses that represent actual, literal deities that are worshipped IRL. SMT, Record of Ragnarok, God of Highschool, the list goes on. So long as it isn't the actual religious representation and just a fictional parody, which JttW is, as it is a novel based on Buddhism, not an actual Buddhist text, then I don't see a problem at all.

 

[Ellbekarym]

If representing a deity is grounds for deletion then you may as well delete literal entire verses that represent actual, literal deities that are worshipped IRL. SMT, Record of Ragnarok, God of Highschool, the list goes on. So long as it isn't the actual religious representation and just a fictional parody, which JttW is, as it is a novel based on Buddhism, not an actual Buddhist text, then I don't see a problem at all.

I'm going to ask you to read the thread before responding, please.

 

[Antvasima]

I've looked through the topic, I didn't find a "very extensive discussion" on the points I raised. The discussion was mainly focused on the realization of the profile.

We talked about it repeatedly over the years.

 

[The_Impress]

I think people are slightly confused at the crux of argument rn, notion is that, JttW itself is treated as a factual text by an unspecified number of people.

It's no longer just about representation rn, we have to to figure out if there is a substantial enough following to be considered offensive by relevant majority

 

[Greatsage13th]

Less so asking personal offense, moreso do you know anyone who can be offended by it? Or are the number of people treating it to be factual extremely low and chances to offend are negligible?

No, Very negligeable.

 

[Ellbekarym]

We talked about it repeatedly over the years.

Over the years, I agree. This discussion has been going on for a long time. And I don't think this year's thread answers it.

 

[azontr]

If that's the case then where is the evidence that JttW is actually treated as religious fact by some "unspecified" number of people? I don't ever remember it being treated as anything beyond a novel and I'd like some proof that it is.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I think people are slightly confused at the crux of argument rn, notion is that, JttW itself is treated as a factual text by an unspecified number of people.

But it's no Bible.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Is Feng Shen Bang a real deity?

No, it's a book that contains a story revolving around the fall of shang that includes numerous Buddhist and Taoist deities and immortals

 

[The_Impress]

No, Very negligeable.

K, so abit more input regarding this and we can draw a consensus.

 

[Ellbekarym]

I think people are slightly confused at the crux of argument rn, notion is that, JttW itself is treated as a factual text by an unspecified number of people.

This is an argument, but it is not the most important one. The most important thing is that some deities are not treated as fiction by the author.

But it's no Bible.

This is not the Bible. But Buddhas are as basic as God, and we have a de facto tiering (false, but that's not the point) for all Buddhas.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I'ma sleep, I'll see y'all tomorrow