Deleting the Sun Wukong profile

[The_Impress]

This is an argument, but it is not the most important one. The most important thing is that some deities are not treated as fiction by the author.

That's irrelevant. You can be a Christian and write about God, and you can be a hindu and write about Shiv.

This is kind of a dated notion of heresy I feel, other argument is the only relevant one.

 

[azontr]

If that's the case then where is the evidence that JttW is actually treated as religious fact by some "unspecified" number of people? I don't ever remember it being treated as anything beyond a novel and I'd like some proof that it is.

Gonna respond to this, homie?

 

[Ellbekarym]

No, it's a book that contains a story revolving around the fall of shang that includes numerous Buddhist and Taoist deities and immortals

I don't know. I would look at it. But as long as the concepts are treated as fiction, or the characters don't correspond to real deities and the work has no influence on any religion, it's less embarrassing. But I would look at it.

 

[The_Impress]

Gonna respond to this, homie?

's in the thread fam, page one, articles.

Am on mobile so not gonna bother going through the misery of fetching them

 

[azontr]

's in the thread fam, page one, articles.

Am on mobile so not gonna bother going through the misery of fetching them

Was not meant to be a question for you, but to the OP, but I'll look.

 

[Ellbekarym]

Gonna respond to this, homie?

I'm glad you said that. First, JTTW uses "external text as evidence". Plenty. He invokes real sutras. He quotes the Heart Sutra.

But more to the point, it itself is considered a religious text. This was suggested yesterday, I checked, it's true. Sung Wukong is revered as a god, and this reverence considers de facto JTTW as a primary source aka a religious text.

The Worship of Sun Wukong the Monkey King: An Overview

Last updated: 09-03-2022 I’ve written several articles on the worship of the Monkey King. I’ve decided to post a succinct overview for those not familiar with the subject. Unless cited …

journeytothewestresearch.com

The Worship of Sun Wukong in Wanfu Temple: Initial Findings

Last updated: 07-21-2020 As a historian of the great Chinese classic Journey to the West (Xiyouji, 西遊記, 1592), much of my time researching is spent flipping through piles of books or searching the …

journeytothewestresearch.com

The Sun Wukong Cult in Fujian

Last update: 08-17-19 Worshipers of the Wanfu Temple of Tainan, Taiwan believe their high god and oldest altar statue, the “Laying the Foundation Elder Great Sage” (Kaiji Da Dasheng, 開基…

journeytothewestresearch.com

I'm putting the most decisive excerpts here. I encourage you to read everything, and there are some cool videos.

Sun Wukong is worshiped in southern China, Taiwan, and areas of Southeast Asia, including Malaysia, Singapore, and even Thailand and Vietnam, as the “Great Sage Equaling Heaven” (Qitian dasheng, 齊天大聖) (fig. 1). Variations of this title often include “Lord” (ye, 爺) or “Buddha Patriarch” (fozu, 佛祖) (e.g. Dasheng ye, 大聖爺; Dasheng fozu, 大聖佛祖). He is very rarely addressed as the “Victorious Fighting Buddha” (Dou zhansheng fo, 鬥戰勝佛), which is taken from the end of Journey to the West (1592) when our hero is bestowed Buddhahood for protecting the monk Tripitaka. This is the name of a real world deity (and member of the 35 Confession Buddhas) that was only later associated with Monkey in literature. I’ve even seen one temple that mixed such titles to call him the “Fighting Sage Buddha” (Dou zhan sheng fo, 鬥戰聖佛).
While considered a full-fledged god or even Buddha, the Great Sage is not a supreme deity. In fact, Buddho-Daoist folk religion considers him to be an intermediary for higher-ranking figures. For example, in most traditions he is a subordinate of the Bodhisattva Guanyin. [1] One temple in Taiwan even believes he answers to the martial god Guan Yu. Either way, he is considered the exorcist par excellence and a protector of children. The little ones whom he takes as his godchildren are known in Singapore as “dedicated children” (khoe-kia). Those under his protection are believed to grow up to become well-behaved adults.

Emperors who officially recognized gods helped make them more popular or at least better known. [1] But, as Shahar (1996) explains, the state’s involvement rarely went beyond building temples and making offerings. Oral tales and popular novels were largely responsible for spreading the myth of a particular deity (p. 185). He continues: "In some cases the novel’s transformation of its divine protagonist was so profound, and its impact on the shape of its cult so great, that the novelist could be considered the deity’s creator. A notable example is Sun Wukong. The cult of this divine monkey in late imperial times cannot be separated from his image as shaped by the successive Journey to the West novels. In this respect he is indeed their author’s creation, and Pu Songling‘s complaint, voiced through his protagonist Xu Sheng [許盛], is justified: “Sun Wukong is nothing but a parable invented by [the novelist] Old Qiu [老丘]. [2] How can people sincerely believe in him?” (Shahar, 1996, pp. 193-194)."

You literally have literati complaining that the little people worship a god "out of literature". Of course, the cult of Sun Wukong is much older than JTTW, since the author of the novel himself bases it on. Simply, as it often happens, a work based on existing deities influences the perception of these deities to the point of becoming the new canon. Similar to the Illiad, for example.

In other words: the Sun Wukong JTTW profile is a deity. He is worshipped as such. The work is a Buddhist/Taoist work, containing Buddhist/Taoist deities, "creating" Buddhist/Taoist deities to add to the already existing pantheon.

I think that one cannot be clearer.

As a result, I request that the profile be deleted.

 

[azontr]

Thank you for providing sources, but, I'm not going to read through all that garbage for sources you could just as easily post yourself with saving multiple minutes of time. If someone asks for sources just provide them, that's all.

I'll read through all of them.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Even if there are some that worship Sun Wukong im uncertain of that being enough given afaik Sun Wukong was a character made up by the original author of the JTTW, there are other fictional characters that get worhsipped as well.

Crhulhu Mythos has spawned religons iirc, im pretty sure theres a Cult of Cthulhu who worship him.

 

[Ellbekarym]

That's irrelevant. You can be a Christian and write about God, and you can be a hindu and write about Shiv.

Indeed? I don't see the connection. The key is that in this case it is not treated as fiction. When the author talks about Guanyin he is talking about the real Guanyin.

This is kind of a dated notion of heresy I feel, other argument is the only relevant one.

No ? Actually, that's the most important thing.

 

[Ellbekarym]

Even if there are some that worship Sun Wukong im uncertain of that being enough given afaik Sun Wukong was a character made up by the original author of the JTTW, there are other fictional characters that get worhsipped as well.

Crhulhu Mythos has spawned religons iirc, im pretty sure theres a Cult of Cthulhu who worship him.

The Sun Wukong cult preexisted the novel. The novel added to the mythology. The comparison with the Illiad is the best possible.

 

[StekFence]

From what I can tell, The novel was based on pre existing cults of Sun wukong, and basically copy pasted other religious ideas, then, the success of the novel caused the worship of Sun wukong to become more similar to the adaption presented in Jttw. And so, it’s basically “non canonical” but is often treated as it is. is that right?

 

[PsychoWarper]

So isnmt JTTW Sun Wukong based off the Monkey King? So its a fictional version of the religious character made by the author of the JTTW?

Perhaps due to the popularity of the books it changed the religion some but still afaik the book JTTW is still regarded as fiction in and of itself.

 

[StekFence]

The problem is it heavily influences modern day worship of wukong. It’s like if someone made a really successful novel based on Christianity, and then hundreds of years down the line it’s a book of the bible

 

[Ellbekarym]

From what I can tell, The novel was based on pre existing cults of Sun wukong, and basically copy pasted other religious ideas, then, the success of the novel caused the worship of Sun wukong to become more similar to the adaption presented in Jttw. And so, it’s basically “non canonical” but is often treated as it is. is that right?

There is not really a Buddhist canon. But yes, that is it.

Isnt JTTW Sun Wukong based off the Monkey King? So its a fictional version of the religious character made by the author of the JTTW?

Not so fictional since people don't know the difference. But I repeat myself, the important thing is that the religious concepts mentioned in the first place are not considered to be fiction. Let's focus on the character of Guanyin, it is more eloquent.

 

[azontr]

I've read through all of the sources and such. (More like skimmed but I got the general idea.)

What I've got is that JttW came after all of the Wukong worship and such and was accepted into the actual religious doctrine as some sort of canon years later? Do I got that right? I'm just confirming what I've learned before I say anything else.

 

[StekFence]

That’s my Impression

 

[Ellbekarym]

The problem is it heavily influences modern day worship of wukong. It’s like if someone made a really successful novel based on Christianity, and then hundreds of years down the line it’s a book of the bible

The comparison is good. But I still point out that in the author's mind, all the Buddhist elements in his work are not fiction in first place.

 

[Ellbekarym]

I've read through all of the sources and such. (More like skimmed but I got the general idea.)

What I've got is that JttW came after all of the Wukong worship and such and was accepted into the actual religious doctrine as some sort of canon years later? Do I got that right? I'm just confirming what I've learned before I say anything else.

Indeed. It's a common thing in truth.

 

[PsychoWarper]

The comparison is good. But I still point out that in the author's mind, all the Buddhist elements in his work are not fiction in first place.

Did the original author write it with the purpose of it being a Religous doctrine or script? I don’t think him simply believing in the concepts is enough for deletion given followers of Abrahamic religions have written about Christianity in a fictional sense afaik.

 

[Kiryu-MG3]

I believe deleting the profile to be incredibly unnecessary. Many verses take heavy inspiration from religion.

Castlevania is quite literally the story of a man trying to get revenge on a Christian God, and it uses multiple beings from Christianity.

The Nasuverse, namely Fate, is well known for relatively very faithful retellings of mythology and even modern religion. The literal Buddah is one of the characters we have a profile for, and others are individuals heavily associated with Christianity or even beings taken directly from the bible.

Some of the most prevalent characters in the SCP Foundation are literal, non-figurative, actual, biblical Cain and Able.

Lucifer Morningstar (DC Comics). Just Lucifer Morningstar (DC Comics).

Hell, even the lore of Puyo ************* Puyo takes heavily from the bible, Satan originally being an angel known as Lucifer and having lost his wings due to questioning The Creator (An obvious stand in for God).

The Tao of Pooh is a book that exists, but we aren't deleting Winnie the Pooh's profile over it.

The fact is, Journey to the West is a story based on a religion, not a religious text. And if we ban it, that sets a genuinely dangerous precedent for other verses.

And going with the argument the OP presented that removing Wukong's first two keys and then changing the profile's name would result in a religious figure, no matter how faithful to the original religion the writer tries to be, there are always going to be minor or major differences from if we theoretically made a profile for said figure.

Could not disagree with the OP more.

I remember once Ant deleted a profile of "Jesus from a poem", even if the poem had its own canon and it was separate from the canon of the Bible. Jesus was like a superhero there.

 

[PsychoWarper]

I remember once Ant deleted a profile of "Jesus from a poem", even if the poem had its own canon and it was separate from the canon of the Bible. Jesus was like a superhero there.

If its not considered a Religous doctrine or script with its own “canon” and such it should be allowed tbh.

 

[Ellbekarym]

Did the original author write it with the purpose of it being a Religous doctrine or script? I don’t think him simply believing in the concepts is enough for deletion given followers of Abrahamic religions have written about Christianity in a fictional sense afaik.

He did not think of inventing a new religious doctrine. But when he exposes the Heart Sutra he does so as a real and preexisting doctrinal expression.

The word "novel" can be misleading. It implies a very clear separation between fiction and doctrine. This is not the case here. We must look at it as we look at Plato's dialogues.

In its context, it says nothing new. In the same way as in our context, saying that the Earth revolves around the Sun is not saying anything new.

 

[Kiryu-MG3]

If its not considered a Religous doctrine or script with its own “canon” and such it shiuld be allowed tbh.

Agree

 

[Antvasima]

I remember once Ant deleted a profile of "Jesus from a poem", even if the poem had its own canon and it was separate from the canon of the Bible. Jesus was like a superhero there.

I do not remember that. We currently have lots of pages depicting characters from works whose authors tried to transgress against and defile Christianity as much as possible.

 

[Kiryu-MG3]

I do not remember that. We currently have lots of pages depicting characters from works whose authors tried to transgress against and defile Christianity as much as possible.

Yeah, I remember it correctly it was two years ago. It was a profile of Jesus from John Milton's Paradise Lost.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Was it scaled from the entirety of Christian scripture, including teachings about the 10 levels of God, with the Atzmus at the top, or just the work itself?

 

[Regidian]

If jjtw sun wukong is considered to be the same one than the one they worship, then i think the op is good. It's not the first time that something like that exist so i don't see why it should be an exception.

 

[Kiryu-MG3]

Okay. Was it scaled from the entirety of Christian scripture, including teaching about the 10 levels of God, with the Atzmus at the top, or just the work itself?

Paradise Lost is an epic poem in blank verse by the 17th-century English poet John Milton (1608–1674). It is a story created by Milton in which Jesus is the ultimate hero of the epic.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Then it is probably at least as acceptable to feature as American Gods and Shin Megami Tensei, for example.

 

[Ellbekarym]

Agree

My point is precisely that it is not its own canon. It is so not its own canon that the Chinese Buddhist "real canon" has incorporated it!

Okay. Was it scaled from the entirety of Christian scripture, including teaching about the 10 levels of God, with the Atzmus at the top, or just the work itself?

This is Kabbalah. It is not the "accepted" Christian theology at all.

If jjtw sun wukong is considered to be the same one than the one they worship, then i think the op is good. It's not the first time that something like that exist so i don't see why it should be an exception.

This is the case. Obviously this is the argument that seems to convince you best, although I remain convinced that the decisive point comes from the more general presentation of Buddhist cosmology.

 

[The_Smashor]

IIRC Scientologists worship a work something based on a work of fiction, and we probably wouldn't ban whatever that is.

Some people probably unironically worship tons of fictional characters.

 

[Jibz]

Crhulhu Mythos has spawned religons iirc, im pretty sure theres a Cult of Cthulhu who worship him.

Any church surrounding lovecraft less literally believes in the gods at play, but rather the concept of cosmicism. They dont believe there is a tentacle monster buried deep under Earth, but they do favour the idea of an unfavouring, uncaring God.

Regardless the belief of a concept, is not the same as people who literally believe Sun Wukong exists. And whilst there may be nutcases who believe Cthulhu is a real thing, there would need to be proof of their existence. And then a case for presedence,

 

[Ellbekarym]

Okay. Then it is probably at least as acceptable to feature as American Gods and Shin Megami Tensei, for example.

I have digressed a lot about why it was not applicable for this or that. I quote myself.

American God is the most easily eliminated. Christianity does not recognize that gods are creations of the human mind. It does not recognize that the power of Jesus depends on the worship of men. It does not believe that all gods exist. The paradigm is not Christian.

Bruce Almighty is very distantly Christian. From an iconographic or theological point of view, he does not correspond to Christianity. Besides, he is only 2-C, a profile of the Christian God would be much higher. While, I repeat, the profiles in our case would be identical.

I'm not going to do them all. I repeat, would the hypothetical profile of Satant (IRL) be equivalent to the profile of Lucifer (DC)? No. God did not create two opposing principles, one of which would be Lucifer. The central element of DC is not the death and resurrection of Christ. The goal of the DC characters is not holiness or the kingdom of heaven. The cosmology is not a Christian cosmology. What is the goal of the JTTW characters? Enlightenment, aka Buddhist soteriology. What is their cosmology? A Buddhist/Taoistic cosmology.

Fate. Is the goal of the characters in Fate bodhi? No. Is Buddha the supreme entity of Fate? No. Does the cosmology contain Buddhist elements? Yes. Is it a Buddhist cosmology? No. Is the cosmology of JTTW a Buddhist cosmology? Yes.

SCP. Is it a Christian cosmology? No. Is the most important thing in the universe the death and resurrection of Christ? No. Is the goal the Kingdom of Heaven? No. Is the supreme entity God (as imagined by Christians)? No.

That's not the point. I'll give an example, which will also answer much of what's below.

Let's say I create a fictional cosmogony.

At the bottom are the Greek gods. I cite the Illiad, the Odyssey and the Theogony as sources.
But the Greek gods are only small administrators. Above them is their creator, Allah, lord of the universe. I quote the Koran as a source.
But Allah is not the lord of all. He is the master of a universe, and there are as many universes as there are grains of sand in the Ganges, and above all these Gods, there are the Buddhas and the Bodhistattvas. I quote sutras as sources.
But these Buddhas are only the manifestation of the Brahaman. I quote the Bhagavad-Gita as a source.
But Brahman is only the lowest stage of the Essential Divinity of Kabbalah. I cite the Zohar as my source.

I've done my little cooking by telescoping a bit of all the modern religious metaphysics. It's a bit tendentious, but it passes. Why? Because the story does not fit into any religious paradigm. My Allah, although he shares the name, although he shares the iconography, although he is based on excerpts from the Koran, is not the real Allah, because the real Allah does not share the Greek gods and is not subservient to the Buddhas. The Buddhas are not the manifestation of Brahman and Brahman is not a stage of Kabbalistic divinity. It is a major distortion of the different deities, since they have been taken out of their initial framework to be placed in another. The similarity is only iconographic, not theological. This hypothetical work, although it contains various religious elements, is not religious precisely because no religion contains all these elements. It is neither a Christian work, nor a Buddhist work, nor a paganist-Greek work.

But JTTW does not take its Buddhist and Taoist deities out of their Buddhist and Taoist framework. The deities retain their iconography, their theology, their cosmology. JTTW is a Buddhist and Taoist work.

Now, let's say that in the 16th century another work is created. Let's say the Journey to the East. It tells the story of Brigid who leaves Breatgne in search of the lost gospels. She travels through Europe in the direction of Palestine and of course the Devil and many other demons from Christian folklore stand in her way. But she fights them all off. Several times she meets the Virgin Mary and they have discussions about the nature of God, the Trinity and the Holiness. Passages from the Bible, the Summa Theologiae, the Confessions, the encyclicals and the Catechism of the Catholic Church are expressly quoted and commented on. Moreover, the author of the book is Catholic and addresses a Catholic audience. Then she arrives in Palestine where Jesus appears to her. After many adventures, Brigid becomes a Saint herself and returns to the Kingdom of Heaven. And thereafter (and even before in reality, since the author did not invent the character of Brigid, which comes from folklore) Saint Brigid will be venerated indeed. Her day is February 1st.

And that now you are profiling Brigid (JTTE) and, why not, Jesus (JTTE). Do you see the problem?

Because yes, indeed, Sun Wukong is actually venerated. See the end.

 

[Ellbekarym]

IIRC Scientologists worship a work something based on a work of fiction, and we probably wouldn't ban whatever that is.

Some people probably unironically worship tons of fictional characters.

Scientologists don't think it's fiction. I personally think Hubbard is a fraud, but under any conceivable circumstances he did not teach them it was fiction, and they did not believe it was fiction. Anyway, no Scientologist worships Xenu.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Any church surrounding lovecraft less literally believes in the gods at play, but rather the concept of cosmicism. They dont believe there is a tentacle monster buried deep under Earth, but they do favour the idea of an unfavouring, uncaring God.

Regardless the belief of a concept, is not the same as people who literally believe Sun Wukong exists. And whilst there may be nutcases who believe Cthulhu is a real thing, there would need to be proof of their existence. And then a case for presedence,

Fair enough, im sure there are people that legitimately worship Cthulhu himself but fair they arnt really big or official afaik.

 

[Ellbekarym]

Fair enough, im sure there are people that legitimately worship Cthulhu himself but fair they arnt really big or official afaik.

No doubt. Although not really religion imo. More like spirituality.

 

[Jibz]

IIRC Scientologists worship a work something based on a work of fiction, and we probably wouldn't ban whatever that is.

Some people probably unironically worship tons of fictional characters.

I dont think Dianetics was ever meant to be fictional, its quite literally a “canonical” book as Wikipedia states. But if you could prove otherwise id be happy to rescind my statement

 

[ShivaShakti]

Fair enough, im sure there are people that legitimately worship Cthulhu himself but fair they arnt really big or official afaik.

Typhonian Thelema.

 

[ShivaShakti]

IIRC Scientologists worship a work something based on a work of fiction, and we probably wouldn't ban whatever that is.

Some people probably unironically worship tons of fictional characters.

No. L Ron Hubbard was explicitly authoring with the intention of engendering the advent of a new religion.

 

[Ellbekarym]

Typhonian Thelema.

Holy Zeus.

I am converted.

I now protest against the pages of the Cthuhlu Mythos. They offend me.

Although no wait. They're Tier 0. And that's cool. Keep them.