Deleting the Sun Wukong profile

[Ellbekarym]

Hello everyone.

It's a pity I didn't notice earlier the CRT that started in January this year, because it's a lot of effort that becomes useless.

In summary: the novel Journey to the West (JTTW) draws heavily and directly from Taoist and Buddhist theology. Its religious nature is insurmountable, profiles must be deleted.

I began by discussing it here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/jttw-additions-changes-crt.135112/#post-4818128 Here is a summary of my argument.

The justifications for the last two keys of Sun Wukong are statements of misunderstood Buddhist philosophy. I say misunderstood because indeed the concepts are used in any way, but that is not important: it is the eminently religious nature of these concepts that is the problem.

The concepts used are, non exhaustive list :

- Dharma: the doctrine, the teaching of the Buddha. The Dharma obviously refers to the real teaching of the historical Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama).

• dharma : with a small "d" refers to all phenomena
• Sunyata : "emptiness" or "vacuity". Refers to the emptiness of the nature of phenomena
• Dharmakaya : Body of Dharma, or Body of Law. Refers either to the doctrine (synonymous with Dharma in this case) or to the Buddha in his "thusness"
• Dharmadhatu: Domain of the Dharma, or Domain of the Absolute. Not formally cited, but the definition of dharmakaya used is actually that of dharmadhatu.
• Tathāgatagarbha: receptacle of the Tathāga, or Buddha Nature. Refers either to the awakening potential of all beings, or to the beings themselves as awakened.
• Prajna : sapience, or transcendent wisdom. Primary quality of the Buddhas.

When I speak about Buddhas, I speak about Buddhas as they are considered IRL by the followers of the religious denominations concerned.

These concepts are not less religious than those of Trinity or Brahman among Christians and Hindus respectively. In the different blogs used, Buddhist sutras (thus literature as religious as possible) are used, in particular the Heart Sutra. The text of the JTTW itself makes numerous references to sutras (which is a bit of a goal of the trip, by the way). The important thing to understand is that the buddhist concepts presented in JTTW are not invented by the authors of the novel and are not internal to the work. They are external, unaltered Buddhist religious concepts that are included in the work. In other words, all the justifications given for establishing a tier for Sun Wukong in his last two keys are usable to profile the historical Buddha or any IRL whorshipped buddhist deity.

To rephrase: you remove the first two keys and change the name of the profile, you have Siddhartha Gautama (IRL). VSBattle virtually contains the profile of a religious figure, which is against its policy.

Therefore, I request the removal of the JTTW profiles. In general, this novel cannot be taken separately from religion.

 

[Confluctor]

10 pages long original CRT to distinguish the irl from fiction
Finally profile gets made
Everything good
Week later, this

@ActuallySpaceMan

 

[Ellbekarym]

@ActuallySpaceMan

I don't agree. There is no difference between the speech used for the last two keys of Wukong and a hypothetical speech to justify that of a Buddha "IRL".

And when I say no difference, I mean none, zero, nada. When you use the Hearth Sutra it's the same thing to the word since it's the same text.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

From what I am aware, all of the concepts are explained within the setting of Journey to the West itself, and not just mentioned and meant to be filled-in with the IRL definition. Thus, what it describes is very similar to actual Buddhism, but is not actually taking from Buddhism as a religion.

 

[Chariot190]

My dude, we have profiles of ******* Jesus as he appears in some media.
Similar or not, matter of the fact is that it isn't the same dude.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Nothing you have stated is against the rules of the site. Plenty of versus copy things heavily from all kinds of religion, but at the end of the day, they are their own separate canon and have no grounds on the actual religion and vice versa.

Saver from Fate (Uses the name Buddha and Shakyamuni, his attacks are based on concepts very clearly similar to that of Buddhism. He even talks about Buddhist Concepts in his dialogue but he's still his own character.)

Sakya from Megami Tensei (Uses the exact description of the IRL Buddha, as well as the name Siddartha Gautama. His state of Nirvana is exactly like that of IRL Buddhism and is where he gets his Tier but again he's still his own character.)

 

[sanicspood]

come on

 

[Ellbekarym]

From what I am aware, all of the concepts are explained within the setting of Journey to the West itself, and not just mentioned and meant to be filled-in with the IRL definition. Thus, what it describes is very similar to actual Buddhism, but is not actually taking from Buddhism as a religion.

The problem is that the setting is not presented as entirely fictional. JTTW refers to real deities as they are worshipped, real theological concepts as they are taught, and real sutras as they actually exist. The way concepts are understood is through the prism of Buddhist theology.

This is true of JTTW, it would also be true of Krishna and Arjuna from the Mahabharatha.

Secondly, I don't understand "don't talk about Buddhism as a religion". There are plenty of Buddhist deities in JTTW. You can make a profile of Siddhartha Gautama (JTTW) and Guanyin (JTTW). And these profiles will be identical to hypothetical Siddhartha Gautama (Buddhism) and Guanyin (Buddhism)

My dude, we have profiles of ******* Jesus as he appears in some media.
Similar or not, matter of the fact is that it isn't the same dude.

No. No Jesus corresponds to the Jesus venerated by Christians. What does that mean? That if you made a profile of Jesus (Christianity) it would be different from the Jesus profile (lambda verse). Now, here, a Guanyin (Buddhism) profile would not be distinct from the Guanyin (JTTW) profile.

Nothing you have stated is against the rules of the site. Plenty of versus copy things heavily from all kinds of religion, but at the end of the day, they are their own separate canon and have no grounds on the actual religion and vice versa.

Saver from Fate (Uses the name Buddha and Shakyamuni, his attacks are based on concepts very clearly similar to that of Buddhism. He even talks about Buddhist Concepts in his dialogue but he's still his own character.)

Sakya from Megami Tensei (Uses the exact description of the IRL Buddha, as well as the name Siddartha Gautama. His state of Nirvana is exactly like that of IRL Buddhism and is where he gets his Tier but again he's still his own character.)

It is not a question of taking inspiration from or copying a religion. The two profiles you mentioned are part of a fictional cosmology which is not that of Chinese Buddhism. The two personages mentioned do not base their tier on sutras, are not the supreme beings of their respective universes, interact with beings that do not exist in the Chinese cosmology, etc. Sun Wunkong does not share his universe with Yhwh. You are acting in bad faith if you do not see the obvious difference.

 

[Confluctor]

It is fiction, thus it's indexable. We have tons of fiction which uses irl stuff, but doesn't mean they aren't indexable. I don't usually like brining this up, but Fate, American Gods, etc are good examples of this. They use established irl concepts, names and gods, and we still index them because they are fictionalised versions of them.

 

[The_Impress]

If it's just not called Gautam Buddha (IRL) why does it matter if it has similarities?

As long as it is using information present in the novel, and said novel is acknowledged to be a fictional representation by the faith's followers, it is indexable.

Like if I were to make files for say, Amish Tripathi's books which are blatantly meant to represent a fictional story set within the hindu mythology, that is completely fine, and similarly if one were to write about Abrahamic Gods, like so many comics and films do, they're completely fine representations.

 

[Chariot190]

The amount of characters and verses that take religious concepts and implements them into the verse is absolutely baffling, it's honestly probably one of the most wide spread practices in all of media.
But we aren't gonna delete a verse because they have a hell, heaven and maybe make references to shit like cherubs or an Islamic God.

Fate does it all the time, even has biblical characters in, or characters from Hindu, Buddihst and more religious philosophy as cool anime characters.

JTTW is NOT literally Buddhism even if it rips directly from it.

 

[The_Impress]

also be true of Krishna and Arjuna from the Mahabharatha.

This is inaccurate to an extent, Mahabharat is actually presented to be factual, not a fictional story.

Is your assertion that Journey to the West is meant to be a factual account as well?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

The problem is that the setting is not presented as entirely fictional. JTTW refers to real deities as they are worshipped, real theological concepts as they are taught, and real sutras as they actually exist. The way concepts are understood is through the prism of Buddhist theology.

This is true of JTTW, it would also be true of Krishna and Arjuna from the Mahabharatha.

Secondly, I don't understand "don't talk about Buddhism as a religion". There are plenty of Buddhist deities in JTTW. You can make a profile of Siddhartha Gautama (JTTW) and Guanyin (JTTW). And these profiles will be identical to hypothetical Siddhartha Gautama (Buddhism) and Guanyin (Buddhism)

And? Those concepts are all explained in the story itself, and thus not left to be interpreted subjectively. Sure, it's essentially a theological time capsule, but because it explains everything in its own context, it's not actually drawing on the IRL religion to be understood, You can go in knowing nothing about Daoism or Buddhism and still, to an extent, understand what's going on, because it explains these things.

 

[Arceus0x]

yeah i mean we have tons of profiles based on the Abrahamic/Christian representation of God so it isn't really sth special

 

[Ellbekarym]

It is fiction, thus it's indexable. We have tons of fiction which uses irl stuff, but doesn't mean they aren't indexable. I don't usually like brining this up, but Fate, American Gods, etc are good examples of this. They use established irl concepts, names and gods, and we still index them because they are fictionalised versions of them.

I just explained how it was not the same thing. Christians do not believe that all gods exist and that Jesus can have a drink with Thor. BTTW does not "fictionalize" its gods.

If it's just not called Gautam Buddha (IRL) why does it matter if it has similarities?

Because in this case "no religion" becomes a hollow and meaningless statement.

As long as it is using information present in the novel, and said novel is acknowledged to be a fictional representation by the faith's followers, it is indexable.

Dharma, thatagatha and others are precisely not recognized as fictional.

The amount of characters and verses that take religious concepts and implements them into the verse is absolutely baffling, it's honestly probably one of the most wide spread practices in all of media.
But we aren't gonna delete a verse because they have a hell, heaven and maybe make references to shit like cherubs or an Islamic God.

Fate does it all the time, even has biblical characters in, or characters from Hindu, Buddihst and more religious philosophy as cool anime characters.

I have just shown how the Fate example is not relevant. What I am saying applies only to JTTW from what I know of what is on this site.

JTTW is NOT literally Buddhism even if it rips directly from it.

Guanyin JJTW is literally Guanyin of Buddhism.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Hello everyone.

It's a pity I didn't notice earlier the CRT that started in January this year, because it's a lot of effort that becomes useless.

In summary: the novel Journey to the West (JTTW) draws heavily and directly from Taoist and Buddhist theology. Its religious nature is insurmountable, profiles must be deleted.

I began by discussing it here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/jttw-additions-changes-crt.135112/#post-4818128 Here is a summary of my argument.

The justifications for the last two keys of Sun Wukong are statements of misunderstood Buddhist philosophy. I say misunderstood because indeed the concepts are used in any way, but that is not important: it is the eminently religious nature of these concepts that is the problem.

The concepts used are, non exhaustive list :

- Dharma: the doctrine, the teaching of the Buddha. The Dharma obviously refers to the real teaching of the historical Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama).

• dharma : with a small "d" refers to all phenomena
• Sunyata : "emptiness" or "vacuity". Refers to the emptiness of the nature of phenomena
• Dharmakaya : Body of Dharma, or Body of Law. Refers either to the doctrine (synonymous with Dharma in this case) or to the Buddha in his "thusness"
• Dharmadhatu: Domain of the Dharma, or Domain of the Absolute. Not formally cited, but the definition of dharmakaya used is actually that of dharmadhatu.
• Tathāgatagarbha: receptacle of the Tathāga, or Buddha Nature. Refers either to the awakening potential of all beings, or to the beings themselves as awakened.
• Prajna : sapience, or transcendent wisdom. Primary quality of the Buddhas.

When I speak about Buddhas, I speak about Buddhas as they are considered IRL by the followers of the religious denominations concerned.

These concepts are not less religious than those of Trinity or Brahman among Christians and Hindus respectively. In the different blogs used, Buddhist sutras (thus literature as religious as possible) are used, in particular the Heart Sutra. The text of the JTTW itself makes numerous references to sutras (which is a bit of a goal of the trip, by the way). The important thing to understand is that the buddhist concepts presented in JTTW are not invented by the authors of the novel and are not internal to the work. They are external, unaltered Buddhist religious concepts that are included in the work. In other words, all the justifications given for establishing a tier for Sun Wukong in his last two keys are usable to profile the historical Buddha or any IRL whorshipped buddhist deity.

To rephrase: you remove the first two keys and change the name of the profile, you have Siddhartha Gautama (IRL). VSBattle virtually contains the profile of a religious figure, which is against its policy.

Therefore, I request the removal of the JTTW profiles. In general, this novel cannot be taken separately from religion.

delete DC cuz it has abrahamic important concepts
delete marvel due to similar reason
delete god of war
delete record of ragnarok
delete Unsong
delete rick and morty
delete jojo
delete american gods
delete madness combat
delete one piece
delete bruce almighty
delete supernatural



hmmmmm, NO.

just because a franchise/media have characters that are related with some religions, they are still different and JTTW threads made it clear

 

[The_Impress]

Dharma, thatagatha and others are precisely not recognized as fictional.

Gravity, kinetic energy and atoms are precisely not recognised as fictional. They're concepts.

Irrelevant equivalence, and again, if your issue is that they're pulling stats from outside the novel, that is valid, I can agree to the deletion then.

But as long as that page uses info as defined in the novel, it is 100% legit given it is a restricted account from a fictional novel, that isn't considering to include and tier any further supplementary info from IRL buddhism

 

[Chariot190]

BTTW does not "fictionalize" its gods.

Doesn't matter, if I write an book, and I straight up open the Bible or Quran and start copy pasting gods, events or what not into it and make it 1:1, at the end of the day, just because I'm borderline ripping it off, doesn't mean my work is literally it. Which is what needs to be the case, in order to delete it, it HAS to be quite literally, the text itself, not an adaption, not a retelling, not any of that.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Doesn't matter, if I write an book, and I straight up open the Bible or Quran and start copy pasting gods, events or what not into it and make it 1:1, at the end of the day, just because I'm borderline ripping it off, doesn't mean my work is literally it. Which is what needs to be the case, in order to delete it, it HAS to be quite literally, the text itself, not an adaption, not a retelling, not any of that.

Well, we didn't allow Paradise Lost and Dante's Divine Comedy to be indexed for similar reasons. Perhaps another thread should be created on our "religious" standards?

 

[Ellbekarym]

This is inaccurate to an extent, Mahabharat is actually presented to be factual, not a fictional story.

Is your assertion that Journey to the West is meant to be a factual account as well?

When the author of the novel explains the Buddhist doctrine, he does not express it as fiction. He doesn't consider it as fiction. It is the same for the Imitation of Jesus Christ or Plato's dialogues. The dialogue may be fictional, the message is not.

And? Those concepts are all explained in the story itself,

Just because they are explained in the story does not mean they are exclusive to the story or fictional. JTTW refers to several Sutras. The Heart Sutra is invoked.

and thus not left to be interpreted subjectively. Sure, it's essentially a theological time capsule, but because it explains everything in its own context,

His "own context" is Chinese Buddhist theology.

yeah i mean we have tons of profiles based on the Abrahamic/Christian representation of God so it isn't really sth special

I explained how it's not the same thing. Or, if you think any of them fall into the same problem, post it and I'll tell you if they do.

delete DC cuz it has abrahamic important concepts
delete marvel due to similar reason
delete god of war
delete record of ragnarok
delete Unsong
delete rick and morty
delete jojo
delete american gods
delete madness combat
delete one piece
delete bruce almighty
delete supernatural



hmmmmm, NO.

just because a franchise/media have characters that are related with some religions, they are still different and JTTW threads made it clear

Read before you post.

But yes, Unsong is tendentious. The only thing that saves him is that an extreme minority of Jews adhere to the concepts of Kabbalah (we can't say "it's judaism"). Atziluth is not mainstream like such basic stuff as dharma.

Gravity, kinetic energy and atoms are precisely not recognised as fictional. They're concepts.

Irrelevant equivalence, and again, if your issue is that they're pulling stats from outside the novel, that is valid, I can agree to the deletion then.

I don't understand what you are saying. Gravity is not a religious doctrine.

Doesn't matter, if I write an book, and I straight up open the Bible or Quran and start copy pasting gods, events or what not into it and make it 1:1, at the end of the day, just because I'm borderline ripping it off, doesn't mean my work is literally it. Which is what needs to be the case, in order to delete it, it HAS to be quite literally, the text itself, not an adaption, not a retelling, not any of that.

This is excellent then, since JTTW quotes the "text itself" repeatedly (just by looking at the blogs it shows) and the "text itself" is used repeatedly as justification.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I don't agree. Works of fiction that integrate concepts from theology are ultimately still works of fiction.

 

[Ellbekarym]

Well, we didn't allow Paradise Lost and Dante's Divine Comedy to be indexed for similar reasons. Perhaps another thread should be created on our "religious" standards?

If this is true, and I thank you for making me feel less lonely, then it is decisive because JTTW is (in his Buddhist description, for the rest it's wtf) much more orthodox than Dante or Milton.

 

[Chariot190]

This is excellent then, since JTTW quotes the "text itself" repeatedly (just by looking at the blogs it shows) and the "text itself" is used repeatedly as justification.

When I said "text" itself, I meant the literal, actual, medium, which are often referred to as "texts", I didn't mean Ctrl+V.

 

[Bernkastelll]

This is excellent then, since JTTW quotes the "text itself" repeatedly (just by looking at the blogs it shows) and the "text itself" is used repeatedly as justification.

he meant the whole thing, cuz a lot of verses copy and paste texts

 

[Ellbekarym]

I don't agree. Works of fiction that integrate concepts from theology are ultimately still works of fiction.

The problem is, I repeat, that a Guanyin (JTTW) profile will have virtually no difference with a Guanyin (Buddhism) profile. We are not just integrating theology, we are in theology. I don't blame World of Darkness, for example, for piling up all the possible metaphysics and doing its own thing with them, precisely because it does its own thing with them. The WoD paradigm is not an existing theological paradigm. The JTTW paradigm is a Chinese Buddhist paradigm. Its deities are Chinese Buddhist deities.

 

[Chariot190]

Well, we didn't allow Paradise Lost and Dante's Divine Comedy to be indexed for similar reasons. Perhaps another thread should be created on our "religious" standards?

Probably, having read those, I can safely say that while it draws heavily from biblical shit, it isn't ACTUALLY biblical, a̵n̵d̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵d̵u̵d̵e̵ ̵t̵a̵k̵e̵s̵ ̵q̵u̵i̵t̵e̵ ̵a̵ ̵f̵e̵w̵ ̵l̵i̵b̵e̵r̵t̵i̵e̵s̵ ̵a̵n̵y̵w̵a̵y̵ ̵s̵o̵ ̵i̵t̵'̵s̵ ̵n̵o̵t̵ ̵e̵v̵e̵n̵ ̵t̵r̵u̵l̵y̵ ̵1̵:̵1̵

 

[Chariot190]

I repeat, that a Guanyin (JTTW) profile will have virtually no difference with a Guanyin (Buddhism) profile.

Virtually no difference isn't the same as literally no difference.

 

[ShivaShakti]

If I recall correctly (though I may be mistaken), it is not uncommon for Journey To The West to be integrated into Buddhist Practice. I know some actually revere Sun Wukong as a Buddhist Figure. The subject is very contentious admittedly.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Probably, having read those, I can safely say that while it draws heavily from biblical shit, it isn't ACTUALLY biblical, a̵n̵d̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵d̵u̵d̵e̵ ̵t̵a̵k̵e̵s̵ ̵q̵u̵i̵t̵e̵ ̵a̵ ̵f̵e̵w̵ ̵l̵i̵b̵e̵r̵t̵i̵e̵s̵ ̵a̵n̵y̵w̵a̵y̵ ̵s̵o̵ ̵i̵t̵'̵s̵ ̵n̵o̵t̵ ̵e̵v̵e̵n̵ ̵t̵r̵u̵l̵y̵ ̵1̵:̵1̵

Well, my point is that if we won't allow Paradise Lost or The Divine Comedy, why is Journey To The West an exception? Journey To The West is profoundly theological, and some Buddhists even revere Sun Wukong as I have stated.

 

[Confluctor]

Paradise Lost

Dante's Divine Comedy

I will be honest, idk why either of them needs removing. If anything, they are fictional poems dealing with a fictional stuff that is inspired by the Bible. Should be allowed to be indexed.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I will be honest, idk why either of them needs removing. If anything, they are fictional poems dealing with a fictional stuff that is inspired by the Bible. Should be allowed to be indexed.

Well, that is why I am suggesting that a thread be made to discuss the matter.

 

[Ellbekarym]

he meant the whole thing, cuz a lot of verses copy and paste texts

I would have to take time to put rigorous examples. But typically the Heart Sutra (which is a very short text) is quoted in full.

When I said "text" itself, I meant the literal, actual, medium, which are often referred to as "texts", I didn't mean Ctrl+V.

I don't understand the difference. Please elaborate.

Virtually no difference isn't the same as literally no difference.

What difference in particular do you imagine? It's kind of ironic, but you'd have to do a Guanyin (IRL) profile (at least as a thought experiment) to compare.

 

[Confluctor]

Well, that is why I am suggesting that a thread be made to discuss the matter.

I think each of them should be discussed in its own thread. We don't really need a standard for it.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I would have to take time to put rigorous examples. But typically the Heart Sutra (which is a very short text) is quoted in full.

the 10 commandments is a short and important text that still is followed by Jews and Christians and still is quoted fully by a lot of medias and franchises

 

[Chariot190]

What difference in particular do you imagine? It's kind of ironic, but you'd have to do a Guanyin (IRL) profile (at least as a thought experiment) to compare.

No we don't? If they're different, they're different. Having the same powers and what not isn't an argument, if someone made a Jesus profile from some random comic and his abilities are just the same shit Jesus did in the Bible, that wouldn't make it void. But actually in this case, it's more like if there was a dude called Desus who had the same powers and what not.

the 10 commandments is a short text and still is quoted fully by a lot of medias

Also good point.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Disagree, as long as the profiles use stuff exclusively from the Novels then it should be regarded as fictional and allowed.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I think each of them should be discussed in its own thread. We don't really need a standard for it.

Well, it seems arbitrary that we will allow some "Religious Epics" to be indexed, but we forbid others. Especially when it is forbidden for reasons that another religious epic which we index also commits.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Also long as the story is regarded as fiction even if it draws heavily from existing Religions it should be allowed to be on the wiki.

 

[Confluctor]

As I said, like ActuallySpaceMan made a CRT to get this accepted, each new one should get the same. We don't need standards for something like this. It should be judged case by case. It's a lot easier to do so that way imo, and control what sort of religious heavy stuff makes it way to the wiki.

But if you want, you can make a CRT for it.

 

[Ellbekarym]

the 10 commandments is a short text and still is quoted fully by a lot of medias

No doubt. But you don't base fictional character descriptions on the Ten Commandments. Because the Ten Commandments are prescriptive, not descriptive.

A better analogy would be the Nicene Creed (a short text that describes the basics of Catholic/Orthodox theology). Relying on the Nicene Creed would be a problem.

No we don't? If they're different, they're different. Having the same powers and what not isn't an argument, if someone made a Jesus profile from some random comic and his abilities are just the same shit Jesus did in the Bible, that wouldn't make it void. But actually in this case, it's more like if there was a dude called Desus who had the same powers and what not.

If your Jesus is the same as the one in Catholic theology, using passages from the Bible and the Summa Theologica, would that be okay? I don't admit it. Again, I ask you what would be the differences between the two Guanyins. I don't see any.

Also long as the story is regarded as fiction even if it draws heavily from existing Religions it should be allowed to be on the wiki.

If what is said above is true, Sun Wukong is not looked at as fiction. I will do some research. Under any circumstances, Guanyin (I will stick to this example) is not considered to be fiction.