Regarding Sun Wukong (Journey to the West)'s Tier

[Udlmaster]

Anyway, wasn't there an argument about a 2-A Wukong? What was that based on?

As Greatsage said, there's 2 translations for a stanza that talks about the Dragon Realms.

The Official translation I have stated there are Infinite Dragon Realms

In the one Great Sage got, it was "As many Dragon Realms as there are grains of sand in the Ganges"

"Grains of Sand in the Ganges" appears a lot in Buddhists texts such as Diamond Sutra, where Buddha asks Sabuti if someone had as many treasures as there are Grains of Sand in the Ganges rivers and filled a Universe with it, would they gain as much merit as reciting a single word from this (Read: The Diamond Sutra) Sutra.

Considering Buddhas believe the Universe gains multiple infinities, see the Avatamsaka and even if we don't draw upon other Sutras, Buddha states:

“Subhuti, do you think that you can measure all of the space in the Eastern Heavens?”

“No, Most Honored One. One cannot possibly measure all of the space in the Eastern Heavens.”

“Subhuti, can space in all the Western, Southern, and Northern Heavens, both above and below, be measured?”

“No, Most Honored One. One cannot possibly measure all the space in the Western, Southern, and Northern Heavens.”

So the Universe in Buddhism already contains multiple Infinities, so the Ganges being used as a measurement of Infinity is not that strange.

 

[Udlmaster]

Risci remade the profile on whatever scans Mario and Greatsage brought.

He didn't remake the profile, he actively copy and pasted it from my profile.

I even know this because the parts he rewrote he uses the outdated "Taoist/Taoism" while I use "Daoist/Daoism" and

" Immortality (Type 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5: Removed his name from the Registry of Hell and therefore cannot die, ate the Peaches of Immortality, Pills of Immortality, gained Daoist Immortality)"

So don't make things up like him remaking the profile when it's obvious he took my work without permission.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems to make sense. The problem is that we can only base the statistics on what is said in JTTW itself though.

 

[Antvasima]

Udlmaster, what would you like to update in the current profile page?

 

[Udlmaster]

Okay. That seems to make sense. The problem is that we can only base the statistics on what is said in JTTW itself though.

Of course, the days where we scaled Wukong to the Buddha are long over, I was using all of that to show how "As many sand in the Ganges" as a measurement of Infinity in Buddhism and the Text was written by a Buddhist inside of the Daoist-Buddhist Universe.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Noted. So about my earlier question...

 

[Udlmaster]

Okay. Noted. So about my earlier question...

Do you want me to add the 2-A rank to the profile, is that what you're asking?

Because the first key is more important, with it being horribly downplayed to Mountain Level, when as I brought up in the thread, Wukong has been stated to have Infinite Power on multiple occasions and fought the Gods who embody Concepts, like the Points of the Compass.

And as shown above, Buddhists (The Writer of Journey to the West was a Buddhist) believe the Cardinal Directions cannot be measured and that they are immeasurable.

And obviously, Wukong was trashing Heaven.

As well, it was stated several times that Wukong has infinite power, which, as I said in the thread, the argument of "Flowery Language" cannot be applied because we don't know the original intents of the Author and the fact that it has been stated several times just seems to prove that even more.

As well, because these people haven't actually read the book entirely, they don't know the weapon Wukong uses is the Pillar for the Silver Way, also known as the Milky Way, which was thought to be infinite.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Agreed

 

[Antvasima]

I was mainly referring to the outdated other information that you mentioned within the profile page, but if it has been stated outright that Wukong had infinite power even originally, he should probably have a High 3-A key, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Are there some staff members that you think I should call here?

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew_Schroeder @The_real_cal_howard @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Edenstar @Roachman40 @The_Archdemon @Crimson_Azoth @ThePerpetual @CinnabarManx421 @Penguinkingpin @Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou) @Amelia_Lonelyheart

I would appreciate your input here.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I was mainly referring to the outdated other information that you mentioned within the profile page, but if it has been stated outright that Wukong had infinite power even originally, he should probably have a High 3-A key, yes.

It's on a 4D level

 

[Greatsage13th]

Because wukong can harness the energies of the primordial chaos which created Yin and Yang which are on a level beyond the concepts of time and space and should be above monkey king wukong but scales to Buddhahood wukong which should make Buddhahood Wukong 2A by default

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody summarise the evidence in an easily understood manner please?

 

[Ionliosite]

but if it has been stated outright that Wukong had infinite power even originally, he should probably have a High 3-A key, yes.

Eh, infinite power could be flowery considering multiple other of Wukong's characteristics are listed as infinite (such as beauty), however if there's evidence for it being literal, I'll welcome it.

On another note, I added the extra justification for Low 2-C that I mentioned before to the profile.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Eh, infinite power could be flowery considering multiple other of Wukong's characteristics are listed as infinite (such as beauty), however if there's evidence for it being literal, I'll welcome it.

On another note, I added the extra justification for Low 2-C that I mentioned before to the profile.

When there are statements of infinite amount of realms just on the Earth's sea such as the infinite dragon realms. You can't call that 'Flowery Language'.

And Buddha not only held that in his palm. He held the entire earth or mortal realm, the milky way, the various space-times of multiple realms and space and time itself in his palms which is his large size type 9 feat that sun wukong scale in Buddhahood.

 

[Greatsage13th]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

Should I ask Ricsi to comment here?

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, Greatsage seems to make a good point, but I am the wrong person to ask.

 

[Mariogoods]

I was mainly referring to the outdated other information that you mentioned within the profile page, but if it has been stated outright that Wukong had infinite power even originally, he should probably have a High 3-A key, yes.

He definitely has that. Even one of the "Immortal Peach" could give a mortal living forever without eating and drinking.

 

[Ionliosite]

When there are statements of infinite amount of realms just on the Earth's sea such as the infinite dragon realms. You can't call that 'Flowery Language'.

What you're saying is completely different from what I said tho. We aren't even remotively talking about the same thing.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Indicating a number of object is different from a quality being said to be infinite. Kirby would be High 3-A since a long time otherwise.

 

[Antvasima]

That is a good point.

What about the 2-A rating then?

 

[Ionliosite]

Well, they would need actually post the quote to evaluate that.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, that would be best.

@Udlmaster

Are you willing to help out?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Well, they would need actually post the quote to evaluate that.

Rainbows surround the Venerable One.
The Western Paradise, known as the best,
Is ruled by the dharma King of non-phenomenon.
Black apes are always offering fruit,
Deer hold flowers in their mouths;
Blue phoenixes dance,
Coloured birds call;
Sacred turtles offer long life,
Immortal cranes present magic mushrooms.
Here they peacefully enjoy the Pure Land of the Jetavana Park,
The infinite realms of the Dragon Palace.
Every day flowers bloom,
Fruit is always ripe.
Through practicing silence they return to the truth,
Achieving reality by contemplation.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Is there any other supporting evidence for this as well?

 

[Greatsage13th]

One day, as the Buddha dwelt in the Thunder Monastery on the Vulture Peak, he called together all the other Buddhas, Arhats, guardian deities, Bodhisattvas, Vajrapanis, monks and nuns and said, “As we are beyond time, I don’t know how long it has been since the crafty ape was subdued and Heaven pacified, but by earthly reckoning it must be about five hundred years.

The Buddha, who was watching him with his wise eyes, saw the Monkey King whirling forward like a windmill and not stopping until he saw five flesh-pink pillars topped by dark vapours.

You’re wrong there,” the Great Sage replied. “I went to the farthest point of Heaven, where I saw five flesh-pink pillars topped by dark vapours. I left my mark there: do you dare come and see it with me?”

“There’s no need to go. Just look down.” The Great Sage looked down with his fire eyes with golden pupils to see the words “The Great Sage Equaling Heaven Was Here” written on the middle finger of the Buddha’s right hand. The stink of monkey-piss rose from the fold at the bottom of the finger.

“What a thing to happen,” exclaimed the Great Sage in astonishment. “I wrote this on one of the pillars supporting the sky, so how can it be on his finger now?

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Your welcome

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I guess we do this again. Sorry, my nose is running, my eyes are irritate, I'm on a phone, some typos are assured. Of course, stuff like "endless dualities" is an out of context claim referring to a dude saying the world has endless possibilities one can study.

Let's go over these. I admit the profile I made wasn't the best, I was and still am sick, but this...

He was unknown because the world of Journey to the West isn't reflective of the real world in any way. The size of the universe is unknown, but lacks any proof to be large at all.

He has possibly Low 2-C as an interpretation of his stance with dualities, and assumption about creating the unknown sized reality. The former is a very, very iffy thing since he exists outside of duality due to being a nonexistent "non-being", and upkeep ing the laws of reality by shaping the formless yin and yang, but no full on transcendence is given. The latter assumes that the god that he surpassed was Low 2-C for "destroying" the primordial chaos and creating dualities. A Buddha doesn't ever interact with the one who did this, but the assumption is that the god wasn't that special and that they should be above them. The latter died doing it if I recall right however, so it's an assumption that they scale to Pangu's suicide feat.

For Udl, I have answered you concern. I took your sandbox as a reference, but I did the formatting myself. I also offered to reword the summary if you'd prefer.

He doesn't interact with all of time and space. Buddha, the og dude, says that he doesn't have a concept of time and so he doesn't feel the passage of it, which is used to info dump us on the 500 years that passed since Wukong was sealed.

For Wukong's claimed infinite powers, two time this is done, amd: the first time he says that they are wasting his infinite powers on making him look after horses. And he is called out a few lines later - by the narrator mind you - for being arrogant.
5he second time, after he helps some people with no particular immense showings of power, he is flattered by telling him (with a little paraphrasing, I can search the quote up later) "you have saved us with your infinite power". Obviously he showed nothing on this level.

And besides, his feats are nul. Zero. There are two actual feats that he has achieved, those being shaking mountains with a strike and breaking a mountain in to while sending gravel up to miles near it. Nothing else he has ever actually done goes above that.

The 2-A argument here didn't mention how instead of infinite, they use an idom of "as numerous as the sands in" (I can't remember the name of the desert but you get it). These worlds are also not parralel universes, they are inside the world, in the dragon kings territory.



People are described as "infinitely lucky" for not being under the active rule of others, "infinitely merciful" for teaching Wukong his spells, "infinitely wise" and "infinitely divine" based on what they look like, and so on.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation Ricsi. I think that it makes sense, and hope that you get well soon.

Are you willing to help out to otherwise improve on the profile page, as we talked about earlier in this thread?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I'm willing to help, yes. I suppose it should be first decided how we wish to rare Pangu (he created the world, so a Low 2-C is probably fine), what ability controlling shapeless yin and yang (as understand, they take the shapeless yin-yang and shape it into its many material forms, though whether they can change the duality of something that does have a "shape", like man or woman, is debatable), and I guess new suggestions if feats or statements for the first key since it is controversial.

And since Udl seemingly missed my suggestion last thread but made his will clear here, I can rephrase most of the stuff.

Reminds me that it's high time for me to apply the Kirby changes too...

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I guess we do this again. Sorry, my nose is running, my eyes are irritate, I'm on a phone, some typos are assured. Of course, stuff like "endless dualities" is an out of context claim referring to a dude saying the world has endless possibilities one can study.

Let's go over these. I admit the profile I made wasn't the best, I was and still am sick, but this...

He was unknown because the world of Journey to the West isn't reflective of the real world in any way. The size of the universe is unknown, but lacks any proof to be large at all.

He has possibly Low 2-C as an interpretation of his stance with dualities, and assumption about creating the unknown sized reality. The former is a very, very iffy thing since he exists outside of duality due to being a nonexistent "non-being", and upkeep ing the laws of reality by shaping the formless yin and yang, but no full on transcendence is given. The latter assumes that the god that he surpassed was Low 2-C for "destroying" the primordial chaos and creating dualities. A Buddha doesn't ever interact with the one who did this, but the assumption is that the god wasn't that special and that they should be above them. The latter died doing it if I recall right however, so it's an assumption that they scale to Pangu's suicide feat.

For Udl, I have answered you concern. I took your sandbox as a reference, but I did the formatting myself. I also offered to reword the summary if you'd prefer.

He doesn't interact with all of time and space. Buddha, the og dude, says that he doesn't have a concept of time and so he doesn't feel the passage of it, which is used to info dump us on the 500 years that passed since Wukong was sealed.

For Wukong's claimed infinite powers, two time this is done, amd: the first time he says that they are wasting his infinite powers on making him look after horses. And he is called out a few lines later - by the narrator mind you - for being arrogant.
5he second time, after he helps some people with no particular immense showings of power, he is flattered by telling him (with a little paraphrasing, I can search the quote up later) "you have saved us with your infinite power". Obviously he showed nothing on this level.

And besides, his feats are nul. Zero. There are two actual feats that he has achieved, those being shaking mountains with a strike and breaking a mountain in to while sending gravel up to miles near it. Nothing else he has ever actually done goes above that.

The 2-A argument here didn't mention how instead of infinite, they use an idom of "as numerous as the sands in" (I can't remember the name of the desert but you get it). These worlds are also not parralel universes, they are inside the world, in the dragon kings territory.



People are described as "infinitely lucky" for not being under the active rule of others, "infinitely merciful" for teaching Wukong his spells, "infinitely wise" and "infinitely divine" based on what they look like, and so on.

Yeah hope you get well soon.

However one of the evidences stated that there countless Dualities that countlessly fluctuates on reality.

And the infinite dragon realms are most likely an infinite connection of Pocket Dimension as the earth was never stated to be infinite yet it could contain the dragon realms

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

However one of the evidences stated that there countless Dualities that countlessly fluctuates on reality.

And the infinite dragon realms are most likely an infinite connection of Pocket Dimension as the earth was never stated to be infinite yet it could contain the dragon realms

I might have missed it I guess? Feel free to copy paste it here.

Assuming that the idom stands for literal infinity, the idea of pocket dimensions is to not take space in the real world, and weren't they contained in the dragons territory?

 

[Greatsage13th]

I might have missed it I guess? Feel free to copy paste it here.

Assuming that the idom stands for literal infinity, the idea of pocket dimensions is to not take space in the real world, and weren't they contained in the dragons territory?

Nope the dragon's territories were contained in the Earth's oceans and since there are no statements for the earth to have infinite size or it's existence as an infinite sized realm. It's safe to conclude the infinite Dragon Realms are infinite connections of individual pocket Dimensions and probably with their own individual space-time just like the heaven.

 

[Nepuko]

They be Big Dum.

 

[Udlmaster]

Eh, infinite power could be flowery considering multiple other of Wukong's characteristics are listed as infinite (such as beauty),

That's not an argument though, that's a proposition, and yes, Beauty can be infinite, as I addressed in the thread in question, as it is a subjective thing.

Additionally, in Buddhism things like that can be infinite, Buddha was said to be infinitly wise, Guanyin was said to be infinite beautiful.

These aren't arguments that disprove anything, this conjecture which doesn't go anywhere and it's not a claim that was proven or can even be proven without author statements, which is what I stated to refuse the conjecture on the matter.

Of course, stuff like "endless dualities" is an out of context claim referring to a dude saying the world has endless possibilities one can study.

Well Endless possibilities would lead to Endless dualities anyway, as any possibility would require its duality to exist.

He was unknown because the world of Journey to the West isn't reflective of the real world in any way. The size of the universe is unknown, but lacks any proof to be large at all.

It's representative of the Daoist and Buddhist cosmology, which should be the presupposition we go with for the obvious reasons, most of all that the Writer was a Buddhist.

The former is a very, very iffy thing since he exists outside of duality due to being a nonexistent "non-being", and upkeep ing the laws of reality by shaping the formless yin and yang, but no full on transcendence is given.

He is completely transcendent of all notions of duality, because it's supposed to be representative of Buddhist Buddha-hood.

To give an example:

“When the Buddha explains these things using such concepts and ideas, people should remember the unreality of all such concepts and ideas. They should recall that in teaching spiritual truths the Buddha always uses these concepts and ideas in the way that a raft is used to cross a river. Once the river has been crossed over, the raft is of no more use, and should be discarded. These arbitrary concepts and ideas about spiritual things need to be explained to us as we seek to attain Enlightenment. However, ultimately these arbitrary conceptions can be discarded. Think Subhuti, isn’t it even more obvious that we should also give up our conceptions of non-existent things?”

This is only one example.

I took your sandbox as a reference, but I did the formatting myself. I also offered to reword the summary if you'd prefer.

However, you shouldn't have, at the very least without my permission. And rewording a summary is barely anything to the research, the formatting, the wording, etc.

For Wukong's claimed infinite powers, two time this is done, amd: the first time he says that they are wasting his infinite powers on making him look after horses. And he is called out a few lines later - by the narrator mind you - for being arrogant.

Actually, as you'd know, I gave three examples of him having Infinite powers.

1 was Wukong himself stating he has infinite power.

Another was the Gods saying Wukong had infinite power.

(Actually, while looking for examples, I found an example of the Yangse river being stated to be infinite in depth and another where there's stated to be Infinite worlds)

Another was an Official thanking Wukong and stating he has Infinite power.

Even the Jade Emperor was stated to possess "The Infinite Dao" by Buddha

for being arrogant.

Being arrogant doesn't equate to him being wrong, this is a false equivolence.

And besides, his feats are nul. Zero. There are two actual feats that he has achieved, those being shaking mountains with a strike and breaking a mountain in to while sending gravel up to miles near it. Nothing else he has ever actually done goes above that.

He literally fights the beings of Heaven, all of which embody concepts of the Universe around them, like the Points on the Compass or Constellations, which you seem to have forgotten. He fought 27 of them, IIRC, which would put him more in the 4-B to 4-A ranges than 7-A.

The 2-A argument here didn't mention how instead of infinite, they use an idom of "as numerous as the sands in" (I can't remember the name of the desert but you get it). These worlds are also not parralel universes, they are inside the world, in the dragon kings territory.

As numerous as the sands in the Ganges, see above how I proved that that means "Infinity" as I told you in that thread.

People are described as "infinitely lucky" for not being under the active rule of others, "infinitely merciful" for teaching Wukong his spells, "infinitely wise" and "infinitely divine" based on what they look like, and so on.

These are the qualities of the Gods, don't try to limit fiction or Deific characters with arbitrary notions on what you think they can and cannot possess. This is fiction.