Reasons why Issho would scale much higher.

[Stefano4444]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3739901#28

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3739901#20

As stated my me and Dr.Fix in the posts liked above, there are several reasons for why Fujitora should scale much higher than at the moment.

1) Doflamingo has consistently saw Issho as a major threat during the entire arc and not just due of his title, bhe knew that Issho was probably one of the few people who could defeat him in a direct confrontation, he even complimented his strength saying that he had heard humors about him and Ryokugyu who had be described as true beasts in terms of power.

2) Akainu would have never send Fujtora to Dressrosa if the Fleet Admiral wasn't more than certain that the guy could win again Doflamingo if the latter started to be a problem for the WG, he could have send Kizaru instead.

3) He had also most likely fought Jack the Drought when the latter tried to rescue Doflamingo during the Zou Arc, along side Tsuru and possible Sengoku.

4) Also him be an Admiral should suggest that his level of strength wouldn't be that far away from the three original admirals, on a level at very least comparable to Top Yonko Commanders, as it wouldn't make sense otherwise size, at difference of the Shichibukai, reputation shouldn't be enough for him to reach that rank, not without the raw strength.

 

[Damage3245]

Is it possible that we're not just rating Doflamingo and Jack the Drought too highly?

Leaving aside the justifications around Aokiji's ice for Doflamingo (which is highly questionable), the main reason Doflamingo is rated so highly right now is because of his feat of restraining Jozu which is closer to a "lifting" strength feat that an AP / striking strength feat.

 

[Stefano4444]

bump

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Damage More likely we're rating everyone too highly since the Quake calc.

I agree with an upgrade for Issho. His feats and comments easily put him much higher (within vers, not so much about energy). Also, Luffy should get upgraded since he's not that far apart from Gear 4 (three times actually). Whichs puts him and others (Including Issho) at small country level.

 

[Stefano4444]

Is it possible that we're not just rating Doflamingo and Jack the Drought too highly?
Leaving aside the justifications around Aokiji's ice for Doflamingo (which is highly questionable), the main reason Doflamingo is rated so highly right now is because of his feat of restraining Jozu which is closer to a "lifting" strength feat that an AP / striking strength feat.

I'm pretty sure it a matter of raw strength overall and not just lifting strength, i mean one thing its tackle someone and force him to say down, another matter is block a moving punch/kick or a guy who is about to strike you.

Also, if Fujitora's scaling is going to be accepted, then Doffy would still keep his tier in anycase, since he has be potrayed to be comparable or at least in around the same league.

 

[CinCameron20]

I absolutely disagree with placing Fujitora higher. If we saw him actually fight Jack (which we didn't, so it's irrelevant), sure--he could scale higher. However, Sengoku and Tsuru were there, and both of them are monsters. All 3 of them combined are obviously going to overpower and send Jack packing.

Fujitora has absolutely no reason to scale to any of the mentioned characters:

• Doflamingo - Already discussed. Fujitora's only "feat" is blocking a very casual kick where Doflamingo threatens to kill him on the spot. Fujitora was later incapable of doing ANYTHING to the bird-cage, and we see him visibly struggle against Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy, both forms being no match for even a weakened Doflamingo
  • Stop suggesting Fujitora =/> Doflamingo. The contrary is supported heavily by the source. And during the same arc, Doflamingo claims that he will eliminate Fujitora once the pirates were dealt with despite having already seen him in action. Where is it supported that Fujitora is even comparable to him? Doflamingo > Fujitora from feats. If this is later proven incorrect, cool, edits.
• Jack - We never saw them fight. We don't know what happened. Tsuru and Sengoku were there, and both are among the strongest marines of their era when excluding Garp himself.
• Luffy (being 1/3 Gear 4th's power) - The actual statement is "Several", which could be a larger number. Earlier when scaling was different, the 3x was used as a low end that was generally accepted. Now we're deciding to upgrade Luffy after the scaling shifted around? No, absolutely not.

@Damage -

Doflamingo's AP Chain (For High 7-A+): Fujitora (via feat) -> Gear 2nd/3rd Luffy -> Gear 4th Luffy (3x, which is anywhere from 3 to 5Gigatons) -> Doflamingo's AP (albeit inferior to G4 Luffy)

Same applies to his High 7-A durability.

Doflamingo's AP chain (For Low 6-B): WB -> Aokiji (1/3 of WB) -> Jozu's AP (from hurting and fighting Aokiji for some time, and the other commanders such as Vista and Ace posing a threat to the Admirals despite obviously being < them) -> Doflamingo's AP (Restraining Jozu)

Doflamingo's Dura chain (For Low 6-B): Doflamingo's AP -> G4 Luffy's AP (Snapping his threads and overpowering a number of his attacks) -> Doflamingo's Durability (taking hits from G4 Luffy)

^The point is: Gear 4th has a superior feat as opposed to Jozu, who was helpless in Doflamingo's grasp, yet Doflamingo could take a number of blows from Luffy while already quite worn down.

Anyways, to sum up Fujitora: 1) He has no reason to scale to Doflamingo. He blocked a very casual kick that was nothing compared to the one where he attempted to decap Kyros, implying he was holding back by a lot. Not to mention Fujitora being incapable of stopping Doflamingo's enclosure of the cage, even w/ a lot of help. 2) We never saw him fight Jack and he had 2 big shots backing him up. One of them being the former Fleet Admiral. 3) Luffy's scaling to Gear 4th w/ his previous gears was previously denied by you same individuals. Now that Fujitora is rated "too low" it becomes a problem? Really?

 

[CinCameron20]

Now responding directly to the points in the OP:

1) Doflamingo heard rumors about Fujitora and they had just met. They exchanged pleasantries with a hint of shade. He had no idea how strong he was, so this statement he made should hold no weight. It was merely used to elaborate on Fujitora's background on how he became an Admiral and to mention Ryokugyo.

• He even complimented Sanji's power before outright stomping him, so should we scale Sanji too? Absolutely not.

2) Sakazuki would have had no idea what to expect from Doflamingo. The Shichibukai are not exactly kept on a close watch at all times (See Crocodile, Moriah, and Doflamingo himself). Miscalculations can happen. This is no reason to assume he knew Fujitora would be able to deal with Doflamingo.

3) Pass. The entire situation is unknown, and until then, it is pointless to discuss.

4) Him becoming an Admiral has no implication of being at the same level as the original 3. Not to mention from a lore standpoint, this would be unlikely as Sakazuki is not Sengoku and would have likely taken different measures in developing new Admirals. His power already puts him bounds above the Vice Admirals (who are turning into fodder post time-skip, sadly), but nothing actually supports that he is an equal to pre time-skip Akainu/Aokiji/Kizaru.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Cin Interesting. I recall you mentioning that level of difficulty for Issho which Duffy cites in previous discussions, yet you aren't know that Duffy already scales high. Also, I'm surprised to see you suddenly doubting Duffy's level of knowledge regarding anything. If he hasn't found out through his considerable channels how powerful Issho is then at a minimum you're denying his OH prowess.

Pretty much everything else there is down play and sorry but in no world is "several" equate to 1000 times stronger.

You also failed to acknowledge that the Marines are stronger than before which means Issho+Ryo >Kuzan.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Fix - Lmfao, here we go again. This is truly becoming tiresome. Reading comprehension 101:

1) Doflamingo states it "wont be easy and easy task" referring to eliminating Fujitora. You seem to have jumped to the conclusion that this solely equates to it being a tough fight, but he'd have to cover up the incident, or else the marines will come after his head, and he'd definitely have wasted the effort of maintaining his status as a Shichibukai.

• Not everything is about direct combat. Planning and having the foresight to deal with the aftermath is essential for his plan to have succeeded. Could he have implied that Fujitora would have been difficult to defeat? Hard to say, but the entire matter in the Bird-cage was blatantly obvious: to prevent the outside world from discovering Doflamingo's intentions and to kill everyone on the inside.
  • The fact that everyone seems to hop on board that this must mean Fuji =/> Doflamingo simply because of this statement and being an Admiral is hilarious when there's evidence supporting showing Doflamingo to have superior abilities (not to mention his own physical feats lay waste to anything Fujitora has done himself)

2) Doflamingo outright states he's "heard rumors". You suddenly think he's going to know Fujitora's Power-level before even meeting him, let alone see him in action? He was quite surprised to see a meteorite shoot from the sky. In fact, he was shocked and infuriated because Fujitora dropped the meteorite on him as well despite Doflamingo currently being clear from investigation.

• You seem to be playing this off as me claiming Doflamingo to be an idiot, when in fact, he'd have no sure-fire way to attain direct information on Fujitora's level of power, especially when he had only become an Admiral a short period beforehand. He's connected to the Underworld, not the damn marines intel outside of using Vergo to misdirect the marines from activities in the New World.

3) "Down-play" - Explain. Because nothing of what I said is wrong.

• Also i brought up the Luffy thing being denied by you guys previously, so again, i'll say "It's a problem now...?" Oddly convenient to change heart on a topic you and Damage spent several threads debating against.

4) Oh that's hilarious to bring up Jinbe's statement where he straight up says the following: "I do not know what has become of him (referring to Aokiji) since, but one thing is for certain--The marines have lost a powerful asset. But the measures the Government subsequently took (The Conscription System) to make up for that loss have granted the marines frightful new power. Listen carefully, if nothing else, you should be aware of two great changes that have shaken the New World in these past two years. The first is that under Fleet Admiral Sakazuki, Marine HQ has become a more powerful force for justice than ever before..." And the rest of the quote pertains to Blackbeard.

• As you can see, from this statement, and any other relating to the Marine's changes post time-skip, it relates to Sakazuki's aggressive push to become a more dominating force of justice. And nothing said that Fuji and Ryo are equal to Aokiji. Merely that the Conscription System (consisting of several nominees) resulted in two new Admirals, who ended up being "monstrous/frightful in power" according to Jinbe and Doflamingo--both who have only HEARD of the event and have never met either of these new Admirals.
  • PS: this is from Chapter 650 and 713 respectively.

Now go ahead and say i'm wrong and that Fujitora is definitely > Doflamingo despite his numerous anti-feats and no source supporting him being even comparable to either Doflamingo or G4 Luffy. I'm waiting.

Edit: Nevermind, I have far more important matters to attend to this special day. Happy ThanksGiving.

 

[Stefano4444]

1) Doflamingo heard rumors about Fujitora and they had just met. They exchanged pleasantries with a hint of shade. He had no idea how strong he was, so this statement he made should hold no weight. It was merely used to elaborate on Fujitora's background on how he became an Admiral and to mention Ryokugyo.

While not the definitive proof, it does support Fujitora's strength since Doffy seen to believe the rumors.

You even stated (in the post above) the fact that Doflamingo though that killing Fujitora wont be easy task (meaning while he was confident, he knew that it would be a serious fight), and while we know exactly know how he was going to do that, it still prove that Fujitora isn't a pushover.

And if Issho was that weak compare to him, then why Doffy didn't simply kill him when it had a chance back at Green Bit (since Issho stopped him from killing Law)? Because he knew that he couldn't just kill him at that moment due of his strength and that it would had be pointless dangerous, so he had to back down.

2) Sakazuki would have had no idea what to expect from Doflamingo. The Shichibukai are not exactly kept on a close watch at all times (See Crocodile, Moriah, and Doflamingo himself). Miscalculations can happen. This is no reason to assume he knew Fujitora would be able to deal with Doflamingo.

That imply that Akainu is not only very incompetent (by sending someone who wouldn't be able to stop Doffy in the worst case scenario) but also very ignorant of the world around him, since it make him seen like he doesn't even had a clue about Doffy's strength

Even if the Marines are not capable to kept a close watch to the Shichibukai, it would be beyond stupid for them to have no idea about their levels of strength, i mean the Yonko aren't watched all the time and the Marines knew what kind of monsters they are (and that they have got a lot stronger since the defeat of Xebec) and you think they wouldn't know about Doffy's strength?

Saying that Akainu didn't know how much strong was Doflamingo is simply laughable, even Aokiji knew that the Marines would had to send an Admiral to deal with Doffy and you think Akainu wouldn't know that? That would be so out of character for him that i don't need to trully explain it.

4) Him becoming an Admiral has no implication of being at the same level as the original 3. Not to mention from a lore standpoint, this would be unlikely as Sakazuki is not Sengoku and would have likely taken different measures in developing new Admirals. His power already puts him bounds above the Vice Admirals (who are turning into fodder post time-skip, sadly), but nothing actually supports that he is an equal to pre time-skip Akainu/Aokiji/Kizaru.

It kinda does, the Marine ranking system is not the same as the Shichibukai, its clear that a certain levels of strength are requred to reach a specific ranks, the mMarines would don't give the rank of Admiral to someone who cannot even fight with a Top Yonko Commander, especially when they are supposed to rappresent the might of the World Goverment.

And considering the type of person is Akainu, he would make sure that the new Admirals would be up to the task, otherwise it would make the Marines looks like a joke.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Stefano -

1) Doflamingo's statement "could" be taken that way. Yes, he might refer to taking Fujitora out to be more difficult, but covering it up is the real challenge. Do you really think Sakazuki would've been like "Okay then" if he discovered Fujitora went MIA after arriving on Dressrosa? Issho did not stop Doflamingo from killing Law. The anime is the only place where we see Doflamingo outright try to kill Law before he realized he was a D. He wanted to capture him and secure Caesar and also use Law to attain immortality, and he couldn't do that just by killing Law. The anime contradicts this at every turn.

• Also, if Doflamingo killed Law on the spot, Fujitora's attention would be on him fully, as his objective for capturing/killing Law would result in failure, and we know he wanted to investigate Doflamingo's case.
  • Doflamingo kept letting Law live up until the point where he knew Law would never consider granting him immortality, so he tried to off him right there.

2) Why is this so hard to believe Sakazuki is ignorant regarding this matter? The Marines had no clue Crocodile was trying to usurp the throne of Alabasta, Kuma's intentions until it was too late, and they didn't know about how Dressrosa fell to Doflamingo in the first place (He was already a Shichibukai 10 years back). How is it hard to believe that Sakazuki, who only recently became Fleet Admiral, would be incapable of fully grasping the level of power Doflamingo is bringing to the table? Doflamingo was not making his true intentions or power apparent to the world.

• The marines did not know his connection to the Underworld until Caesar let it slip, Vergo being a spy for Doflamingo--constantly misdirecting the marines until he revealed himself, and the marines were unaware of Doflamingo's power (Bird-cage), and didn't know he forced the newspaper to state he abandoned the Shichibukai until after the plot-twist. Sakazuki was enraged by this and went to the Gorosei demanding to know why Doflamingo was permitted such authority. He's clearly not in the loop.
  • Also, the marines have come into contact and battled the Yonko* many times in the past. The same can not be said for Doflamingo, who constantly ran from Tsuru until he became a Shichibukai.

4) Sakazuki is the Fleet Admiral and makes decisions based on his standards. The OG 3 Admirals became Admirals under Sengoku, not Sakazuki. The current Admirals have already proven to be >> the Vice Admirals in power, but nothing they've shown even suggests they are at the same level as the previous ones. Nothing supports Fujitora and Ryokugyo being = Aokiji or Kizaru. Different generation, different leader, different standards.

 

[Stefano4444]

1) Doflamingo's statement "could" be taken that way. Yes, he might refer to taking Fujitora out to be more difficult, but covering it up is the real challenge. Do you really think Sakazuki would've been like "Okay then" if he discovered Fujitora went MIA after arriving on Dressrosa?

That a lie, at no point Doflamingo stated that covering it up would had be the most difficulty talk, but considering the kind of resources he had at his disposal, which include Sugar, a little girl that can turn people intro toys and make them be forgotten by the rest of the world, i don't see why that would have be the most difficulty part.

He could just have Sugar touch a dead/dying/defeated Issho and he wouldn't need to do anything else, as Akainu would just forget.

2) Why is this so hard to believe Sakazuki is ignorant regarding this matter? The Marines had no clue Crocodile was trying to usurp the throne of Alabasta, Kuma's intentions until it was too late, and they didn't know about how Dressrosa fell to Doflamingo in the first place (He was already a Shichibukai 10 years back). How is it hard to believe that Sakazuki, who only recently became Fleet Admiral, would be incapable of fully grasping the level of power Doflamingo is bringing to the table? Doflamingo was not making his true intentions or power apparent to the world.

One thing is someone like Mashall D. Teach, who had remained in the shadow for decades despire him having the strength and many opportunities to rise and become a Top Yonko Commander in WB's crew.

Another matter is Donquixote Doflamingo, who was granted the status of Shichibukai because of his strength and his feats in the New World, meaning the Marines should had a rough idea about what kind of people they are dealing with it, i mean they didn't give him 340,000,000 Belly worth Bounty at random.

I don't see even why Doflamingo would even try to hid his true strength as much as possible, he had no real reasons unlike with the SMILE or his criminal activities, plus the fact that Aokiji did know what an Admiral would had needed to deal with Doffy and that Big Mom knew that a Three Sweet Commanders had to be send to defeat Luffy (because he was the one who defeated Doffy) imply that Doffy's strength is pretty well know in the New World.

• The marines did not know his connection to the Underworld until Caesar let it slip, Vergo being a spy for Doflamingo--constantly misdirecting the marines until he revealed himself, and the marines were unaware of Doflamingo's power (Bird-cage), and didn't know he forced the newspaper to state he abandoned the Shichibukai until after the plot-twist. Sakazuki was enraged by this and went to the Gorosei demanding to know why Doflamingo was permitted such authority. He's clearly not in the loop.
  • Also, the marines have come into contact and battled the Yonko* many times in the past. The same can not be said for Doflamingo, who constantly ran from Tsuru until he became a Shichibukai.

Just because they don't had the full list of all his techniques/abilities it doesn't mean they had no idea about his level of strength? You do realize that this can be apply to most if not all pirates (since is not like they tell/show to everyone in the world their full arsenal), you just suggesting that the Marines are that much incompetent, even when Doffy isn't trying to hide his true strength?

I mean, they are at the ones who decide how much worth a bounty is and you want to tell the that even with the assistance of the f*****g Cipher Poll, they have no clue about how much strong Doffy is, despire him be a big deal?

4) Sakazuki is the Fleet Admiral and makes decisions based on his standards. The OG 3 Admirals became Admirals under Sengoku, not Sakazuki. The current Admirals have already proven to be >> the Vice Admirals in power, but nothing they've shown even suggests they are at the same level as the previous ones. Nothing supports Fujitora and Ryokugyo being = Aokiji or Kizaru. Different generation, different leader, different standards.

And what make you think Akainu would lower the previous standards? Considering his sense of duty, his ruthlessness and his obsession of end the "Golden Age of Pirates" once and for all, he would more likely not only keep the previous standards but demand even more from the Marines than Sengoku.

Doing otherwise would weaken the Marines and the World Goverment, and make them look weak to the rest of the world, i cannot believe Akainu would do something like that as it would be completely out of character for him, and it would make questionable the Gorosei's intelligence as they were the ones who wanted to him to become Fleet Admiral despire him show such incompetence, making all of this a massive CIS for Akainu and Gorosei.

 

[CinCameron20]

I was building a wall of text as a response, but now it's turning into a whole discussion about Akainu and Doflamingo--not about Fujitora.

I'm going to keep it simple:

There's no sufficient evidence to suggest that Fujitora should scale to Doflamingo. Debating by using a bunch of guesses and "Akainu wouldn't send someone weaker than Doflamingo..." as a reason is not reliable in the slightest. Trying to use "lore" as a reason for Fuji being OG Admiral level is heavily unsupported.

2 key reasons:

1) Doflamingo's abilities were too much for Fujitora to stop (at least with what he has displayed). He stopped a super casual kick--cool. His meteorites got "noped" by the cage and it surprised him. He couldn't stop/destroy the cage himself despite having assistance from a large number of weaker characters.

2) Fujitora is shown quite pressed after having battled against Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy. Forms that Doflamingo defeated without showing any sign of being exhausted afterwards--even after 783.

If in the future we see Fujitora duke it out with someone we know is Commander-level or even higher, then he gets upgraded, or a new key since this would be 5+ arcs after Dressrosa.

 

[Stefano4444]

1) Doflamingo's abilities were too much for Fujitora to stop (at least with what he has displayed)

The principal reason why Fujitora couldn't do anything was because the status of Shichibukai protected Doffy, he knew that Doffy was involved with many criminal activities (he may be blind but he isn't stupid), but he simply didn't had any authority to arrest him at the moment, since he didn't had any evidence.

Also, i have feel like he didn't act again Doffy on purpose, not only because he trusted Luffy to defeat Doffy, but because he wanted to used this accident to expose the faults of the Shichibukai system to the entire world, before the WG could hide the truth like they did in Alabasta.

2) Fujitora is shown quite pressed after having battled against Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy. Forms that Doflamingo defeated without showing any sign of being exhausted afterwards--even after 783.

I still find highly questionable use that specific fight to prove that Gear 2nd/3rd Luffy => Fujitora.

1) There fight just started and Issho wasn't in such difficulty, and it also never ended without Luffy and Issho use their full strength.

2) Fujitora's apparent fatigue may be due of his screaming to Luffy, since he felt insulted by his attitude, like you would gasp quite a lot if you screamed in anger.

3) If Fujitora was such pushover, then why half of Luffy's crew and his allied wanted him to forget him and keep running?

They knew that he had recovered from his previous fight, that he could had just used his Gear 4th and oneshot Issho with a single attack, Issho was alone (since the other marines where in another place) and Luffy did wanted to fight him (he was tired to run away, like he did during the entire Summit War Arc), if what you say is correct then he wouldn't had be a big deal.

No, it is clear that a fight between Issho and Luffy would had be a long and difficult one, the latter even stated (in the scan like above) that he couldn't defeat him like i always do, which it wouldn't be the case if Luffy could more than likely defeat him with Gear 2nd/3rd.

4) Considering that Fujitora had a majority of Dressrosa above Luffy and company, he was ready to checkmate them from the very beginning, and he only chance mind at the last moment, so he didn't even had a reason to fight seriously since he would have kill them later when they were defenseless.

 

[Dr.Fix]

So to sum up . . .

Akainu knows nothing

Kuzan knows nothing

Jinbei knows nothing

Issho, (who I think it was Cin that gave him advanced OH, correct me if I'm wrong) knows nothing

Duffy with his OH, having fought at Marine Ford, his underworld connections, War-lord connections, Kaido Connections, and CD connections knows nothing

Clashing doesn't count

Briefly stopping the Bird-Cage does not count

Clashing with the same characters doesn't count

And last but not least several now means 1000 . . .

 

[CinCameron20]

The amount of reaching here is unnerving.

@Fix - Clearly Akainu knew nothing if he freaked out over Doflamingo somehow using the newspaper as he saw fit, and then discovered what happened on Dressrosa. He clearly had no clue about Doflamingo's connections, let alone knowing anything about his power. How is it hard to believe? He didn't know about Doflamingo's tricking the masses in order to draw Law in, so he sent Fujitora because he believed it, too.

Kuzan went to save Smoker, as he knew of the events taking place on Punk Hazard due to witnessing it being displayed LIVE by Caesar. What does this have to do with Doflamingo/Fujitora?

Stop discussing the matter all together if you're going to blatantly ignore the quote. I brought up Jinbe's STATEMENT implying NOTHING of what YOU suggest. You said "it clearly means Fuji + Ryo > Aokiji", when he said nothing of the sort. And again, he heard of these things. Information, not direct experience.

What's Doflamingo not know, exactly? Is it even relevant to the topic? His feats countered Fujitora's. Fuji's strongest meteorite shown was incapable of even breaking the cage, and he didn't suspect this would happen until after, and he realized he messed up.

"Clashing"... Where? There was no clash. Seriously, this is turning into a meme.

• All that happened was Fujitora talking about dealing with Doflamingo via abolishing the Shichibukai system, then making him pay for his crimes, and Doflamingo kicks at him, telling him "it sounds like you want me to kill you here and now". They were threatening each other because they do not respect one another. It was a theme from their first meeting.
  • Fujitora can't deal with Doflamingo due to the law preventing him from doing so (despite the bird-cage and attacking citizens immediately rendering this moot, since he's witnessing Doflamingo commit crimes directly), and Doflamingo can't deal with Fujitora because 1) he's trying to use him, and 2) because it'd be stupid to make an enemy of the marines directly when he had no reason to (Until Sugar collapsed and revealed everything).

^Both Doffy and Fuji became aware of Doflamingo's plan coming undone before either started taking action against the other.

"Briefly stopping the bird-cage" You are fully aware this is entirely misleading, correct? Fujitora briefly stopped it with the assistance of hundreds to thousands of individuals including the SHs, Wano samurai, Coliseum fighters, etc etc etc. How does he scale to this? He even states his power is "not much help". and their collective efforts only stopped the cage for literal seconds.

"And last but not least several now means 1000" Again, you ignore my statement. You and Damage are the ones who constantly fought against back scaling Gear 4th to Gear 3rd (3 consecutive discussion threads, I might add). So now it becomes convenient to upgrade Fujitora, you desperately want to upgrade Gear 2nd/3rd Luffy. Don't act so ignorant. It's obvious what your intentions are.

• I have no problem upgrading Luffy based on Doflamingo's statement (Several, using a low end, would imply Luffy with lesser gears is ~1/9th as strong as his Gear 4th, suggesting he is about 503.51851851 Gigatons, or High 6-C), but you seem hell-bent on upgrading Fujitora "cuz he's an Admiral" and no other reason.

High 6-C for Gear 3rd/2nd and Fujitora are ALL I can agree with because of several reasons:

1) Fujitora has no feats to back up being even comparable to the previous generation of Admirals, especially when the leader of the current Admirals is different from the previous one, meaning the standards and methods for acquiring an Admiral were entirely different.

2) Luffy is literally shown capable of matching Fujitora w/ Gear 3rd. A form Doflamingo easily exploited.

I'm about to consult with the staff about this obvious intent if it persists. None of the reasons presented to upgrade Fujitora are supported. It seems incredibly forced by fanboyism and just "cuz he's an Admiral" and nothing more.

@Stefano - I'm not repeating myself. And suggesting Fujitora was strained merely from yelling is a joke considering he was visibly struggling to fight Luffy.

To sum it all up--CORRECTLY:

Nothing supports Fuji being comparable or superior to Doflamingo when using what is presented from the story.

The reasons provided are from the disbelief that Akainu is ignorant to Doflamingo's connections and power despite the story displaying the marines being ignorant of several Shichibukai's power, influence and intentions from the past. Buggy is fodder yet made a Shichibukai by the marines being ignorant, and assuming he is Shanks' peer due to having been on Roger's ship. Crocodile almost took over a country without the marines ever finding out. Kuma was never on the side of the Marines. Hancock uses her beauty to escape from many responsibilities. Doflamingo was already a Shichibukai before he usurped the throne of Dressrosa.

• Somehow Akainu knows Fujitora will be capable of taking in both Doflamingo and Law despite never knowing about Doflamingo using the media as a trap in the first place. False assumptions, my dudes.

There's also the case of the Jack fight. We never see it happen, 2 high tiers were present (one being Fleet Admiral 2 years ago), and Jack's actually the one who gets scaling from the event. Not Fujitora.

There are also several anti-feats debunking Fujitora being = Aokiji and > Doflamingo, and actually having reason to be < Doflamingo, and at best, slightly > Gear 3rd Luffy

• Fujitora's meteorites being destroyed by the cage, resulting in him becoming flustered due to the unexpected event making his attack more wide-spread--meaning he miscalculated.
• Fujitora, even with help, incapable of stopping the bird-cage.
• Fujitora failing to successfully block and Elephant Gun, and being sent flying, and shown to be bruised from the punch.
• Fujitora showing struggle when overpowering a Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy. Their fight was going on for a little while, and Luffy was giving him a head's up every time he attacked.
• Fujitora being shown bruised and battered soon after the clash with the commanders of the Revolutionary army, despite Sabo not being all that much stronger than someone like Jesus Burgess, considering he "had his hands full" with him, and was quite roughed up after their fight.
• Fujitora, even with Sengoku and Tsuru, failing to keep Jack from sinking half of their escort, which held Doflamingo. Also failing to kill Jack with all 3 present.
• He's shown panting immediately after using a named attack to send Luffy flying.

There's no denying ANY of these facts.

Now, regarding the "several" statement. I already agreed scaling Gear 3rd/2nd Luffy from it, obviously, and since Fix now seems to agree with it, we can use the low-end of 9 (as 10+ becomes 'many' by definition) as a factor for Gear 3rd and 2nd Luffy.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Stefano - Also, Doflamingo has the authority to move the Cipher Pol at his will. Using them as a reason is kind of ridiculous.

 

[Schnee_One]

Fujitora was weaker then Gear 3rd and Gear Second Luffy

Doffy completely stomped Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy while weakened

Not hard to see why this doesn't work

 

[CinCameron20]

@Schnee - i mean, I suggest he's at least equal to Gear 3rd, since he clashed him and even pushed him back.

But yeah, Doffy wrecks Fujitora via combative feats.

 

[Schnee_One]

Doffy still stomped that form while weakened so my point stands regardless

 

[CinCameron20]

I'm going to inquire Damage and Calace on their opinion. Though Damage was the first one here and briefly expressed their opinion.

 

[Dr.Fix]

>>There are also several anti-feats debunking Fujitora being = Aokiji and > Doflamingo, and actually having reason to be < Doflamingo, and at best, slightly > Gear 3rd Luffy

I never once said Issho=Kuzan>Duffy. I simply arguing against the notion that Ishho is so radically weaker while pointing out all the many MANY parralels that all three are comparable. 1000 times does not make sense narratuvely speaking with everything Oda has presented.

Not going to bother with the rest of it, least not right now. I don't have the free time for that wall of text.

 

[CinCameron20]

I already suggested a solution since you now agree that there is only a "several" gap between Gear 2nd/3rd Luffy and Gear 4th unlike previously discussed. Though it was buried in my last wall of text.

Low end would be 1/9th of Gear 4th (since several generally suggests at least 3, but not many), thus this would be somewhere in the middle of High 6-C: Around 503 Gigatons.

This would affect anyone scaling from High 7-A or High 7-A+.

High 7-A would be changed to simply High 6-C, and High 7-A+ would be changed to "Possibly Low 6-B". (High 7-A+ came from low end Gear 4th Luffy scaling, hence why most characters scaled to this)

Anyone scaling from Gear 3rd Luffy (which leads to Fuji -> Sabo -> Burgess) would be High 6-C. Anyone scaling from Gear 4th Luffy would be Possibly Low 6-B.

Opinions?

 

[CinCameron20]

Only change that would have to be made is that we actually do give Law a new key since it makes little sense for him to actually keep going against both Fujitora and Doflamingo, who are dropping the tier 7 rating if this goes though.

 

[Dr.Fix]

I don't know where you're getting that from. Only reference I recall was saying Gear 4 was 3 times stronger. I never said he was more or less in any discussions I recall.

Anyway, you're ratings are too low. It would be

Non-Gear4 Luffy: 1.5 teratons ie small country level

Issho, Law, & Duffy: Small country level via trading hits with Luffy and in Duffy's case not being KO's by Gear 4.

There are likely mny others (Sanji, Zoro, Peroin etc). I'd say all the 7-As but I don't want to over-shoot. Need to have actual scaling.

All 7-A and high 7-A ratings should be removed. It makes no sense to keep them any more than to tag At Least City level to Akainu.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Fix - the statement was Several: not 3. We used 3 as a low end for increasing from Gear 2nd/3rd to Gear 4th. We would do the same here. It would be back-scaling instead, so the low-end would be a factor of 1:9.

(We had High 7-A for Gear 3rd already, and at least 7-A+ for Gear 2nd before changes, so Gear 4th would scale anywhere from 3 GT to 5+GT, so High 7-A+ to 6-C. Low end being High 7-A+ since we agreed to use Gear 2nd as the base, and a 3x multiplier)

(For the 9 i used, it is for the back-scale. Instead, Gear 2nd/3rd Luffy would be 1/9th Gear 4th, since that's the low end and we don't have a reason to suggest more. 3x is a high-end in this case, so High 6-C, not Low 6-B)

The standard changed, since we're scaling back from Gear 4th. Not scaling above Gear 2nd/3rd.

 

[CinCameron20]

Also, Doflamingo isn't being scaled from this. He is getting his Low 6-B from Aokiji and Jozu.

Luffy's getting his Low 6-B from pummeling Doflamingo w/ Gear 4th.

Doflamingo gets the High 7-A+ from being >>>>> Gear 2nd/3rd Luffy, and taking hits from Gear 4th Luffy.

 

[CinCameron20]

7-As would not be affected, as the only one with any justification is Law as he fought Doflamingo and Fujitora (albeit both were mostly off-panel). Zoro and Sanji certainly don't have a reason to scale to Gear 3rd or Fujitora, let alone Gear 4th/Doflamingo.

Zoro would scale to Hawkins in Wano, but that's sketchy because of Hawkins' having quite literally no feats because he uses his ability to transfer damage, and his cards of fate also likely having an affect on his ability's potency.

 

[CinCameron20]

Couple examples:

Current High 7-A example after changes (Sabo):

AP: "Likely Large Island level (battled against Fujitora, and though Fujitora held back, neither of them were pressured by the end of the engagement. Later, the commanders of the Revolutionary Army engaged Fujitora and Ryokugyo in combat, and though details are unknown, Fujitora is next seen with some bandages, implying it was no easy battle)"

Durability: "Likely Large Island level (Took hits from Fujitora, and also tanked hits from Burgess, who could nearly match him in physical strength)"

Example of a current High 7-A+, Possibly Low 6-B after changes(Doflamingo):

Tier: "High 6-C with Black Knight (Similar reasons), Low 6-B himself (Similar reasons, minus the stuff regarding one-shotting the 7-As like Sanji and Smoker)"

AP: "Large Island level with Black Knight (Could hurt Luffy, who required Gear 2nd to defeat it), Possibly Small Country level+ himself (Easily overpowered Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy numerous times, and Fujitora could do nothing more than slow and briefly stop the enclosure of the bird-cage with assistance. Managed to ensnare Jozu mid-charge and held him in place with his threads)."

Dura: "Unknown with Black Knight (Same reasons), Small Country level+ himself (Came out of marineford with nothing but a small bruise to show for it. Tanked being frozen by Kuzan with no debilitating affects to himself. Tanked a large number of blows from Gear 2nd Luffy, referring to his strikes as "fast, but lacking power" despite already being wounded beforehand. Withstood several strikes from Gear 4th Luffy, who had become physically powerful enough to snap Doflamingo's threads with a flex and could overpower his awakened attacks)."


Also, if there's a need to further understand the current scaling chain (which has at least... 3 or 4 branches), just ask.

 

[Damage3245]

> Also, Doflamingo isn't being scaled from this. He is getting his Low 6-B from Aokiji and Jozu.

I feel like that's something I'll need to address in a separate thread so I won't go on about it here.

But focusing specifically on Fujitora, I don't agree that he should be upgraded at this point.

 

[Stefano4444]

Fujitora was weaker then Gear 3rd and Gear Second Luffy

Where and when? In which point in the fight it is show/stated that Luffy was overwhelming Issho with his "superior" strength in his Gear 2nd/3rd? This is such stupid bullcrap, that i really want to ask you if you even see/watch the fight in the Manga/Anime.

If that was the case, then explain to me why his crew and allieds wanted to him to stop fight and run away, if Issho was such fodder? Why Luffy stated that he couldn't defeat him normally, if Issho was < Gear 2nd/3rd, was stop him from just oneshot him like he did with a Pacifista?

This is just plain downplay, and nothing else.

Doffy completely stomped Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy while weakened

Not a complete stomp since unlike with Kaido, Luffy was able to still hold his own (as they were able to exchange punches between each other), despire Doffy be overall stronger than him even in his weakened state.

 

[Dr.Fix]

>Though Issho held back

Conjecture until we see Issho dominating Sabo, which is unlikely at this point

>Near equal in strength

Burges seemed considerably weaker

>Sanji doesn't have a reason to scale

>One-shot Sanji

Inaccurate representations. Duffy was stronger no doubt but do not paint it as Kaido VS Luffy. Sanji legit tanked a kicj from Duffy and a slicing moe via his threads and was ready to keep fighting. Duffy also complimented him on his power while he was "blocking" (Not to be confused with tanking) his attacks.

I may have to re-read those chaptears again but I don't remember Luffy being in Gear 3 when he tanked two of Duffy's hits.

Having gone through Dressorosa recently I don't see a single instance of Duffy one-shotting the heros, nor is there much in tanking. He blocks or evades for the most part and everyone keeps getting back up after hit hits. The few times he does get hit he always took at least some damage via Red Hawk, Shambles, Gamma knife, and of course Gear 4

 

[CinCameron20]

@Fix - Yeah, I did mention that Sabo contributed to actually hurting him in a later fight, and the "holding back" is irrelevant since both were basically unscathed by the end of their first skirmish. Sabo already scales to Fujitora.

• Sabo did not have an easy time defeating Burgess, as made apparent when he was bruised up after their fight, and Burgess could still move around and attempt at trying to kill him. Not to mention Burgess withstanding the final attack and tracking Sabo back to the Rev. Army's home base.

Doflamingo never kicked Sanji, ever. Where is this coming from? Re-read the fight before making such false statements. The fight in a nut-shell:

• Sanji comes in with Diable Jambe, Doflamingo lifts his leg to block the kick. Sanji goes in for another kick, Doflamingo shifts out of the way and slaps him aside before going after the other SHs. Sanji manages to get back up and attacks Doflamingo again, then Doflamingo stops his movements and finally gives him his full attention. He uses Overheat and it's clear that Sanji is screwed until Law swaps his location with Doflamingo.
  • Doflamingo was going to execute Sanji on the spot with one attack, pretty apparent.

Red-Hawk is already agreed to bypass durability to an extent because it sends a fiery explosion through the target and burns them on the inside. It does not apply to G2 Luffy's standard AP, as he was never able to hurt Doflamingo again with other G2 attacks (save for attacks directly to his torso where Law stabbed him). Gamma Knife negs durability. Gear 4th already scales from Doflamingo.

• Doflamingo One-shot Smoker.
• Doflamingo slapped Sanji away, then was going to execute him when Sanji persisted in stopping him.
• Doflamingo punched Luffy in the face (C.745) which temporarily left him on the ground unable to move until after he got booted out of the palace by Pica.
• Doflamingo kicked Luffy in the face (C.760) then had Bellamy cut him. Luffy was on the ground unmoving for some time before the fight continued in the next chapter.

Just for a reference, Doflamingo himself only ever hits Luffy a total of 2 times before he got stabbed by Gamma Knife. And those attacks resulted in the largest injuries Luffy had before they engaged 1v1 in C.782

 

[Dr.Fix]

misremembering the fight there .....

Sanji attacked Duffy and Duffy blocked as shown here .

Duffy then evaded the next attac k rather than trying to block it.

He follows up with a laceration move , which Sanji quickly brushes off.

This time Duffy had to block with his feathers and noted for the second time Sanji's power.

At this point he does as you said go for a 2 move combination of restraining Sanji then using his fire whip. The results of which are never seen since Law reacts in time to Duffy's attack.

So yes, I misremembered the kick (Must have been law I was thinking of) while you misremembered that he ever "one-shot" sanji. At best he would have killed Sanji in three moves but that's unproven and a lack of evidence does not constitute evidence.

 

[CinCameron20]

You say "3 moves" yet:

• one of them wasn't an attack, just a grapple.

• you state Sanji "brushed" off an attack, yet:
  • a) he was clearly injured considering he was recoiled and bleeding quite a lot (having been treated by chopper immediately after the encounter, covered in bandages), so it would be a stamina feat if anything, and
  • b) Doflamingo clearly knew this wouldn't take Sanji out, as he was taunting him and didn't even bother to give him is attention after giving evidence that he knew Sanji was still conscious.

• Doflamingo "having" to block Sanji's attack says nothing since he didn't even struggle and was unscathed by the attack.

• Doflamingo turned his attention to Sanji fully after grappling him, and was about to strike him with Overheat--after being given several implications of him helpless and possibly going to be incapacitated--if not killed by the attack.

Considering how Overheat was going to result in a fatal strike, or at least an incapacitating one (assuming Sanji survives), Doflamingo actually was going to one-shot Sanji if Law didn't save him.

Again: 3 moves? 1st was a casual strike that he knew wasn't going to keep Sanji down, 2nd was grapple--not even an attack--and 3rd was going to be a one-shot from what was being suggested.

Trying to scale Sanji to someone who outright stomped him? Why...?

 

[The_Calaca]

Okay. TL;DR, please.

 

[Dr.Fix]

^I dunno what that means or who it is directed towards. What exactly are your thoughts on the topic?

 

[The_Calaca]

I need a summary of the arguments.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Pro Upgrade

Issho fought Gear 3 Luffy, which should put him at 1/3 the strength of Gear 4 which puts him at 1.5 teratons.

The Marines lost Kuzan and yet are stated to be stronger. Issho+Ryo should be >Kuzan which puts Issho at 2.23 teratons

He was comfortable threatening Duffy and briefly clashed with him at the same time.

Duffy acknowledged his strength as something that would be difficult to defeat.

Akainu sent Issho to Dressrosa beleiving he could handle matters with both Law and Duffy now being fugitives of the WG.

Kuzan beleived an Admiral would be needed to deal with Duffy (Somewhat circular reasoning)

Issho breifly stopped the birdcage from moving. Something that wasn't happening without his intervention.

He fought till a draw with Sabo (Albeit Sabo's rating hasn't changed to Low 6-B either despite his position and him having the powers of Ace)

He fought alognside Duffy Against Law

As an admiral he should be comparable to them based on rank.

He fought off-panel with Jack

Against upgrade

Akainu knows nothing about their power levels

Issho knows nothing about power levels

Duffy also knows nothing

Kuzan knows nothing

Their clash doesn't count

Issho was unable to stop the birdcage for more than a moment and even then with team support

His meteors were uselss.

The possibility of unknowns in the draft surpass Issho's individual power

Duffy one-shot Sanji and is far beyond Luffy in gears 1-3 (Demonstratedly false. At best Cin has an Argument From Belief of what could have happened under ideal circumstances).

Several in this case should be 1/9th since we're scaling backwards.

I actually agree with Cin on some points. Issho is not stronger than Duffy and he isn't as powerful as Akainu or Kuzan just because of title (that argument makes no sense when both were considered for a position above Admiral). GIven the huge body of evidence mentioned above, I disagree that the difference is 1000 times or even 9 times. It doesn't make sense for them to be that far apart from the high tiers given Duffy is likley closer to gear 3 than he is Gear 4.

 

[The_Calaca]

I'd prefer if someone in the opposition list their reasons. Your summary for it doesn't seem to be quite precise.