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Reasons why Issho would scale much higher.
- Thread starter Stefano4444
- Start date
- 762
- 438
@The Calaca
The original arguement I believe was to upgrade Fujitora to Doflamingo, the previous Admirals or to a Yonkou Commander like Jack. However, CinCameron disagree because:
CinCameron did agree on an upgrade and suggest a method. And this is what he said:
The reason why he uses a factor of 1:9 is stated here:
The original arguement I believe was to upgrade Fujitora to Doflamingo, the previous Admirals or to a Yonkou Commander like Jack. However, CinCameron disagree because:
- Fujitora's meteorites being destroyed by the cage, resulting in him becoming flustered due to the unexpected event making his attack more wide-spread--meaning he miscalculated.
- Fujitora, even with help, incapable of stopping the bird-cage.
- Fujitora failing to successfully block an Elephant Gun, and being sent flying, and shown to be bruised from the punch.
- Fujitora showing struggle when overpowering a Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy. Their fight was going on for a little while, and Luffy was giving him a head's up every time he attacked.
- Fujitora being shown bruised and battered soon after the clash with the commanders of the Revolutionary army, despite Sabo not being all that much stronger than someone like Jesus Burgess, considering he "had his hands full" with him, and was quite roughed up after their fight.
- Fujitora, even with Sengoku and Tsuru, failing to keep Jack from sinking half of their escort, which held Doflamingo. Also failing to kill Jack with all 3 present.
- He's shown panting immediately after using a named attack to send Luffy flying.
- Fujitora has no feats to back up being even comparable to the previous generation of Admirals, especially when the leader of the current Admirals is different from the previous one, meaning the standards and methods for acquiring an Admiral were entirely different.
CinCameron did agree on an upgrade and suggest a method. And this is what he said:
- I have no problem upgrading Luffy based on Doflamingo's statement (Several, using a low end, would imply Luffy with lesser gears is ~1/9th as strong as his Gear 4th, suggesting he is about 503.51851851 Gigatons, or High 6-C)"
The reason why he uses a factor of 1:9 is stated here:
- The statement was Several: not 3. We used 3 as a low end for increasing from Gear 2nd/3rd to Gear 4th. We would do the same here. It would be back-scaling instead, so the low-end would be a factor of 1:9.
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Thank you.
But why would Gear 3rd be High 6-C? If the statement goes about a 3x multiplier at least, that'd make G3 around 1.5 GT. There's no clear gap between G2 and G3 either, so we can't exactly measure that.
But why would Gear 3rd be High 6-C? If the statement goes about a 3x multiplier at least, that'd make G3 around 1.5 GT. There's no clear gap between G2 and G3 either, so we can't exactly measure that.
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@Calaca - I only agreed to scaling 1/9th (Around 500some Gigatons, High 6-C) because that's the low-end if we use the "Several" statement. Why the number changed: We're BACKSCALING from Gear 4th to lower gears, so we use a low end just like when we previously upscaled from Gear 2nd/3rd (3x being to low end) to Gear 4th.
The direct statement from Doflamingo suggests "...to raise his power level several times beyond its limit" and since we're now changing the scaling from G2/3 -> G4 to instead G4 -> G2/3, we use the low end as we have been doing. Therefore, 1/9th bare minimum.
There's no reason to currently assume Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy to be 1/3 Gear 4th when we see him struggle so heavily against individuals who are weaker physically to his G4 forms (Doflamingo, Biscuit soldiers, Cracker, Katakuri all near-stomping his Gear 2nd/3rd, yet Gear 4th overwhelms them), and also cuz "3" would be a high-end in this argument, when it could just as easily be 1/5... 1/7... 1/9.
The direct statement from Doflamingo suggests "...to raise his power level several times beyond its limit" and since we're now changing the scaling from G2/3 -> G4 to instead G4 -> G2/3, we use the low end as we have been doing. Therefore, 1/9th bare minimum.
There's no reason to currently assume Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy to be 1/3 Gear 4th when we see him struggle so heavily against individuals who are weaker physically to his G4 forms (Doflamingo, Biscuit soldiers, Cracker, Katakuri all near-stomping his Gear 2nd/3rd, yet Gear 4th overwhelms them), and also cuz "3" would be a high-end in this argument, when it could just as easily be 1/5... 1/7... 1/9.
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@Calaca - Just a rough summary of my argument:
- Akainu is suggested by the OP to be aware that Fuji could handle Doflamingo, but there's no lore implication or reason to believe as such, especially since Akainu was ignorant to the deception Doffy applied to the news, among many other shichibukai exploiting their status w/out the marine's knowledge.
- Doflamingo seeing Fujitora as threat is never stated to be via power, and we know that Fujitora intends to screw Doffy over politically, and Doflamingo killing him off would set off the marines if they discovered he went missing (unless he used Sugar), which would make it difficult to deal with him. No reason to assume Fuji = Doffy based on this.
- Fujitora's incapability to deal with the cage suggesting Doflamingo's ability > his both physically and DF-wise.
- Fujitora = G2/3 in power, yet Doflamingo low-diffing G2 and 3 while injured, referring to the former as being incredibly weak. Suggesting Doffy >> G2/3 Luffy = Fujitora anyways.
- Fuji vs Jack is also a poor argument as we never see them fight and Tsuru + Sengoku were present, so there's no implication Fuji even engaged Jack directly.
- "He's an Admiral" - Not a reliable argument.
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Also comparing Sabo to Ace just cuz he has his DF makes no sense if people need to develop their abilities over time, and Luffy gradually grew as he learned to use his DF.
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I agree with Cin's points regarding Issho and Sabo's ratings.
But I'm really concerned about Luffy's matter. If we have been using the low end for the multiplier (3x) before, we shouldn't change it. The 3x is the lowball. Otherwise, we'd be assuming Luffy gets 9x stronger with Gear 4th and we'll have to apply that once he starts scaling to something bigger.
Take this as an example:
We let Luffy have a 9x multiplier between Gear 3rd and Gear 4th, making Third backscale to High 6-C. But then he does a 6-B feat scaling to the 13.5 Teratons WITH Third. We'd have to scale him to 121.5 Teratons (High 6-B) in Gear 4th because that's the accepted end for it, rather than using the already accepted 3x multiplier end which, again, is the actual lowball here.
But I'm really concerned about Luffy's matter. If we have been using the low end for the multiplier (3x) before, we shouldn't change it. The 3x is the lowball. Otherwise, we'd be assuming Luffy gets 9x stronger with Gear 4th and we'll have to apply that once he starts scaling to something bigger.
Take this as an example:
We let Luffy have a 9x multiplier between Gear 3rd and Gear 4th, making Third backscale to High 6-C. But then he does a 6-B feat scaling to the 13.5 Teratons WITH Third. We'd have to scale him to 121.5 Teratons (High 6-B) in Gear 4th because that's the accepted end for it, rather than using the already accepted 3x multiplier end which, again, is the actual lowball here.
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The matter is that we need to take the bare minimum for each case since we can't argue any higher. So backscaling, we use 1/9. Upscaling, we'd use 3x.
It would probably be best to give Luffy an "At least High 6-C" for his Dressrosa onwards key, suggesting he should be "At least this strong" since we're going off minimums, and the same would apply for an event where Luffy gets the 3x scaling (assuming he does something to scale to 13.5 TT for example), he'd be "At least 6-B (at minimum 40.5TT)".
It would probably be best to give Luffy an "At least High 6-C" for his Dressrosa onwards key, suggesting he should be "At least this strong" since we're going off minimums, and the same would apply for an event where Luffy gets the 3x scaling (assuming he does something to scale to 13.5 TT for example), he'd be "At least 6-B (at minimum 40.5TT)".
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Okay, I'll concede on that.
How'd his profile look like, then?
How'd his profile look like, then?
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,088
- 5,182
- Thread starter
- #50
Again, this isn't Blackbeard who was waiting the right opportunity to become a Yonko, Doflamingo was already a top dog in the New World for decades now, Doffy had no reason to make himself looks like a weak to the rest of the world, say that the Marines wouldn't know about his level of strength would be absurd, not when they seen to be knowledgeable to the levels of strength of other pirates.CinCameron20 said:
Sengoku knew that Big Mom and Kaido had become a lot stronger after Xebec's death (despire either of them haven't done anything rilevant for years), the Marines knew that for defeat Whitebeard they needed all their strongest members (despire all his years of inactivity to the point that many had forgot about his true power), Kizaru knew that Edward Weevil had the strength of a younger WB (despire the fact that they haven't meet each other).
And you want to tell me Akainu, who is supposed to be a marine veteran dedicate to eradicate the Pirate Age, would be so clueless about Doffy?
Neither it was stated to be due of his political status only.CinCameron20 said:
And considering his track record of effortlessly hide the proof of his crimes, his status as Shichibukai and that as a Celestial Dragons he knew many WG's most dangerous secrets (like the existence of Im-sama), why do you really think hide the corpse of an Admiral would be the most difficult part?
Especially if Doffy can just blackmail the WG like he did before, and is not like the Gorosei would risk the balance just to make sure Issho's death is avenged, and Akainu would do the same.
Well i didn't see Gear 4th Luffy shatter the Birdcage too, it doesn't mean he cannot do it.CinCameron20 said:
Also, wasn't the general consensus that the Birdcage was a special techinque that cannot scale to Doffy's standard techniques/abilities (with the exception of his Awakening)?
Again, that battle didn't even conclude properly and there is nothing that suggest that Issho was using his full strength again Luffy.CinCameron20 said:
Also you again ignoring Luffy claiming that he couldn't defeat him like he always to do (acknowledging that he could have potentially lost the fight even with his full strength, or at least he wouldn't had be easy) and that everyone on Luffy's side wanted him to stop fighting him and escape (which wouldn't had happen if Issho was only that strong).
No, it would be laughable to think that Akainu would had promote to Admiral someone that can be beated by Mid-High Tiers in the New World, and there is no reason to assume the standard would have be lower because Akainu was now in charge.CinCameron20 said:
Even if the new admirals and old admirals aren't equal, the formers should still be comparable to a certain degree, enough so that it make sense for them to be Admirals.
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^ I'm not repeating myself just for you to make the same bigoted argument with no care for the facts.
No, it was argued against that the Bird Cage is vastly above Doflamingo's combative abilities. And Luffy never claimed to be incapable of winning. Outright lies.
No, it was argued against that the Bird Cage is vastly above Doflamingo's combative abilities. And Luffy never claimed to be incapable of winning. Outright lies.
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,088
- 5,182
- Thread starter
- #52
Then you also must acknowledge that you cannot use the Birdcage as an proof of Fujitora be weaker than Doffy, as Issho would still be unable to destroy it in that case.CinCameron20 said:
You're putting words into my mouth now, i never stated that Luffy claimed to be incapable of winning, but that it could have been a hard fight that he could POTENTIALLY lost, meaning he wasn't certain to win even with his Gear 4th.CinCameron20 said:
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Oh... my god... You're not reading.
Bird Cage is NOT ever suggested > Doflamingo's other abilities.
... "Also you again ignoring Luffy claiming that he couldn't defeat him like he always to do" - You outright said this. BULLS--- i'm putting words into your mouth. And "potentially losing" actually supports my point that they are close in power. If Fuji were Doffy's level in power, he'd have no problem stomping Gear 2nd and 3rd just like he did with minimal effort.
I'm done discussing this nonsense.
Bird Cage is NOT ever suggested > Doflamingo's other abilities.
... "Also you again ignoring Luffy claiming that he couldn't defeat him like he always to do" - You outright said this. BULLS--- i'm putting words into your mouth. And "potentially losing" actually supports my point that they are close in power. If Fuji were Doffy's level in power, he'd have no problem stomping Gear 2nd and 3rd just like he did with minimal effort.
I'm done discussing this nonsense.
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Luffy and Doflamingo are the ones who would undergo the most dramatic changes:
Doflamingo: "At least High 6-C with Black Knight, Possibly Low 6-B himself"
AP: "At least Large Island level with Black Knight (Capable of hurting Luffy, who was forced to use his Gear 2nd to ultimately defeat it), Possibly Small Country level+ himself (Capable of stopping Jozu mid-charge and held him in place. Broke free from Aokiji's ice. Fought in Marineford against the WB alliance and commanders for the majority of the war. Easily overpowered Gear 2nd Luffy, and could successfully harm him using kicks without Haki despite being grievously wounded)."
Durability: "(skipping BK cuz no change), Possibly Small Country level+ himself (Could take hits from Gear 4th Luffy, who at the time possessed the physical might to easily snap Doflamingo's threads, and even overpower most of his attacks. Withstood being frozen by Aokiji with no debilitating affects outside of being short on breath. Came out of the Marineford war after combating against the WB alliance and commanders with only a small bruise on the cheek by the end of the conflict)."
For Luffy: "(skipping base), At least High 6-C with Gear 2nd and 3rd, Possibly Low 6-B with Gear 4th"
AP: "(Skipping Base), At least Large Island level with Gear 2nd and 3rd (Significantly stronger than base. Luffy's limit in power before unleashing Gear 4th was regarded as being around "Several times" beyond his earlier gears, suggesting Gear 2nd and 3rd to at least be 1/9 of Gear 4th's power), Possibly Small Country level+ with Gear 4th (Physically stronger than Doflamingo, and could snap his threads, which were previously seen capable of retraining the likes of Jozu)"
Dura: "At least Large Island level normally (Tanked attacks from Fujitora, who in turn could clash evenly with Gear 3rd strikes), Possibly Small Country level+ with Gear 4th (No-sold a haki-infused kick by Doflamingo, and his fist withstood coming into contact with Doflamingo's God-Thread attack)"
All flat High 7-As will scale to High 6-C.
Law will have justification to scale to Possibly High 6-C (Maybe a new key for Dressrosa, unless the whole Vergo thing is simply attributed to the heart situation)
All High 7-A+, Poss Low 6-B will just be Poss Low 6-B.
Doflamingo: "At least High 6-C with Black Knight, Possibly Low 6-B himself"
AP: "At least Large Island level with Black Knight (Capable of hurting Luffy, who was forced to use his Gear 2nd to ultimately defeat it), Possibly Small Country level+ himself (Capable of stopping Jozu mid-charge and held him in place. Broke free from Aokiji's ice. Fought in Marineford against the WB alliance and commanders for the majority of the war. Easily overpowered Gear 2nd Luffy, and could successfully harm him using kicks without Haki despite being grievously wounded)."
Durability: "(skipping BK cuz no change), Possibly Small Country level+ himself (Could take hits from Gear 4th Luffy, who at the time possessed the physical might to easily snap Doflamingo's threads, and even overpower most of his attacks. Withstood being frozen by Aokiji with no debilitating affects outside of being short on breath. Came out of the Marineford war after combating against the WB alliance and commanders with only a small bruise on the cheek by the end of the conflict)."
For Luffy: "(skipping base), At least High 6-C with Gear 2nd and 3rd, Possibly Low 6-B with Gear 4th"
AP: "(Skipping Base), At least Large Island level with Gear 2nd and 3rd (Significantly stronger than base. Luffy's limit in power before unleashing Gear 4th was regarded as being around "Several times" beyond his earlier gears, suggesting Gear 2nd and 3rd to at least be 1/9 of Gear 4th's power), Possibly Small Country level+ with Gear 4th (Physically stronger than Doflamingo, and could snap his threads, which were previously seen capable of retraining the likes of Jozu)"
Dura: "At least Large Island level normally (Tanked attacks from Fujitora, who in turn could clash evenly with Gear 3rd strikes), Possibly Small Country level+ with Gear 4th (No-sold a haki-infused kick by Doflamingo, and his fist withstood coming into contact with Doflamingo's God-Thread attack)"
All flat High 7-As will scale to High 6-C.
Law will have justification to scale to Possibly High 6-C (Maybe a new key for Dressrosa, unless the whole Vergo thing is simply attributed to the heart situation)
All High 7-A+, Poss Low 6-B will just be Poss Low 6-B.
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That seems fine, I guess.
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I can't agree with upgrading the characters that much.
I'll try and make some time to discuss this later tonight.
Right now I'll say first off that this line:
> Withstood being frozen by Aokiji with no debilitating affects outside of being short on breath.
Should not be counted as a durability feat.
Nico Robin and Luffy were both frozen similarly and we don't count that as a Low 6-B durability feat for them.
I'll try and make some time to discuss this later tonight.
Right now I'll say first off that this line:
> Withstood being frozen by Aokiji with no debilitating affects outside of being short on breath.
Should not be counted as a durability feat.
Nico Robin and Luffy were both frozen similarly and we don't count that as a Low 6-B durability feat for them.
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Here's the thing though, Duffy is NOT equal to gear 4. He wasn't KO'd in one hit (Less you count KKG) but then neither was any opponent Duffy faced.
Luffy, Law, & Sanji were all able to resist his attacks to some degree. Again I'm not suggesting they are equal in power, just that the difference is not kaido VS Luffy worthy as @Cin presents it.
Now Duffy wasn't KO'd by Gear 4 either (Again not counting KKG), but he is otherwise powerless against it. Duffy evaded or guarded against al the above but Gear 4 Luffy didn't have to against Duffy because the difference in power was so vast. He couldn't even block Luffy's attacks fully so it became a stamina game.
This probably applies to katakuri as well. It doesn't make sense for Luffy to have endured such a beating from characters 9 times stroger than him
This is why I think the three times makes more sense. They would be in the same tier that way just not equal.
Example:
Gear 3=33, Duffy=50, Gear 4=100
There's just a bigger difference between Gear Luffy and Duffy then there is Duffy and Gear 3/etc.
And before he says it no, a lack of evidence is not evidence. Cin can cite Duffy was weakened but he cannot measure a healthy Duffy being that much stronger.
Luffy, Law, & Sanji were all able to resist his attacks to some degree. Again I'm not suggesting they are equal in power, just that the difference is not kaido VS Luffy worthy as @Cin presents it.
Now Duffy wasn't KO'd by Gear 4 either (Again not counting KKG), but he is otherwise powerless against it. Duffy evaded or guarded against al the above but Gear 4 Luffy didn't have to against Duffy because the difference in power was so vast. He couldn't even block Luffy's attacks fully so it became a stamina game.
This probably applies to katakuri as well. It doesn't make sense for Luffy to have endured such a beating from characters 9 times stroger than him
This is why I think the three times makes more sense. They would be in the same tier that way just not equal.
Example:
Gear 3=33, Duffy=50, Gear 4=100
There's just a bigger difference between Gear Luffy and Duffy then there is Duffy and Gear 3/etc.
And before he says it no, a lack of evidence is not evidence. Cin can cite Duffy was weakened but he cannot measure a healthy Duffy being that much stronger.
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,088
- 5,182
- Thread starter
- #58
Then why the f**k you had be using THAT to show that Issho is inferior to Doflamingo in term of physical strength and devil fruit?!CinCameron20 said:
They are closer in power when they are compared at their full strength, meaning Luffy with Gear 4th and not Gear 2nd/3rd.CinCameron20 said:
And neither Issho was struggle during the battle, and it hasn't even last enouh to give that impression, it started and ended in a few panels, not enough to prove that Luffy Gear 2nd/3rd = Issho.
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@Fix - I actually state Gear 4th in power is > Doflamingo. Your point regarding that doesn't matter because G4 is scaling to Doffy in this chain, not the reverse.
Sanji was going to die from a singular direct attack. Law required his sword to even defend himself, otherwise ALL shown attacks completely pierced his body and exited the other side. Luffy has blunt resist, but Doflamingo could still hurt him with normal kicks.
Huh, this discussion is starting to sound famil--o wait, it's the same shit that i already got through many threads ago. Sick of it at this point. Give up.
@Stef - Cuz there's no other clash between Fuji and Doffy's power. What else could there be? The kick was a threat, before you bring that up. And suggesting G4 vs the Bird Cage despite neither coming into contact is big memes. And Luffy never suggests anything of the sort regarding possibly losing to Fuji. Just that "They are not going to run from the Admirals and Yonko anymore" because he can't achieve his end-goal that way.
Sanji was going to die from a singular direct attack. Law required his sword to even defend himself, otherwise ALL shown attacks completely pierced his body and exited the other side. Luffy has blunt resist, but Doflamingo could still hurt him with normal kicks.
Huh, this discussion is starting to sound famil--o wait, it's the same shit that i already got through many threads ago. Sick of it at this point. Give up.
@Stef - Cuz there's no other clash between Fuji and Doffy's power. What else could there be? The kick was a threat, before you bring that up. And suggesting G4 vs the Bird Cage despite neither coming into contact is big memes. And Luffy never suggests anything of the sort regarding possibly losing to Fuji. Just that "They are not going to run from the Admirals and Yonko anymore" because he can't achieve his end-goal that way.
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,088
- 5,182
- Thread starter
- #60
https://i5.**********.com/one-piece/798/one-piece-6021763.jpgCinCameron20 said:
- "I can't defeat you... like i always do.."
- "Because you're an admiral.."
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@Stefano; please my dude, don't try to tell me you're actually looking at **********...
That's like instant disqualification from the argument.
That's like instant disqualification from the argument.
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It much better to use MangaSeeOnline as it has translation much closer to the original source - https://*****************/read-online/One-Piece-chapter-798-page-15.html
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@Kobster; in case you didn't know, those are actually the official Viz versions uploaded to MangaSee.
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@Stef - YOU USED ********** TRANSLATIONS AND CALLED IT FACT?!?!?!?!
The actual quote is this: "It's not an option to beat you 'someday' anymore... Who says I have to run just because you're an Admiral? That pattern died 2 years ago." Stop with the BULL
The actual quote is this: "It's not an option to beat you 'someday' anymore... Who says I have to run just because you're an Admiral? That pattern died 2 years ago." Stop with the BULL
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If anyone is going to try and use quotes to try and argue, use Mangalife or Mangasee because both use Viz translations. Otherwise, pull up the official Japanese scans.
Not some fan-translation that has OBVIOUS grammatical issues and contradicting statements.
Not some fan-translation that has OBVIOUS grammatical issues and contradicting statements.
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,088
- 5,182
- Thread starter
- #66
I will admit that i was wrong about that.
But that still doesn't prove that Issho was using his full strength again Gear 2nd/3rd Luffy, and the fight laster too little to be sure of anything.
But that still doesn't prove that Issho was using his full strength again Gear 2nd/3rd Luffy, and the fight laster too little to be sure of anything.
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I do indeed think that Fujitora was not at full power when engaging Luffy since he did have to keep maintaining his power over the hundreds of thousands of rubble in the air.
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Arguing that nothing "proves" he was "using full power", but there's also the fact that nothing proves he was "holding back". The argument is pointless. There's no reason to believe Fuji was holding back, and while he could display more power in the future (Incoming moon drop--please break the verse scaling), that's irrelevant right now.
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So, what the conclusion?
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I don't think there's an overall accepted conclusion, as Damage seems to be against making Doflamingo Low 6-B all together.
But my conclusion is:
1) All High 7-A be upgraded to High 6-C from the same scaling chain, except this time Fujitora is scaling to Luffy and not the other way around.
But my conclusion is:
1) All High 7-A be upgraded to High 6-C from the same scaling chain, except this time Fujitora is scaling to Luffy and not the other way around.
- Law needs some discussion, cuz either he gets a new key for Dressrosa (For High 6-C), or we scale all 7-As to High 6-C (Which seems incredibly nonsensical) for Vergo hurting Law with punches.
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I'm against upgrading both Doflamingo and Fujitora.
When I have time, I will make a CRT to try and tackle Doflamingo specifically because I don't fully agree with his current justifications.
When I have time, I will make a CRT to try and tackle Doflamingo specifically because I don't fully agree with his current justifications.
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,088
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- Thread starter
- #74
I guess this compromise is better than no upgrade at all.Dr.Fix said:
I guess i will had to wait for Oda to bring back Fujitora or Ryokugyu the next arc and hope that they will fight someone at Top Yonko Commander level or Admiral level for a conclusion.
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Hmmm, I guess it fine with Cin's suggestions though we need to invite some other staff members to check this as well as wait to see Damage's CRT on his disagreement
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I suppose now it's time to make a revision thread regarding this topic, and who will be changed.
