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Kepekley23 said:
Madara has to swing after Naruto dodged which is why the heqdbands got cut last
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READ THE OP. The Main Revisions: 2 (This is a Naruto thread)
- Thread starter M3X_2.0
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Madara has to swing after Naruto dodged which is why the heqdbands got cut last
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His impulse was to aim for a decapitation, hence, he swung to the right. Naruto's head was close to the beam when he dodged, thus the logical follow-up attack would be to swing his head to behead. And don't forget the attack was also sloping downwards considerably.M11UTD said:
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Omimi said:
This
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>Madara fires beamKepekley23 said:
>Naruto dodges, tilts his head to the right. Headbands in perfect position to get cut.
>Madara realizes Naruto dodged, so he swung.
>Beam slices headbands.
What's so hard to understand? The beam did NOT cut the headbands straight up, only after Naruto had dodged the beam when he tilts his head to dodged.
There are evidences. People just sleep on them.
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> >Naruto dodges, tilts his head to the right. Headbands in perfect position to get cut.
Headcanon.
Headcanon.
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@Kep, calling something headcanon doesn't make it so. I could say the same about your proposition to the sequence of events that occurred. Why? Because based on the amount of information presented on the scans alone, you cannot come to a definite conclusion regarding whether Naruto dodged the beam or the swing.
@John's explanation of events could just as likely have happened as your explanation. Furthermore, his explanation is supported by the Anime's interpretations of events (Which in almost no way contradicts the manga's rendition of events until you argue Beam dodging/Head swing dodging) and I believe is more accurate than measuring perspective lines (Which also seem to be the same in the Anime) and motion lines (Which can also be argued both ways).
Perspective.
@John's explanation of events could just as likely have happened as your explanation. Furthermore, his explanation is supported by the Anime's interpretations of events (Which in almost no way contradicts the manga's rendition of events until you argue Beam dodging/Head swing dodging) and I believe is more accurate than measuring perspective lines (Which also seem to be the same in the Anime) and motion lines (Which can also be argued both ways).
Perspective.
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@Kep, I could honestly say the same for your side's argument. Difference is that mine is backed up by the second canon, which is far more valuable than any opinion in this thread.
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Interesting to say that someone assume that it is headcanon the fact that people think that Madara has cast the jutsu on their face and demean the Anime (which the Wiki accepts), only to later say that it does not overlap the Manga ...
But when it comes time to prove that Madara has cast the jutsu in the void for just AFTER, try to cut off Naruto, giving him plenty of time to react + ignoring all of Naruto's feats before that ... Backfires, simply because he assumes that Madara is a complete jerk and simply ignores common sense!
But when it comes time to prove that Madara has cast the jutsu in the void for just AFTER, try to cut off Naruto, giving him plenty of time to react + ignoring all of Naruto's feats before that ... Backfires, simply because he assumes that Madara is a complete jerk and simply ignores common sense!
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(This took way too long to type)
I first and foremost wanted to make this post in order to compare the arguments from both sides (Naruto dodged the beam vs Naruto dodged the swing) and to create counterarguments to those saying Naruto dodged the swing. I'll be breaking down the main arguments and comparing them to the counterarguments. (Edit: Took me a while to figure out how to collapse this thing. sorry for any inconvenience)
Madara tilts his head when activating his Rinnega
I've already explained this one earlier, but any apparent "tilt" of Madara's head can easily be explained as the artist emphasizing Madara's Rinnegan activation. The evidence is in Chapter 415 of the Naruto manga in which Sasuke activates his Mangekyo Sharingan's Amaterasu on Bee and you can easily see the emphasis placed on his Sharingan as he does so; the same emphasis that is placed on Madara's Rinnegan.
—————————————————————————————————————————————————— Naruto about to swing down on Madara
This panel is a very important one because this is where the argument that Naruto dodged the swing germinates from. The idea is that using perspective lines to measure Naruto's and Madara's perspective in relation to each other, you can see that Madara's head is tilted to Naruto's right.
Few Responses:
The anime does not really contradict that scan and the perspectives of the characters in both instances are similar. Since this is true and since the anime makes it evident that Naruto dodged the beam, then it would likewise be possible for the same thing to have occurred in the scan.
Of course, some may not like me trying to compare the anime to the manga (even though it doesn't contradict it at any point), so we'll go to response 2 and 3 which have to do with the scans where Naruto is stopped by Madara's Limbo clone.
The 2 panels after Madara activates his limbo clone, features Naruto being stopped mid-air by the Limbo clone.
First and foremost, the perspective lines in the panel where Naruto and Madara are facing each other are different from that of the panel where Naruto's staff is raised, but that's not really my main argument. My response comes from the fact that in the panel below the ones with the perspective lines, it is evident that Naruto's staff is not to the right of his body or anything, but it is actually centered. Do you see how his arm comes into the center of his body (shown by the diagonal line)? This indicates that the staff is actually held in the center of his body. This is easily testable by anyone. Just put your arm out and across from you and you'll see that it's centered. Now, this is important because, in the panel prior, Naruto and Madara are facing each other head-on and so if Naruto's staff is centered, then that's evidence to suggest that they were facing each other directly. Additionally, if (in the panel where they are facing each other) Madara's head was as tilted away from Naruto as the perspective lines make it out to be, then we wouldn't even be seeing half his face in the bottom panel as his head would be slightly turned away.
Finally, in order to say that Madara's head was turned away from Naruto in the bottom panel, you would have to assume that nothing changed in between the time that Naruto's staff was raised to the time that Naruto's staff was brought down. This isn't quite logical as someone explained "Madara is a tactical genius. He isn't tilting his head to the side just to prep his beam when he can just fire it and pierce Naruto's head straight up, and then swing his head for added effect. It just doesn't make sense." However, this is just my headcanon and should not be taken as direct evidence against the Anti-SoL statements laid out (even though they too are headcanon)
———————————————————————————————————————— Naruto's Headband
The claim here is that is is impossible for a beam fired towards the center of Naruto's head to somehow manage to slice both the right and left top sides of the headband.
Few Replies:
Not contradicted by the anime, but I know a lot of you don't like that.
After Madara fired the beam, Naruto dodged and tilted his head to the right placing his headbands in the perfect position to get cut. Madara, realizing his attack missed, swung causing the beam to slice the headbands. Basically "the momentum of Naruto dodging to the side and down would send the headbands upwards and in the line of Madara's head slice". But, someone will say headcanon (even though both arguments are founded on headcanon as everyone is interpreting the manga in their own way.)
Lastly, in this image you can clearly see a piece of Naruto's "headband" flaking off from the rest of it. Now, am I seriously suggesting that Naruto's headband just started falling off for no reason? No, it is quite evident that it's just Naruto's energy wafting off his form...something completely uncontradicted in the anime as seen when Madara cuts his "headband".
—————————————————————————————————————————————————— The direction Naruto's staff flew after being cut
The argument for Naruto dodging the swing here is that the direction which the Naruto's staff is cut suggests Madara swung from left to right.
Few replies:
[Insert "Anime doesn't contradict the manga" statement]. Moving on.
Naruto's sudden movement tilted the rod away and in addition to the fact that it was already in front of him, it is reasonable to conclude that that is the reason why is diverted to the side. (My headcanon again).
I've already stated how Naruto's staff was aligned in the center of his body while he was being stopped by Madara's limbo and that Madara was facing him directly. Thing is, even if Madara's head was turned even a centimeter away from the staff before he fired the beam, his sudden motion would still be in line to pierce through Naruto's head and his swing could still cause the staff to get cut in that manner. (Also my interpretation of the events i.e. headcanon, but so is everyone's interpretation of these scans)
———————————————————————————————————————— Honorable Mentions:
Claim 1: Naruto is more than competent enough to realize that dodging the head swing rather than the beam itself would be much easier and less dangerous than dodging the beam itself.
Reply 1: Naruto doesn't get to decide whether to dodge the beam or the swing...either Madara shot the beam at Naruto or near him. Naruto simply reacted to one situation or the other.
Claim 2: Motion lines
Reply 2: Can be explained in favor of both situations. Look back at the OP
———————————————————————————————————————— For every argument against Naruto dodging the beam, there is a corresponding argument for it. Why does this matter? It means that multiple interpretations can be derived from the manga and neither side has enough evidence to conclusively say Naruto dodged the swing and the beam. Because we are dealing with two positive claims: Naruto dodged the swing vs Naruto dodged the beam, both sides have to deliver evidence to support their claims. Now, if both scenarios are equally as likely and the anime doesn't contradict the scans during any of the scans of that fight thus far, it should be used to solve the invisible scenario in the manga; whatever happened in between Madara firing his beam and Naruto dodging.
In conclusion: Two positive claims are being made: Naruto dodged Madara's swing and Naruto dodged Madara's beam. Both sides need enough evidence to support their claim.
Neither side has enough evidence based on the scans alone to come to a definite conclusion regarding whether Naruto dodged the swing or the beam.
The anime in no way contradicts any of the scenes that occurred in the Manga panels so it should be used as supporting evidence
Since the above is true and both conclusions can be reached by the scans, the Anime technically doesn't contradict the manga in the sense that it clearly showed Naruto dodging the beam; one of the two scenarios that could be concluded based on the manga.
I first and foremost wanted to make this post in order to compare the arguments from both sides (Naruto dodged the beam vs Naruto dodged the swing) and to create counterarguments to those saying Naruto dodged the swing. I'll be breaking down the main arguments and comparing them to the counterarguments. (Edit: Took me a while to figure out how to collapse this thing. sorry for any inconvenience)
Madara tilts his head when activating his Rinnega
I've already explained this one earlier, but any apparent "tilt" of Madara's head can easily be explained as the artist emphasizing Madara's Rinnegan activation. The evidence is in Chapter 415 of the Naruto manga in which Sasuke activates his Mangekyo Sharingan's Amaterasu on Bee and you can easily see the emphasis placed on his Sharingan as he does so; the same emphasis that is placed on Madara's Rinnegan.
—————————————————————————————————————————————————— Naruto about to swing down on Madara
This panel is a very important one because this is where the argument that Naruto dodged the swing germinates from. The idea is that using perspective lines to measure Naruto's and Madara's perspective in relation to each other, you can see that Madara's head is tilted to Naruto's right.
Few Responses:
The anime does not really contradict that scan and the perspectives of the characters in both instances are similar. Since this is true and since the anime makes it evident that Naruto dodged the beam, then it would likewise be possible for the same thing to have occurred in the scan.
Of course, some may not like me trying to compare the anime to the manga (even though it doesn't contradict it at any point), so we'll go to response 2 and 3 which have to do with the scans where Naruto is stopped by Madara's Limbo clone.
The 2 panels after Madara activates his limbo clone, features Naruto being stopped mid-air by the Limbo clone.
First and foremost, the perspective lines in the panel where Naruto and Madara are facing each other are different from that of the panel where Naruto's staff is raised, but that's not really my main argument. My response comes from the fact that in the panel below the ones with the perspective lines, it is evident that Naruto's staff is not to the right of his body or anything, but it is actually centered. Do you see how his arm comes into the center of his body (shown by the diagonal line)? This indicates that the staff is actually held in the center of his body. This is easily testable by anyone. Just put your arm out and across from you and you'll see that it's centered. Now, this is important because, in the panel prior, Naruto and Madara are facing each other head-on and so if Naruto's staff is centered, then that's evidence to suggest that they were facing each other directly. Additionally, if (in the panel where they are facing each other) Madara's head was as tilted away from Naruto as the perspective lines make it out to be, then we wouldn't even be seeing half his face in the bottom panel as his head would be slightly turned away.
Finally, in order to say that Madara's head was turned away from Naruto in the bottom panel, you would have to assume that nothing changed in between the time that Naruto's staff was raised to the time that Naruto's staff was brought down. This isn't quite logical as someone explained "Madara is a tactical genius. He isn't tilting his head to the side just to prep his beam when he can just fire it and pierce Naruto's head straight up, and then swing his head for added effect. It just doesn't make sense." However, this is just my headcanon and should not be taken as direct evidence against the Anti-SoL statements laid out (even though they too are headcanon)
———————————————————————————————————————— Naruto's Headband
The claim here is that is is impossible for a beam fired towards the center of Naruto's head to somehow manage to slice both the right and left top sides of the headband.
Few Replies:
Not contradicted by the anime, but I know a lot of you don't like that.
After Madara fired the beam, Naruto dodged and tilted his head to the right placing his headbands in the perfect position to get cut. Madara, realizing his attack missed, swung causing the beam to slice the headbands. Basically "the momentum of Naruto dodging to the side and down would send the headbands upwards and in the line of Madara's head slice". But, someone will say headcanon (even though both arguments are founded on headcanon as everyone is interpreting the manga in their own way.)
Lastly, in this image you can clearly see a piece of Naruto's "headband" flaking off from the rest of it. Now, am I seriously suggesting that Naruto's headband just started falling off for no reason? No, it is quite evident that it's just Naruto's energy wafting off his form...something completely uncontradicted in the anime as seen when Madara cuts his "headband".
—————————————————————————————————————————————————— The direction Naruto's staff flew after being cut
The argument for Naruto dodging the swing here is that the direction which the Naruto's staff is cut suggests Madara swung from left to right.
Few replies:
[Insert "Anime doesn't contradict the manga" statement]. Moving on.
Naruto's sudden movement tilted the rod away and in addition to the fact that it was already in front of him, it is reasonable to conclude that that is the reason why is diverted to the side. (My headcanon again).
I've already stated how Naruto's staff was aligned in the center of his body while he was being stopped by Madara's limbo and that Madara was facing him directly. Thing is, even if Madara's head was turned even a centimeter away from the staff before he fired the beam, his sudden motion would still be in line to pierce through Naruto's head and his swing could still cause the staff to get cut in that manner. (Also my interpretation of the events i.e. headcanon, but so is everyone's interpretation of these scans)
———————————————————————————————————————— Honorable Mentions:
Claim 1: Naruto is more than competent enough to realize that dodging the head swing rather than the beam itself would be much easier and less dangerous than dodging the beam itself.
Reply 1: Naruto doesn't get to decide whether to dodge the beam or the swing...either Madara shot the beam at Naruto or near him. Naruto simply reacted to one situation or the other.
Claim 2: Motion lines
Reply 2: Can be explained in favor of both situations. Look back at the OP
———————————————————————————————————————— For every argument against Naruto dodging the beam, there is a corresponding argument for it. Why does this matter? It means that multiple interpretations can be derived from the manga and neither side has enough evidence to conclusively say Naruto dodged the swing and the beam. Because we are dealing with two positive claims: Naruto dodged the swing vs Naruto dodged the beam, both sides have to deliver evidence to support their claims. Now, if both scenarios are equally as likely and the anime doesn't contradict the scans during any of the scans of that fight thus far, it should be used to solve the invisible scenario in the manga; whatever happened in between Madara firing his beam and Naruto dodging.
In conclusion: Two positive claims are being made: Naruto dodged Madara's swing and Naruto dodged Madara's beam. Both sides need enough evidence to support their claim.
Neither side has enough evidence based on the scans alone to come to a definite conclusion regarding whether Naruto dodged the swing or the beam.
The anime in no way contradicts any of the scenes that occurred in the Manga panels so it should be used as supporting evidence
Since the above is true and both conclusions can be reached by the scans, the Anime technically doesn't contradict the manga in the sense that it clearly showed Naruto dodging the beam; one of the two scenarios that could be concluded based on the manga.
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>Lastly, in this image you can clearly see a piece of Naruto's "headband" flaking off from the rest of it. Now, am I seriously suggesting that Naruto's headband just started falling off for no reason? No, it is quite evident that it's just Naruto's energy wafting off his form...something completely uncontradicted in the anime as seen when Madara cuts his "headband".
That's false and is an explicit reason of the anime contradicting the manga. In the anime as you showed the thing that came off of Naruto was energy and not his headband while in the manga it is explicitly his headband.
As I've highlighted here, the headband ends have a perfectly flat line and have a forced curve at the top going towards the left which is the same direction the Light Fang was swung towards. With the perfectly aligned similar colored bits directly above these flat ends, it's literally common sense that the headband was cut.
Flat ends.
Curved towards the beam's swung direction.
Same color.
Aligned.
The anime contradicts the manga as the headbands aren't cut.
That's false and is an explicit reason of the anime contradicting the manga. In the anime as you showed the thing that came off of Naruto was energy and not his headband while in the manga it is explicitly his headband.
As I've highlighted here, the headband ends have a perfectly flat line and have a forced curve at the top going towards the left which is the same direction the Light Fang was swung towards. With the perfectly aligned similar colored bits directly above these flat ends, it's literally common sense that the headband was cut.
Flat ends.
Curved towards the beam's swung direction.
Same color.
Aligned.
The anime contradicts the manga as the headbands aren't cut.
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All you have to do now is prove where the Anime contradicts the manga and when Madara threw the laser into the void, only to give Naruto more time to react, to prove that he is an idiot.
Ignoring what Tata and I have said will not get you anywhere, since there is an obvious explanation for that. The anime does not adapt this part, which proves absolutely nothing (since I do not explain what Madara did) at any point, much less and contradicts something.
For me, that only shows despair for some reason.
Ignoring what Tata and I have said will not get you anywhere, since there is an obvious explanation for that. The anime does not adapt this part, which proves absolutely nothing (since I do not explain what Madara did) at any point, much less and contradicts something.
For me, that only shows despair for some reason.
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I don't think being a condescending prick is going to get you support from anyone other than fellow condescending pricks, but go ahead and act like it.MostPowerfull said:
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I agree with Kep.
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I don't see any such debunking, merely mockery pretending to be debunking.M3X said:
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Thanks for proving Regis right, m3x.
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Kep, imade Xul,zen etc make sense here I disagree aswell
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I disagree with this, and in anime LF cannot be categorized as light too since no light will behave like this.
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?? I only say LF in anime cannot be used since it did not behave like light
Nothing to do with LF in manga!
Nothing to do with LF in manga!
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Ignoring M3X's condescending attitude I also agree with Kep considering he is most knowledgeable regarding Naruto.
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- Thread starter
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Spamming "I disagree with the OP" or "I agree with Kep and IMade" wont make this rejected. The thing that you guys are agreeing are being questioned and even debunked. And come here and leave a "I disagree with OP" without reading the arguments wont help too
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Overall Kep and Xulrev have made better, consistent arguments and have yet to stoop to the other side's level, so I have to agree with them.
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"condescending attitude"? Really? Come on dude, everyone here knows that they are only disagreeing over a war between franchises. You have not even read the thread or even know what arguments are being used here. This attitude of wanting only a downgrade in Naruto has already been proven in the other thread where they used ridiculous arguments to deny the speed of the LF, and yet people agreed only because they want a downgrade (or non-acceptance of the thread, anyway)
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Kep was completely debunked. Everything he said can be taken into account for both sides and one of his main arguments, that Madara would not be perpendicular to Naruto and this, therefore, would justify a headswing of Madara, was also adapted in Anime, which makes his assumption fall to the ground.
All they have now, is the cut on Naruto's bandana, which can be explained to both sides, as me and Tata do, although it has not been adapted by Anime. Or, in short, they want to completely disregard Anime (which this WIKI accept as a canon), because he did not adapt a cut in the bandana, which proves absolutely nothing.
All they have now, is the cut on Naruto's bandana, which can be explained to both sides, as me and Tata do, although it has not been adapted by Anime. Or, in short, they want to completely disregard Anime (which this WIKI accept as a canon), because he did not adapt a cut in the bandana, which proves absolutely nothing.
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@Regis
As? I do not understand what you mean by that.
I particularly do not use Anime and therefore ignore this feat. However, there is a grotesquely high difference between the assumptions used in both cases.
As I said above a million times, I do not advocate this feat, but completely repudiate the argument that Madara did a headswing, when we have several things to show backwards. So what I want is proof that Madara threw the laser into the void, just to give more time for reaction. This assumption ignores the feats in the manga, ignores the intelligence of Madara, ignores everything.
If you can not prove me and think me an idiot for asking for this proof (which sounds like an absurdity)... The asshole is not really me, who is accusing someone of prick for asking for evidence.
As? I do not understand what you mean by that.
I particularly do not use Anime and therefore ignore this feat. However, there is a grotesquely high difference between the assumptions used in both cases.
As I said above a million times, I do not advocate this feat, but completely repudiate the argument that Madara did a headswing, when we have several things to show backwards. So what I want is proof that Madara threw the laser into the void, just to give more time for reaction. This assumption ignores the feats in the manga, ignores the intelligence of Madara, ignores everything.
If you can not prove me and think me an idiot for asking for this proof (which sounds like an absurdity)... The asshole is not really me, who is accusing someone of prick for asking for evidence.
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The asshole is generally the guy mocking people and not being able to properly articulate their points, so I wouldn't try too hard to deny it.
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People need to chill one way or the other.
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Nobody has debunk Xulrev
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... OK! I'm not going to answer that, I'm not going to lower myself to your level.
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If you guys can't literally chill, just don't comment and go somewhere else. We don't need attitudes to debate stuff and it's a bit irritating than this kind of thing can't happen without someone blowing up. If you are tired, or irritable, nobody is forcing you to type and you should seriously go cool off before continuing.
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This is an appeal to motive fallacy. Someone could just as easily turn around and say "people agreeing with an upgrade are Naruto wankers who want Naruto to be rated as highly as possible."M3X said:
Maybe people just agree with Kep and IMade because their arguments make more sense?
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It's astounding how people refuse to see the panel in a perspective.
The headbands isn't on Naruto's left, it's BEHIND his head, slightly upwards due to Naruto ducking. The staff is already tilted way towards the right, which isn't its original position when Madara fired the beam.
The headbands isn't on Naruto's left, it's BEHIND his head, slightly upwards due to Naruto ducking. The staff is already tilted way towards the right, which isn't its original position when Madara fired the beam.
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