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Question about dragon ball universe size

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Arthex said:
Nvm I agree with infinite sized dbs universe again, like planet level attack against beings that have like low 2c dura??????
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he literally said that, and made it like a very big deal, meanwhile BoG Goku vs Beerus shake the universe. Dragon Ball is reek of inconsistent on how it is potraying the series. At this point we actually is just being selective and nitpicking what inconsistency we ignore, what inconsistency we pay too much attention on and denying it
You know what, DBH we have SSG Trunks vs Tapion of all people, and SSB Goku being press by Android 17 and 18 from Future Gohan timeline
 
Vietthai96 said:
he literally said that, and made it like a very big deal, meanwhile BoG Goku vs Beerus shake the universe. Dragon Ball is reek of inconsistent on how it is potraying the series. At this point we actually is just being selective and nitpicking what inconsistency we ignore, what inconsistency we pay too much attention on and denying it
You know what, DBH we have SSG Trunks vs Tapion of all people, and SSB Goku being press by Android 17 and 18 from Future Gohan timeline
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Yeah and non mastered golden Freiza was stronger than ssj god goku after whis training and ya know ssj god base Aborsbtion.

I forgot who tapion was but he looks really weak so meh, also wot- shouldn't they be like ssj2 level at max? Even 3 if they trained.
 
Can somebody list all of the staff members who have commented here previously?

If @AKM sama and @Zamasu_Chan each write an explanation post for their respective arguments, I can ask the above-mentioned staff members to take a look at them again.
 
Ultra_instinct_issei said:
Nope.

WTF is this db wank? TOP goku got hurt by a bullet and you are calling him building level?
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That and arcues getting fcked by a asteroid is one of the funniest things I have ever heard.

Also fck my job, I wanted to watch some animes tommorow but I have so much work left, pain.
 
AKM sama said:
A slight error in translation on that part. Earth resides in the solar system in a galactic nebula, the blue translation is missing a word "in" between both sentences.
This doesn't invalidate both of the following statements:
"There is a ruling Kami for each galaxy"
"Universe is divided into 4 galaxies"
As far as we are concerned, Herms has not spoken about these being errors. In fact, he has used them in his own guide. But he never used the statement about the solar system as it is in any of his explanations. If you are claiming the above two statements are also translation errors just because there was one error in another sentence of another paragraph, why not get it confirmed by Herms again on twitter?

Once again, one translation error in one paragraph doesn't invalidate everything else. It's like me saying every word in Dragon Ball manga is wrong because Herms corrected some wrong translation in some random sentence of one chapter. Get it checked by Herms and we can see if he his old word about the relevant statements in particular are outdated or not.

This is proving my point. Daizenshuu is self contradictory.

This solidifies that the info coming from Daizenshuu is self-contradictory. At one place they describe galaxies as a local group of nebulae and planets. At other parts they describe them as something else. Again, proving my point of why we do not use the Daizenshuu anymore.
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AKM this is argument from hypocrisy. You choose to validate the translation despite its mistakes. Yet you want to throw away the daizenshuu entirely because of how it defines galaxy. Hot only is that hypocritical but it's also an association fallacy.

Regardless if it says galaxy or not, it's not the traditional term for galaxy. A nebula is a gathering of planets, but a galaxy is a gathering of local planets in the universe. That's how the daizenshuu defines a galaxy. A third piece of evidence for galaxies havin an irregular term.

Even if that term was changed in the future, that only means that galaxy statement was retconned. The galaxy and infinite space statements have nothing to do with one another.
Galaxies are stated to stretch 100s of millions light years
They're said to infinitely expand
Galaxies are straight up defined as local planets in the universe
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Daizenshuu also switches from galaxy to areas, showing the intent behind the matter. If galaxies are defined as being that big then you'd need more evidence that daizenshuu is saying the living world is 4 regular sized galaxies.

Since this is the root of your argument, I need not to go over trivialities for the sake of time.
AKM sama said:
@Zamasu_Chan if what you are claiming is true, we have a very easy solution out of this. Get Herms to admit that all these statements about how Daizenshuu claims there are only 4 galaxies a total of 2 times never happened and they were all mistranslations, and I won't have a point anymore. Is that cool?
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Sure.
 
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After doing some research, here I am.

The main point of contention is about the fact that the Daizenshuu seems to mention that the universe is made up "4 Galaxies", which would be contradictory.

However, this is being heavily taken out of context. Let's look at it.

(The scans are from Chonzenshuu 4/ Daizenshuu 7, their text is the same)



Those scans do say that the universe is divided into 4 Galaxies.

However, as I said, this is being taken out of context.
Look here :



In these two scans, the infamous "4 galaxies" are mentioned, but then it is also mentioned that there are infinite actual galaxies in the universe.

This would seem like a contradiction, but it's not.

In fact, both the English and Japanese scan mention the fact that the terms "West/South/North/East" are just denominations/units that the gods use through their duty to supervise outer space, which is filled with galaxies.

This is consistent with the fact that, as Zamasu said, the Daizenshuu seems to switch from "4 Galaxies" to "4 areas/sections/sectors", which is something the blue scan I posted above also does.


This is already pointing out that such contradictions are nonexistent. However, it's not over.

The opposition here brought up three messages that came from Herms,the most famous Dragon Ball translator, and specifically from the Kanzenshuu :



Here, it seems that Herms was talking about the fact that the guidebooks and the Daizenshuu both stated that the Dragon Ball universe had "only 4 galaxies", which would've solidified the opposition's points.

Well, no. Aside from the fact that Herms clearly states that it's open up to interpretation, some of those pics cut off important parts of Herms's posts. Look here :



(Sorry for the double pic)

Herms himself admits that the "4 galaxies" are just denominations used by the gods,in reference to the Daizenshuu.

In the 3rd image he even proceeds to say that "Galaxy" in the "4 galaxies" sentence has nothing to do with the astronomical term, and that using the term "Area" would be more correct.

And this solidifies the fact that the "galaxies that exist infinitely" statement, and generally speaking the statements from the Guidebooks about the infinite universe are reliable, otherwise Herms would've corrected them (as in he would've corrected the translations).

As we can clearly see, he didn't. Which means these statements are actually fine/consistent.

Herms mentions that infinite galaxies in a universe sound weird to him, but tbh it's likely that he was using RL logic which does not work here.

So, in conclusion, the Daizenshuu statements are not self contradictory, and those arguments came from the fact that a scan was being taken out of context.

With all the other scans Zamasu Chan and others posted about the universe, I can safely conclude that the Dragon Ball universe is High 3-A or Infinite in size.
I just wanted to make clarifications on the whole 4 Galaxies mess.
 
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It doesn't really matter what the source book says. The manga and anime have both never shown this infinite darkness. Until it's actually shown to exist, there really is nothing to change. It's all speculation. It's bad form to update the profiles based off unconfirmed evidence of a secondary source. And not to mention there are also people using materials that allege there to be infinite amount of galaxies and stars. So which is it? They both can't be correct, Until the anime or manga confirms either theory, you'd get a possibly, at the very best leniency.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
It doesn't really matter what the source book says. The manga and anime have both never shown this infinite darkness. Until it's actually shown to exist, there really is nothing to change. It's all speculation. It's bad form to update the profiles based off unconfirmed evidence of a secondary source. And not to mention there are also people using materials that allege there to be infinite amount of galaxies and stars. So which is it? They both can't be correct, Until the anime or manga confirms either theory, you'd get a possibly, at the very best leniency.
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IDK, i know GT once said there are "Boundless galaxies" in the universe or some thing.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
It doesn't really matter what the source book says. The manga and anime have both never shown this infinite darkness. Until it's actually shown to exist, there really is nothing to change. It's all speculation. It's bad form to update the profiles based off unconfirmed evidence of a secondary source. And not to mention there are also people using materials that allege there to be infinite amount of galaxies and stars. So which is it? They both can't be correct, Until the anime or manga confirms either theory, you'd get a possibly, at the very best leniency.
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I smell downgrade for multiple infinite speed verses that use guidebook and many others
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
It doesn't really matter what the source book says. The manga and anime have both never shown this infinite darkness. Until it's actually shown to exist, there really is nothing to change. It's all speculation. It's bad form to update the profiles based off unconfirmed evidence of a secondary source. And not to mention there are also people using materials that allege there to be infinite amount of galaxies and stars. So which is it? They both can't be correct, Until the anime or manga confirms either theory, you'd get a possibly, at the very best leniency.
Click to expand...
Actually false. Yakons planet exists so far away from the universe where no light reaches their planet. The planet is visually pitch black on the surface.
 
Vietthai96 said:
I smell downgrade for multiple infinite speed verses that use guidebook and many others
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If a verse gets a rating for something that only exists in a guidebook and not ever mentioned in story, then why should it?


FluffyCreatureZ said:
Actually false. Yakons planet exists so far away from the universe where no light reaches their planet. The planet is visually pitch black on the surface.
Click to expand...
how does this prove anything except Yakon’s planet is really far?
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
It doesn't really matter what the source book says. The manga and anime have both never shown this infinite darkness. Until it's actually shown to exist, there really is nothing to change. It's all speculation. It's bad form to update the profiles based off unconfirmed evidence of a secondary source. And not to mention there are also people using materials that allege there to be infinite amount of galaxies and stars. So which is it? They both can't be correct, Until the anime or manga confirms either theory, you'd get a possibly, at the very best leniency.
Click to expand...
Yes, anime and manga have never shown infinite darkness, however they never rejected it too. if you think guidebooks are just speculations, go downgrade every verse there is that uses a guidebook similar to dragon ball and then i will agree.

In short, if you have proof manga and anime show that the darkness is fnite, then the guidebook dosent matter. But they don't, so that should allow us to use the secondary source.
 
Arthex said:
Yes, anime and manga have never shown infinite darkness, however they never rejected it too. if you think guidebooks are just speculations, go downgrade every verse there is that uses a guidebook similar to dragon ball and then i will agree.
Click to expand...

I didn't say that guidebooks are just speculations. They supplement the source material. It's just that in this case, the guide books can't be used to supplement something that currently doesn't exist in the manga or anime. Right now were just stuck in this limbo phrase.

Now if there are verses that are getting ratings from things that only exist in secondary material and have no base in the primary material, then I will argue against that.

Arthex said:
In short, if you have proof manga and anime show that the darkness is fnite, then the guidebook dosent matter. But they don't, so that should allow us to use the secondary source.
Click to expand...

Why are you asking me to show proof about the characteristics of something that doesn't show up in the anime or manga? That's impossible.

The argument isn't that the darkness is infinite or finite. The argument is that there is no proof it exists in the show or manga. Both the manga and the anime have shown many aspects of the cosmology of the verse, and many details. If the infinite darkness exist, why hasn't it been shown or pointed out?

FluffyCreatureZ said:
It proves the darkness stretching out beyond the universe like you asked. It's literally stated and shown.
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No it doesn't.

Yakon debuted in 1994. This is far beyond the existence of DBS. You would have to prove that this infinite darkness existed in DBZ, before the cosmological retcon.
 
Both the manga and the anime have shown many aspects of the cosmology of the verse, and many details. If the infinite darkness exist, why hasn't it been shown or pointed out?
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That makes sense honestly-
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
What the hell are you talking about? Yakon IS from dbz. This carries over to dbs.


it's also visibly pitch black in the manga with no stars in the background.
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I said the episode debuted in 1994. The cosmology was retconed over a decade later when DBS came out.
Unless you’re going to prove the dragon ball z universe is infinite.

also, you can see stars and planets in the very same clip:

 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
I said the episode debuted in 1994. The cosmology was retconed over a decade later when DBS came out.
Unless you’re going to prove the dragon ball z universe is infinite.

also, you can see stars and planets in the very same clip:

Click to expand...
Retconned like how? And why does it affect this specific statement.
Yeah that only happens after goku transforms when he's emitting light. It also never happens in the manga. In the manga, the entire scene with the planet is a completely pitch black background.
@Zamasu_Chan here's the manga version of the statement where the dark abyss is mentioned.
9.jpg
 
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