Question about dragon ball universe size

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

The multiverse for one.

DBS introduced the multiverse, yes. That doesn't mean the Yakon stuff got retconned. The cosmology just got expanded.

If you have proof of such a retcon, be my guest. But right now this argument doesn't work.

Guidebooks can expand some aspects of the source material which aren't covered that well in universe, btw.
"Muh it's not showed" is a weak argument.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

The multiverse for one.

A planet of darkness at the edge of the universe.

I did not know that planet nemesis existed in dragon ball world as well.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Ngl the arguement that guidebooks should be scrapped because they said something that was not said in the main material is plain stupid.
It misses the entire point of why Guidebooks are made in the first place. This arguement invalidate the entire existence of guides, its worse than throwing out baby with the bathwater.
Guidebooks are made for sole reason of reinforcing already existing information with elaboration or providing extra information which was not mentioned in main material.
That's why they are called supplementary material.
Look up the meaning of Supplement and its variants.

Definition of SUPPLEMENT

something that completes or makes an addition; dietary supplement; a part added to or issued as a continuation of a book or periodical to correct errors or make additions… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Definition of SUPPLEMENTARY

added or serving as a supplement : additional; being or relating to a supplement or a supplementary angle… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

The primary goal of guidebooks is to provide extra information, something the source may or may not have spoken of. That's why these companies make these, that's why it sells.

Also in a bid to stop infinite DB you guys are callously threatening all the other medias and verses which depend on guides for various purposes, from major feats to littlest haxxes. Animes, Movies, Manga, comics, shows, games.... everyone suffers for this.
Unless you want mass anarchy on site in response to trying to scrap guides, refrain from making callous arguements.

 

[Arthex]

The argument above makes the most sense tbh.

 

[Maskofthedragon]

The Daizenshuu and the efforts made writing them being praised by Toriyama and getting a functional reprint almost 20 years later really puts them into being one of the most trustworthy guidebooks out there

 

[KLOL506]

Jesus ******* Christ why did this delve into a "Scrap all guidebooks" warzone?

Say what you will about the DB Universe's size, but no, we're not gonna scrap guidebooks completely. Ever. We'll accept what matches with the guidebook and reject what doesn't. We've always done it that way. Consistency comes first. If a guidebook adds on to a series without contradicting anything, there's no visible reason to axe it. Guidebooks aren't just solely about feats and descriptions, they can also shed considerable light on the powerscaling of a verse. This is literally the textbook definition of "Cutscenes or else non-canon" argument, which I don't have to tell you, will never fly on this site.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Hell, even if a guidebook does something contradictory, in that case only the contradictory info will be axxed exclusively.
Not the entire guidebook, certainly not ALL the guidebooks in existence.

 

[KLOL506]

Hell, even if a guidebook does something contradictory, in that case only the contradictory info will be axxed exclusively.
Not the entire guidebook, certainly not ALL the guidebooks in existence.

PRETTY MUCH. There's a reason guidebooks are a case-by-case thing for all verses.

 

[KLOL506]

Another friendly reminder that just because Dragon Ball's guidebooks has contradictions here and there doesn't mean that the entire guidebook gets invalidated, and that certainly will never mean that all other guidebooks get rejected as a whole due to the slightest of contradictions. I wish people would stop with this dumb association fallacy once and for all.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Another friendly reminder that just because Dragon Ball's guidebooks has contradictions here and there doesn't mean that the entire guidebook gets invalidated, and that certainly will never mean that all other guidebooks get rejected as a whole due to the slightest of contradictions. I wish people would stop with this dumb association fallacy once and for all.

I concur with this.

Although as I pointed out there shouldn't be contradictions in Dragon Ball's Guidebooks. Not in this case at least.

 

[Arthex]

So like does that mean high 3a is reality?

 

[KLOL506]

So like does that mean high 3a is reality?

Honestly, given the current situation, I'm declaring myself neutral with no lean on either side.

 

[Arthex]

Wasn't the whole argument was the guidebook not being valid and all, which just got "semi-debunked" by your and gilvir's replies.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

So like does that mean high 3a is reality?

Nope, Zamasu already tried to upgrade GT to 2-C with scans from Toei and Guidebook statements, but he failed iirc

I fear here will happen the same sadly...

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Wasn't the whole argument was the guidebook not being valid and all, which just got "semi-debunked" by your and gilvir's replies.

The argument for it not being valid was the whole "4 Galaxies" stuff, which I took care of.

At least that was the main argument as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

I also agree that Guidebooks shouldn't be scrapped for the sake of one verse.
Heck, 40 % of the Wiki verses get their rating from Guidebooks.


But the thing is, well, I wouldn't be opposed to High 3-A if it didn't mean that characters would be getting infinite speed.
Which it's highly debeatable.

That would mean that characters such as Saiyan Saga Piccolo are already infinite in speed, becouse his ki blast crossed the "infinite" space in a really short amount of time and destroyed the Moon.

Or that Nappa's and Vegeta's spaceships were also infinite in speed, despite taking months to reach Earth in the Saiyan Saga too.

I'm sure you guys would argue and try to tell me that those two feats I meantioned above also translate to infinite speed.

But from the looks of it, this will be a massive mess....

 

[KLOL506]

I also agree that Guidebooks shouldn't be scrapped for the sake of one verse.
Heck, 40 % of the Wiki verses get their rating from Guidebooks.

But the thing is, well, I wouldn't be oppose to High 3-A if it didn't mean that characters would be getting infinite speed.
Which it's highly debeatable.

That would mean that characters such as Saiyan Saga Piccolo are already infinite in speed, becouse his ki blast crossed the "infinite" space in a really short amount of time and destroyed the Moon.

LMFAO what?

Or that Nappa's and Vegeta's spaceships were also infinite in speed, despite taking months to reach Earth in the Saiyan Saga too.

Pretty sure the "infinite size" part applies only to the darkness beyond the observable universe's light.

 

[Arthex]

I also agree that Guidebooks shouldn't be scrapped for the sake of one verse.
Heck, 40 % of the Wiki verses get their rating from Guidebooks.


But the thing is, well, I wouldn't be oppose to High 3-A if it didn't mean that characters would be getting infinite speed.
Which it's highly debeatable.

That would mean that characters such as Saiyan Saga Piccolo are already infinite in speed, becouse his ki blast crossed the "infinite" space in a really short amount of time and destroyed the Moon.

Or that Nappa's and Vegeta's spaceships were 8also infinite in speed, despite taking months to reach Earth in the Saiyan Saga too.

I'm sure you guys would argue and try to tell me that those two feats I meantioned above also translate to infinite speed.

But from the looks of it, this will be a massive mess....

There will be a another thread for infinite speed, you can debate if you dont agree there.

As for everyone being infinite speed, deal with it.

You dont have problems with everyone being ftl from frieza saga, do you?

 

[Arthex]

Dont disagree with a upgrade just cause it upgrades almost all of the ppl to infinite speed, thats just showing how much you hate a series(which ik you dont)

Tho Db being infinite would never get accepted tbh, I bet on that.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

You dont have problems with everyone being ftl from frieza saga, do you?

Again, FTL is reasonable.

But Infinite speed would be too incosistent if it's started from that saga

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Speed can be dealt with in another thread. This thread is about the size of the universe.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

LMFAO what?

It's true tho, the Beam literally crossed that distance through the "space" and destroyed the Moon. I'm refering to Piccolo's feat from the Saiyan Saga.


Goku doesn't have space travel feats, yet if infinite speed gets accepted he would scale, so that's the problem on question.

 

[Arthex]

Again, FTL is reasonable.

But Infinite speed would be too incosistent if it's started from that saga

Again don't agree with infinite speed but atleast dont oppose high 3a cuz of it.

 

[Arthex]

the funniest thing is, if inf speed gets accepted, db would be finally on the list of fastest characters of infinite tier, even above arcues i daresay.

 

[KLOL506]

It's true tho, the Beam literally crossed that distance through the "space" and destroyed the Moon. I'm refering to Piccolo's feat from the Saiyan Saga.

That on its own means nothing when the guidebook itself states the infinite darkness to be beyond the light of the observable universe.

It's not like we're gonna call the space between our Earth and Moon as infinite if scientists one day found undeniable, concrete proof for our universe to be infinite in size now, would we? No, so why would we do this for DB Earth and Moon based on BS technicalities? That just sounds absurd as **** to me.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

It's true tho, the Beam literally crossed that distance through the "space" and destroyed the Moon. I'm refering to Piccolo's feat from the Saiyan Saga.

A blast that goes from the Earth to the Moon definitely doesn't need to cross all of space. Just the distance between Earth and the Moon, which is finite.

 

[KLOL506]

Speed can be dealt with in another thread. This thread is about the size of the universe.

Speed shouldn't even be a factor in Pre-Buu Saga DBZ at all. The infinite size stuff would only affect DBZ Buu Saga Toei feats, DBGT Feats and DBS feats in both anime and manga. Which I agree can be left out for the other thread if this gets accepted.

 

[KLOL506]

A blast that goes from the Earth to the Moon definitely doesn't need to cross all of space. Just the distance between Earth and the Moon, which is finite.

See? It's not like we assume other infinite-sized universes in other verses to have infinite distance between their Earth and Moon system. That'd be ******* asinine.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Again don't agree with infinite speed but atleast dont oppose high 3a cuz of it.

The problem is, that moving in a High 3-A realm with speed is infinite speed by default.
At least by this site standarts.

High 3-A and MFTL+ would be more accurate in my opinion, but anyways, that's not up to me, that depends on everyone else opinion and a 80% on Staff decission.

 

[Arthex]

I completely agree with ppl above

 

[KLOL506]

The problem is, that moving in a High 3-A realm with speed is infinite speed by default.
At least by this site standarts.

No, it's not. You're misunderstanding how site standards work. You can put a finite sized object in an infinite sized realm and it would not grow to become infinite. That's like saying movement in space in the IRL universe would become infinite if scientists one day found irreversible proof that the universe is infinite. Which can't happen anyway because it changes nothing about the current observable universe we have unless someone majorly ***** up the natural order of things in the universe.

High 3-A and MFTL+ would be more accurate in my opinion, but anyways, that's not up to me, that depends on everyone else opinion and a 80% on Staff decission.

No it wouldn't, basic common sense indicates that a universe being infinite in size would not just suddenly change the size of the observable universe in any meaningful way whatsoever. DB Solar System is blow for blow a 1:1 replica of our solar system, why you would assume Earth-Moon distance to be infinite when not even the Guidebooks or visuals indicate as such is beyond me.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

No, it's not. You're misunderstanding how site standards work. You can put a finite sized object in an infinite sized realm and it would not grow to become infinite.

It is, you guys just said that characters would be Infinite in speed just becouse they move fast on a infinite space.
You will treat Whis feat as infinite, despite him taking like, 30 minutes to reach Earth. "Just becouse moving an infinite distance within a finite amount of time"

I'm not trying to sound rude, I'm trying to be as polite as possible, but I think I have the right to express my discomfort with it.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

It is, you guys just said that characters would be Infinite in speed just becouse they move fast on a infinite space.

I definitely don't remember anyone saying that.

 

[KLOL506]

It is, you guys just said that characters would be Infinite in speed just becouse they move fast on a infinite space.

That's... not how it works.

We said they'd be Infinite speed because they traversed THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE and that they'd be able to outpace attacks fast enough to cover THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE.

You will treat Whis feat as infinite, despite him taking like, 30 minutes to reach Earth. "Just becouse moving an infinite distance within a finite amount of time"

You mean 10 seconds to cover THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE beyond the edge as seen in the Arale Episode which undeniably involves the infinite darkness.

I'm not trying to sound rude, I'm trying to be as polite as possible, but I think I have the right to express my discomfort with it.

You're expressing discomfort for wrong, misplaced and out-of-context reasons.

We don't give Infinite speed to characters willy-nilly just because they travelled a portion of an infinite-sized realm, they need to fully cover the infinite-sized realm in its entirety or the portion of it which is stated to be infinite in size.

It's why lighting up infinite-sized realms in their entirety counts as an AP feat, and a speed feat if someone outpaces that specific light. This isn't a new concept, there are multiple feats on this scale in many verses.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

They would scale from BoG onwards because they reacted to a light which engulfed an hypothetical infinite universe in seconds.

Welp that's another issue, but anyways

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

But the thing is, well, I wouldn't be opposed to High 3-A if it didn't mean that characters would be getting infinite speed.
Which it's highly debeatable.

Let me tell you some facts of reality bruv....

Just because some characters """supposedly""" performed some insane impossible feats or some weaksauce pathetic feats, doesn't mean jackshit for cosmology.
Properties/Attributes of cosmology or geography are one side..... feats on different side. While former can affect later, it doesn't give us right to invalidate intrinsic properties of world around us or in fiction.
If an instance of feat is an outlier.... then that alone and exclusively that is outlier. It has zero bearing on other feats, especially it has no job being used as excuse to prove cosmology/geagraphy isn't as impressive as it should be.

This isn't just for DB, it goes for any verse.
Time and time again I have seen that moment some cosmology or geographic upgrade is about to take place some people just say "muh but these feats would become to big.... muh outlier" and just declining the upgrades to ******* intrinsic attributes of locations.
I have seen this happen with Bleach and Naruto with sizes of Seretei and Ninja Nations..... its just completely ********.

For the love of god can people stop being so stupid and careless??

That would mean that characters such as Saiyan Saga Piccolo are already infinite in speed, becouse his ki blast crossed the "infinite" space in a really short amount of time and destroyed the Moon.

Or that Nappa's and Vegeta's spaceships were also infinite in speed, despite taking months to reach Earth in the Saiyan Saga too.

I have no words for these.... I legit lost my brain cells. Tell me how you don't understand how infinite works without telling me how you don't understand how infinite works.

You enlightened person.... just because universe is infinite doesn't mean distance between every point is infinite. Even 7th grade mathematics is enough to know that.
Basic principle in coordinate geometry, take two points A(x1,y2) and B(x2,y2) and you will always find there is finite distance between both.
Only way you would get infinite distance is if you choose one or both points at infinity, which is entirely okay because size of coordinate axis is infinite.

 

[KLOL506]

Welp that's another issue, but anyways

No, there is no "anyways" to discuss here. They reacted to a light that travelled faster than their fists' shockwaves which would destroy the physical universe. End of Story, Goodbye, The End. The reaction part is legit, that's not going to change. As for what speed it should be, is not for this thread, and should not be. Leave it for another thread if this thread gets accepted. If not, we just stick with the MFTL+ calc that we have now. That simple.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

No, there is no "anyways" to discuss here. They reacted to a light that travelled faster than their fists' shockwaves which would destroy the physical universe. End of Story, Goodbye, The End.

I mean, even if the Universe is "infinite"

Engulfing the universe in 10 seconds is not infinite speed, unlike Gilver said, it takes time, the very meaning of infinite speed is something "instant"..,taking at least 2 seconds is not instant by default.
Just a massive MFTL+ scaling.

Or at least that's how I understand it.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I mean, even if the Universe is "infinite"

Engulfing the universe in 10 seconds is not infinite speed, unlike Gilver said, it takes time, the very meaning of infinite speed is something "instant"..,taking at least 2 seconds is not instant by default.
Just a massive MFTL+ scaling.

Or at least that's how I understand it.

Can you like stop talking about speed for 5 seconds atleast??
Its derailing the thread.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Can you like stop talking about speed for 5 seconds atleast??
Its derailing the thread.

I think it's an important matter, but anyways