Problem with current Smash Bros stats (mostly involving Master Hand)

[Kepekley23]

It's simple. The concept of time persists even when it's stopped. Zero time is not the same as time not existing.

In order for Smash Dialga to be Low 2-C, he'd need to have created time. He did not.

 

[Kepekley23]

@AN

Assuming Arceus is interpreted as "possibly 3-A" with the "world and sky" statement, Master Hand would automatically scale to its "possibly 3-A"

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Technically speaking, the statements for both Smash Dialga and Canon are pretty much the same, yet we obviously accept canon Dialga creating time. So why isnt it a double standard to suddenly deny Smash Dialga of that, especially when in Smash verse statements mention the Sinnoh legends of the CT?

Also, I feel I should mention that even if Smash Dialga isnt Low 2-C, there is still the matter of Arceus. MH is ridiculously superior to Arceus for reasons already brought up.

 

[Link_Eternal]

I agree that the concept exists even if time is stopped, but if it was never in motion, then there was no concept of time, thus, it was not "stopped". Hence it is not proven to have existed before Dialga's birth.

 

[Kepekley23]

@Kukui

No, Game Dialga's lore says time was created by him, and even then, the Pokémon Adventures manga reinforces such a thing. Otherwise it'd be just as unfounded as Smash and choosing the highest interpretation.

@Link

That's not how it works, my dude. Time being stopped means everything happens at the exact same time (0). Not that there is no concept of time.

 

[The_Everlasting]

It doesn't matter if the two statements are similar. The Smash entry says one thing, Canon says another. We cannot extrapolate the statement in Smash to say it means the same as the one in Canon.

 

[Link_Eternal]

I'm trying to wrap my head around this.

So, the world was created,

Space - When Palkia was born it gained control of said space, though never stated to be involved in the birth of it.

Time(assumed frozen) - When Dialga was born time was set in motion, Dialga also gained complete control of it.

This is about the general gist?

 

[Kepekley23]

Seems like it.

 

[Link_Eternal]

OK so all of that happened at the exact same time, meaning:

At the very moment the world came into Dialga moves time and Palkia controls space.

This is looking like Dialga created time to me, if there is no separation between the world being created and a being being born that controls time. For what you said to be true, time had to have existed before the world did.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Basically I think that space and time were already there, they just needed a catalyst to set them in "motion"

 

[Link_Eternal]

This becomes a debate over whether or not time and space existed before they were created.

 

[Kepekley23]

But nothing suggests they created their respective elements.

Even the original canon seems to suggest Palkia did not create space, considering it states space expanded from a still state once he was born

 

[Link_Eternal]

Palkia gained control of space, you cannot gain control of something that is not there, so this suggests Palkia did not create space. I highly doubt Palkia created space, personally.

Dialga, on the other hand was said to set time in motion, if Dialga did not create time, would they not have used a phrase closer in wording to Palkia? This implies that there was not time before Dialga, and nothing suggests anything to the contrary.

 

[Kepekley23]

If Smash Dialga had created time, they would have used the words "created time" as opposed to deliberately making the whole thing vague.

 

[Link_Eternal]

Not if Dialga's existence = the existence of time. Dialga did not create itself

 

[Kepekley23]

"Its birth created time" would've gotten the point across nicely.

Instead, all trophies imply time being stopped and Dialga unfreezing it with his birth

 

[Link_Eternal]

But thats not very entertaining, this is flavor text.

Also, if Dialga did unfreeze it, what tier is that?

 

[Kepekley23]

That's drifting into author intent territory.

No tier, just a good Time Manipulation feat.

 

[Mand21]

Um, isn't "being time" merely High 3-A? The universe is more than just time 'n' all.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I called Azzy. Given he's the one that upgraded them to "3-A, possibly Low 2-C" originally and thought the previous ratings were hilarious downplay, he'd have an opinion.

 

[Kepekley23]

Dude, why are you mixing Canon with Smash?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Are you talking to me?

 

[Kepekley23]

Yes.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Except I'm not..? "Them" referred to Master Hand and Crazy Hand, not the Creation Trio.

 

[Kepekley23]

Oh, sorry. lmao

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It's all good, man lol.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Are we still disregarding that there is the thing that infinitely renders space?

 

[Kepekley23]

Well, I did ask for the original translation.

 

[Link_Eternal]

Giving a different suggestion to the flavor text also delves into author intent.

 

[Kepekley23]

No it does not. It dwelves into what is written.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

I don't have an original on me. I can look for it.

 

[DetectiVE899]

All of the "scaling to the creation trio" stuff doesn't make sense if you think who owns the trophies of them, which is the player, not Master Hand.

There.

 

[Dark649]

You can buy the trophies at the shop in 4, we don't know who owns them,

 

[DetectiVE899]

I'd also like to point out that the "source of creation" statement has two translations (European and American) meaning it would be better to get the original Japanese script to see what it says. (Someone might have already done this, I'm not sure).

 

[DetectiVE899]

You can buy the trophies at the shop in 4, we don't know who owns them.

Exactly why you shouldn't assume Master Hand has them.

Even then, if Master Hand did own all the extra trophies, he'd have to own a trophy of himself and the core of himself that rips out of his body.

 

[Mand21]

What's wrong with trying to scale a story by minding author intent?

 

[Link_Eternal]

People don't always agree on what the author intends.

 

[CursedGentleman]

Or else Dante would be 3-A but let's not dwell on that

 

[Friendlysociopath]

Are we still disregarding that there is the thing that infinitely renders space?

I mean, it clearly did not do that when fired. It made one bubble that every given ship was outspeeding, if the bubble was continuing to grow at all after the initial expansion.

@Mand21

What's wrong with trying to scale a story by minding author intent?

1) You do not know author intent aside from Master Hand having something to do with creating/forming the verse. Beginning and end of solid knowledge.

2) Stuff like scaling to the trio is pure fanon with nothing insisting it's true, at all, beyond someone saying it has to be true.

3) Subspace cutscenes (the time where Smash actually has a story) grossly lack any sort of universal-scale destruction. Tabuu required a ton of equipment, an army, and plotting to even start absorbing one planet, let alone an entire universe. Tabuu apparently beats Master Hand as well.

 

[Mand21]

Or else Dante would be 3-A but let's not dwell on that

ok I'm convinced